Talk:Moira Deeming

Moira Deeming is currently a Politics and government good article nominee. Nominated by TarnishedPath^talk at 12:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

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Short description: Australian politician

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Date of birth

In a Federal Court Affidavit dated 27 May 2024, Moira Deeming gives her date-of-birth as 1983. A copy of the Affidavit is accessible online. I note that the Wikipedia article on Moira Deeming is semi-protected, and I'm not sure how to include this information. Research17 (talk) 19:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Done St Anselm (talk) 21:34, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have a secondary source covering her DOB? Per WP:BLPPRIMARY we shouldn’t use trial transcripts or other court documents to establish facts in BLPs and should exercise extreme caution with the use of other primary sources in BLPs. TarnishedPath^talk 01:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's more a case of WP:BLPSELFPUB. I thought I was using it judiciously, just for year and town of birth. I think we generally accept people saying on Twitter "it's my birthday", and this struck me as a similar situation. St Anselm (talk) 02:21, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@StAnselm I've started a discussion at WP:BLP/N to get community input as I'd like to know which part of the WP:BLP policy takes precedence.

See WP:BLP/N#Moira Deeming. TarnishedPath^talk 11:13, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:DOB It seems to me that we need to consider: Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object to the details being made public. An affidavit in court is not "widely published" nor can it "reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object to the details being made public". Schazjmd (talk) 14:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would have thought absolutely that could be reasonably inferred. It's making certain details public. St Anselm (talk) 15:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not necessarily voluntarily. Being compelled to say something under oath, for example. Schazjmd (talk) 15:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read the filing? St Anselm (talk) 15:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree with Schazjmd, being in a court document doesn't make the birth date 'widely' published, and I don't think this is the type of thing that was envisioned by SELFPUB. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:20, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-Trans Rally

This has become a WP:SOAPbox, rather than an attempt to improve the article. Either provide reliable sources per WP:RS to support changing the article, or move on. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 12:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Despite what the media has demonstrated the rally in question was not "anti-trans" as many depict it as it is a rally fighting for support for women spaces in sports and facilities against trans people. There needs to be an amendment to this. Throttler (talk) 04:49, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's playing with words. The final three words of your first sentence clarify things. HiLo48 (talk) 05:40, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was a rally for womens rights. Political opponents have portrayed it as antitrans. This article fails to adopt a neutral stance, despite a nomination for good article status.Mattymmoo (talk) 06:53, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We depend on what reliable sources say. We have sources describing the rally as anti-trans. Can you provide any that describe it as a rally for women's rights? HiLo48 (talk) 09:28, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do yourself a favour and read WP:NPOV. We go where the reliable sources take us. TarnishedPath^talk 10:21, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to do yourself a favour as the federal court documents on paragraph 5 explicitly stated that Moira "attended and briefly spoke at a 'Let Women Speak' rally on the steps of Parliament House in Melbourne". Actually the court documents mentioned 28-times "let woman speak" and 80-times "LWS" ("let women speak rally" was 3 times while "LWS Rally" was 74-times). Would you consider a judgement document to a court case where Moira has won reliable?

https://www.judgments.fedcourt.gov.au/judgments/Judgments/fca/single/2024/2024fca1430

Maybe instead of being condescending and bureaucratically pointing out the "rules and regulations" without any form of guidance, you work with the people's grievances who are genuinely contributing by offering solutions to the issue otherwise Wikipedia will still be the unauthorised source of information that cannot be relied upon as it is demonstrates biased perceptions from the media and their editors. Throttler (talk) 20:16, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think everyone in this thread is well aware that the rally was called “Let Women Speak”, but we’re also well aware that the rally was explicitly an anti-trans rally. That was its entire purpose. And that assessment is backed up in many reliable sources. GraziePrego (talk) 21:37, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, what organisers called an event in a transparent act of doublespeak is of little concern for us. The nature of the event as described by numerous reliable sources in use in the article is of importance to us. TarnishedPath^talk 21:58, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

... and what do you define as reliable source? You choose a media when it is an opinion of the journalist and therefore it is not fact. The connotations between "Let Women Speak" as to "Anti-trans" are diametrically opposed where one demonstrate the rights for the woman to speak about their own safety freely while the other demonstrates negatively towards a particular group. It is such labelling that has caused the defamation case to exist when it shouldn't. Throttler (talk) 23:41, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Throttler if you're going to decide that policies like WP:RS can be ignored to suit your WP:POVPUSH then we have little to discuss. TarnishedPath^talk 00:57, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Once again you bureaucratically apply rules and regulations and offer no assistance for an average person. Throttler (talk) 04:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The assistance is to go read WP:RS. If you have reliable sources that comprehensively agree that the rally is as you described, then it can be changed. Otherwise we leave it as it is now, as we have plenty of reliable sources describing the rally as anti-trans. GraziePrego (talk) 04:56, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No one user on Wikipedia usually defines what a Reliable Source is, usually consensus must be achieved first before a source can be recognised as reliable. Please see WP:RSP for some frequently discussed reliable and non-reliable sources. Feel free to raise a discussion with other users to gain consensus on whether a source is reliable at WP:RSN. Qwerty123M (talk) 05:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From memory The Age, ABC News and The Guardian make up most of the sources in the article. Those are solid publications. TarnishedPath^talk 05:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, let’s not get carried away about what the judgement says. The judgement only says “these specific comments from Pesutto were defamatory about Deeming”. Nowhere in the judgement does it say “oh also by the way the court thinks that Deeming is cool and a fighter for women’s rights and she was totally stitched up”. It doesn’t at all wash away that Deeming attended an anti-trans rally that was also attended by neo-Nazis. GraziePrego (talk) 22:58, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even if it did say those things, WP:BLPPRIMARY is a thing. This was covered in a discussion above. TarnishedPath^talk 23:09, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Were the Nazis invited to the rally? There are plenty of reports that stated they were not and they hijacked the rally which severely tarnished. The media took it out of context and that was how the defamation case was formed. Context is required. Throttler (talk) 23:44, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Throttler whether they were invited or not is irrelevant, not that the article states that they were. When you hold a public demonstration, you have no control over who attends. It's not a private birthday party. It's not possible to gatecrash a public protest, that's not the way the English language works. The neo-Nazis attended the protest as did counter-protestors. If there had been no anti-trans protest, there would have been no neo-Nazis or counter-protestors. More importantly, we have a good number of reliable sources, that choose not to butcher the English language by using incorrect terns like "gatecrashed", and plainly stated the neo-Nazis attended the protest. TarnishedPath^talk 00:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is interesting because when you have a BLM rally it has the socialist alliance crowd but no one says anything nor writes. The reason because they are not the subject and therefore they are not written in. Talking about the terminology "gatecrashed", the terminology "xenophobia" was one used as genuine medial condition where a person without rationality is fearful of a person or people that are foreign and now the language has evolved as a racial slur. Terminologies can be subjected to different circumstances and I have seen used in Wikipedia. Throttler (talk) 04:50, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Throttler do you have a point that has anything to do with Wikipedia's WP:PAG? TarnishedPath^talk 05:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]