Talk:Moravian-Silesian Region

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: all moved. —Darkwind (talk) 21:26, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Moravia-Silesia → Moravian-Silesian Region
Vysočina (region) → Vysočina Region
South Bohemia → South Bohemian Region
Central Bohemia → Central Bohemian Region
South Moravia → South Moravian Region

– Recently all Czech region articles were moved to have the word "Region" removed (South Bohemian Region → South Bohemia) or parenthesised (Zlín Region → Zlín (region)). I moved the ones named after cities back immediately as they were uncontroversial (Zlín is a city, not a region), but I though I'd bring the others here for discussion.

Miďonek (talk · contribs) correctly observed that "South Moravia" and "South Moravian Region" mean slightly different things - the first refers to a historical territory (Jižní Morava) and the second to an administrative unit Jihomoravský kraj, which doesn't encompass the historical territory of South Moravia.

My personal stance is that "Moravian-Silesian Region" is a preferable title, because "Moravia-Silesia" is not a historical territory (it is made up of parts of North Moravia and Czech Silesia) and the name is used by sources[1] [2] and is used by the administration itself.[3] Also I think "Vysočina Region" is preferable to "Vysočina (region)" per WP:NATURAL - only use brackets if necessary. The other three I'm more or less neutral on, but if we keep them at their current titles we'll need to write the articles about the administrative areas AND the historic areas and point out the differences. - filelake shoe  09:06, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer the form Vysočina Region. Until July 2011 it was official only Vysočina but from 2011 the name of this region is Kraj Vysočina (Region Vysočina, or correct in English Vysočina Region). Moravia-Silesia is not historical territory but if you say it, you mean Morava-Slezsko. Moravian Silesian Region is correct name, I believe. --Miďonek (talk) 17:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about this whole "xx Region" format. It's "Connecticut" and not "State of Connecticut", just like it's "Bavaria" and not "State of Bavaria" and "Catalonia" and not "Catalonia Region" or whatever. Keep it simple. Gryffindor (talk) 10:03, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, Catalonia is just Catalonia. But the autonomous region in Spain doesn't comprise all of the historic Principality of Catalonia, which also includes Northern Catalonia, now part of France. We should definitely have an article titled "South Moravia", the question is whether we write it about the historic territory, or the present-day administrative unit, or both. - filelake shoe  10:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gryffindor, you don't understand differences between names of administrative units. If you say Bavaria, you mean State of Bavaria. There are two names for one thing. If you say South Moravia, you mean only south part of Moravia, not South Moravian Region. But it is not the same. I'm sorry of my bad English. --Miďonek (talk) 17:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support the rename per nom. All mentioned above are the names of the administrative-politicial entities, therefore the word "region" mirroring Czech "kraj", is necessary. - Darwinek (talk) 20:49, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. To Miďonek: I think I perfectly understand. But I am not convinced that adding "region" is necessary unless it needs to be disambiguated. Gryffindor (talk) 21:43, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

'Region' is not used as a disambiguator, but is part of the entities' names. --RJFF (talk) 23:09, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support: In Czech, the word "kraj" is always part of the respective entity's name. In English it should be translated to "Region". The word is part of the entities' names and should not be omitted. --RJFF (talk) 22:52, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like poor reasoning, and an appeal to WP:OFFICIALNAMES. Should we make moves to Commonwealth of Virginia, State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, or Free State of Bavaria? --BDD (talk) 18:51, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No it isn't, because if you say "Bavaria", it's clear you're talking about the "State of Bavaria". If you say "Moravia-Silesia" it is not at all clear you're talking about this administrative region. - filelake shoe  12:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm inclined to oppose. Unless there are separate articles on these regions that discuss general historical contexts, apart from their present administrative identities, I prefer the more concise names, i.e. without "Region." If there are such articles, it could be useful as disambiguation, however. --BDD (talk) 18:51, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Very strong support for Moravia-Silesia, as this brings in mind firstly the [Land of Moravia-Silesia], rather than the current region.

Support for South Bohemia/Moravia and Central Bohemia, as this might bring confusion between the region and between a mere geographical position (in which case central Bohemia would include also Prague, South Bohemia arguably East-South of Pilsen Region... you get my point.

Neutral on issue of Vysočina. Cimmerian praetor (talk) 21:26, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose It may be the norm in Czech to include Kraj in a region's title, but it isn't the norm in English to include Region, State, County, District or whatever, and we would only tend to do so as a disambiguator. Any differentiation between the area covered by the current region and a historical region or area can be covered in the text, and should not generally require a separate article, as outlined in the guidelines about how to write an article on geographic entities. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:47, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure, what solution do you actually propose? To have instead of Moravian-Silesian Region and Land of Moravia-Silasia - Moravia-Silesia (Region) and Moravia-Silesia (Land)? How else would you disambiguate?Cimmerian praetor (talk) 08:07, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also, that's not necessarily true - when talking about American counties, the word "county" is almost never omitted. Enough sources use "Moravian-Silesian Region" to be clear, I really think this article especially should be at that title. - filelake shoe  21:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Very strong support to move the lot – these entities exist primarily as admin areas. Revealingly, 12/14 Czech regions are named after general direction or a city. Littledogboy (talk) 16:07, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. --Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 13:06, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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