Talk:New York Radical Feminists

11/07-7/09 New York Radical Feminist article soon to be on archive.org

under a search of "radical feminism." It has been entirely deleted from Wikipedia and revised further in case of any copyright issues Wikipedia may have. Other NYRF documents, scanned in originals can be found there also under such a search. One needs to spend time especially now earning a living, not waste time on fruitless volunteer efforts such as this. Ldsnh2 (talk) 11:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ldsnh2 (talk • contribs) 11:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

One last thought before ending this endeavor

Consensus about this New York Radical Feminists article--that merely listed NYRF and NYRFer activities--was achieved and honored by the main author and researcher between the first expansion of the stub in November 2007, a review by a welcome to Wikipedia to ldsnh2, an edit for format by discospinster followed by and reviews and edits of many other Wikipedian editors and probably some NYRFers who have made Wikipedia edits until July 21, 2009.

The article that is up now will continue to have information and reference flaws as most '70's feminists who had a chance to expand the stub or make massive changes to the article since November 2007 have had a chance to do so, but have not. They also are unlikely to do so as they are getting on in years and/or their papers are archived out of their homes or like lsdnh2 would not demean themselves wasting their time doing the hard grunt work of such research on an article, achieving consensus over a year and a half, then having their work picked on by unqualified with their knowledge about the subject Wikipedians.

Any other editors who wish to make this article worthy of Wikipedia as it now is not would have to do extensive research to find secondary sources by which to add other information or take a trip to one of the libraries in which NYRF documents are now archived such as at Russell Sage College Upton Women's History Center, Duke University Sallie Bingham Rare Book and Manuscript Library or the University of Connecticut at Storrs Babbidge Library Thomas Dodd Research Center. Ldsnh2 no longer has these documents in her office. Ldsnh2 (talk) 13:43, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

If you want to publish original research, hey, more power to you. Just don't do it on Wikipedia, because it is not the place for it and there are specific rules in effect prohibiting such. (And contrary to some of your arguments above, adherence to this rule makes Wikipedia more of a reliable source, not less of one.) There are other websites that might be happy to publish your research, or you can start your own. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 19:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

You have not read anything I've written about a year and a half's worth of Wikipedian's having no such opinion about the article that you singularly have. They kept it there as is with their minor edits. Now I guess more such Wikipedian cultist "search and destroy" missions will take place to undermine more articles about feminism and women's rights thus undermining all attempts for Wikipedia to achieve gender equity. As long as a small number of such Wikipedian cultists can do such a thing, I have to agree after all with the librarian who said Wikipedia has little credibility with her colleagues. Ldsnh2 (talk) 23:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

1) I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the first sentence, but I actually have followed the article for over a year and a half. I am the same person as Peter Werner and I state that on my userpage. Under that name, I started this article, as I started several related articles (notably, Redstockings, The Feminists, and New York Radical Women) after reading Daring to be Bad and seeing that there was next to no material on these historically important groups on Wikipedia. When you first made your contributions, I was pleased that somebody was expanding the article. It was only recently that I looked closely at how the article had developed and found how tendentious and full of original research the article had become. At that point, I started flagging the problems with the article. After which, you pretty much went ballistic and started edit warring. I'm only sorry that I didn't challenge the article earlier, because it left you laboring under the illusion that you were contributing content that should be in Wikipedia. In any event, if you're this attached to the work you've done, its not like you can't post it elsewhere.

2) I'm not going to address your concerns about gender equality on Wikipedia, because you're playing that card in the most self-serving way imaginable. Most thinking people do not define gender equality as a woman getting her way every time simply because she's a woman.

3) "Wikipedia having little credibility" – Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, which means its not something that should be cited as a source to begin with. Its an aid to research – articles vary in quality to be sure and Wikipedia is a work in progress. A lot of Wikipedia articles stink – good articles will cite their sources and anybody who is using Wikipedia for research will follow up on those sources and refer to those. And, in any event, the canard that "Wikipedia isn't credible because they didn't accept my edits" has an air of sour grapes to it. Wikipedia is more credible not less when we enforce rules against original research, demand verifiable sources, and take action when articles that have multiple sides to them are edited in a partisan way.

Iamcuriousblue (talk) 01:02, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I address this now to all readers of this article and discussion and especially gender equity concerned Wikipedians not giving any credible authority to the pesty "taggers" but not workers we have all have to deal with--Shadowjams with a cockroach on his home page, this student of pornography Iamcuriousblue and Peter Werner, a biologist.

The article they destroyed was read and reviewed by many other Wikipedians from November 2007 until July 23. Again and again, the article was merely a listing of NYRF and NYRFer activities based upon NYRF documents available in at least three well-known library archives and under a "radical feminism" search at archive.org. The article had no analysis or commentary that one would come across in other writings about NYRF such as about why certain members came into, took power of, or left the organization or its controversies with and the disruptions of its conferences and other activities by leftist groups and FBI agents. It was a listing of "just simple facts" what public activities took place in NYRF and when.

That these "taggers but not workers" are employing double standards for this destroyed gender equity article actually can be proven. Some these "taggers but not workers" read an article about NYRF co-founder, Shulamith Firestone, and let stand unreferenced writings that put her in a bad light applying a double standard again vis-a-vis Wikipedia criteria for biographies of living persons. It clearly states that unreferenced major statements like that in this NYRF article about its philosophy being a fusion of two schools of thought (Redstockings and The Feminists) should be deleted not just tagged as needing a reference. When I deleted that sentence until someone could reinstate it with a proper reference, I was accused of a personal bias and the statement was reinserted without a reference. The same was true for a reference book "Daring to Be Bad" that at least for New York Radical Feminists has inaccurate dates and is based upon biased comments from a limited number of partisan founding members, but not Shulamith Firestone. The article had references to this book with no one of the "taggers" doing the work to put in page numbers or quotations proving the information to be valid. If the article is revised to re-reference "Daring to Be Bad" with no such page numbers or quotations, gender bias double standards will be again proven to be in operation.

Allowing such cut and paste in "taggers but not workers" with their own questionable agendas to arrogate authority on articles about controversial topics such as feminism over all other Wikipedians will turn away those knowledgeable about and willing to do the difficult research and writing work for any subject matter. Without these real workers to do the research and writing, Wikipedia will be shunned as a New York City librarian said she and her colleagues do. Wikipedia will be reduced to a playground for such as those who caused the November 2007-July 23 2009 article to be moved to archive.org. I strongly urge others writing about feminists, feminist history or feminist issues to do the same until Wikipedia gets its act together--move their Wikipedia efforts to archive.orgLdsnh2 (talk) 09:09, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

If you are not going to provide an alternative reliable source, you will be ignored. We are going to go by our standard: verifiability, not truth. It doesn't matter what you claim is the truth. What matters is what we can all verify. You can help us by finding reliable sources for your view and we can discuss whether we have been giving undue weight to those views. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Specific pages, text quotations citations needed for this article

especially from "Daring to Be Bad" Just citing that or any other book for a reference without adding such reliable details of a page number and quote from its text violates Wikipedia quality criteria.Ldsnh2 (talk) 16:05, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, page numbers a bottom line requirement for citations, even though it is worthwhile to have page numbers in addition to the larger book citation. I will note that *removal* of the citation in question, rather than tagging the existing citation, is simply a disruptive edit. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 02:11, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. However, I see that a copy of Daring to be bad is available at my local school library. I will check on Tuesday or so if I recall but our library is notoriously bad about reshelving stuff during the summer. Would that be satisfactory? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:14, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I own a copy of that book. I will go through it, fact check, and add notes today, and I'll drop any parts that aren't supported. However, considering the history of edit warring that I've been complaining about, I fear that anything I add is going to be reverted immediately, and that doesn't exactly encourage me to do work toward improving this article. I would definitely encourage you to have a look at the book – the part on NYRF is a pretty quick read, and would like other's opinions on whether it supports the statements it is cited for and whether or not it is really the fringe source that Ldsnh2 makes it out to be.

I suspect that the animus that Ldsnh2 has toward the book has to do with the book's central thesis, namely that the dominant tendency in radical feminism from 1975 to the present represents a conservative shift from radical feminism circa 1968-1974. (See Radical_feminism#Criticisms, third paragraph for an outline of this.) This thesis is controversial and very much disagreed with by contemporary radical feminists and by some veteran members of early radical feminism. However, this analysis is also quite apart from its outlining of the history of various early radical feminist groups, of which the book is considered a notable source. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 16:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Talk page comments

I've removed two sections of your comments at Talk:New York Radical Feminists as further attacks in violation of our talk page guidelines. Please also see our civility policy. Now, what exactly did you mean in this section about potential future copyright concerns? Be careful because we have a very strong policy against legal threats. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I've also restored your comments at the talk page. It makes the entire discussion a mess if you withdraw every comment you make. Your comments are there for now. If you actually want to discuss things, we can actually do that. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Report me to whoever, block me, ban me,, edit out things I write, edit back in things I delete, write assumptions about how you may think I may think or feel, question my integrity, knowledge, research work, experience, whatever you want to do, whoever you are, just do it. I do not care. Good luck to you.Ldsnh2 (talk) 02:18, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

no cite

there is a major error that is being used. the purpose of the {{cite}} is to generate the elucidation of certrain sources, in re: thats all you need to addition User:Smith Jones 00:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Conflict over sources

The edit war over this article largely played out at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive554#User:Ldsnh2_and_New_York_Radical_Feminists_.E2.80.93_ongoing_pattern_of_disruptive_editing. I am transcribing part of it here, since it speaks directly to what material was being argued over and why:

You don't get the idea that people, male or female, with knowledge, experience, and research skills and resources about a subject go through considerable public domain resources to share information with the Internet public--in my case every New York Radical Feminist newsletter and conference document as well as ancillary groups documents, as well as news articles and three books written by NYRFers and long distance phone calls to two NYRFers to verify dats--on Wikipedia. They then have their work OK'd from the start by Wikipedians and make edits to follow Wikipedian criteria. They then have their work on Wikipedia reviewed and OK'd for a year and half.

After this, they then do not care an iota about Wikipedia and have no interest in it or its further success when their work researching scores of resources is picked on and undone and replaced by a few quotes chiefly from one book. They move on and find other places to post their articles. They cannot delete their Wikipedia accounts but could if they were able to. To them, Wikipedia is at best a disappointment if not something to downgrade in discussions with their friends and colleagues. Period, end of story. My November 2007-July 21, 2009 article based only on listings of activities, dates and places, not personal recollections of any biased NYRF participant including myself, has been greatly revised also with more references and will be posted on archive.org under "radical feminism" by July 31.Ldsnh2 (talk) 20:48, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

...and sadly, your actions have likely done more harm than good for your cause. Wikipedia is not the place to carry signs and claim sexism, because that's a load of crap around here. Best of luck to you. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

And I think, unfortunately, what you don't get is the concept of No Original Research and the fact that much of what you continue to insist on constitutes original research. For godsakes, your version of the article claimed personal emails as a source. If you have even the most cursory idea about Wikipedia's prohibition on original research, you'd know that personal emails as a reference, and any statement supported solely by this, is not remotely acceptable. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 21:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

One other thing, you keep insisting that your earlier version of the article was "OK'd by Wikipedians". Quite simply, it wasn't, because there is no formal "OKing" of an article, other than perhaps the kind of evaluation of an article as a Good Article or Feature Article (and I know the NYRF article has not been a candidate for either of these). Just because an article has been around for a certain amount of time without anybody raising objections does not mean its "OK'd" in any sense. Many problematic edits stay around for years before anybody a) notices them, and b) takes action. This is especially true of articles on fairly obscure topics, like this one. The kind of thorough going-over and fact-checking this article is undergoing right now is probably the first detailed review this article has ever had. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 22:20, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I reread the main source of the New York Radical Feminists article "Daring to Be Bad" as part of research for my archive.org article and focused on the pages that deal with the split of the Stanton-Anthony Brigade from NYRF that are referred to in this article. There are recollections from the members of other brigades who took issue with leaders, Firestone and Koedt--Brownmiller--and other members of Stanton-Anthony--Crothers and Bikman (with whom I was personally acquainted and very much liked) who also provided their recollections of how Firestone and Koedt felt. However, no where on those pages are there any quotatons or other information provided directly by Firestone and Koedt. In those days women who left feminist groups often wrote a long piece about why If Echols had found and quoted such a document from either Firestone or Koedt in her pages about this change in NYRF, her book and its reference here would have credibility and validity.

Without such direct statements or writings from Firestone or Koedt whom I never did meet but respect and want respected, any writings about them in this or any other book and why they did this or that are just hearsay, gossip etc. and not valid information to be included anywhere including in Wikipedia. The constant use of this one book as a main resource with its based upon such sloppy research this being just one example but a glaring one in and of itself invalidates the current New York Radical Feminists article. The article should be deleted until a wider range of resources are used for a quality Wikipedia article.Ldsnh2 (talk) 22:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any verifiable, published sources at all about the supposed inaccuracies of Echols book? Or another verifiable published source that provides an account of the history of NYRF that substantially differs from that of Echols? Or is this entirely based on your first-hand knowledge, which we're supposed to take as gospel, without any way of verifying this. Once again, what part of No Original Research don't you understand? Iamcuriousblue (talk) 23:49, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Fact checking and revision

I am undertaking a major fact-check on this article, making sure facts stated in the article are supported by the cited references, and changing or deleting statements accordingly when they don't, and also finding references for uncited statements where possible.

I have mostly completed this, though the remaining section that I have yet to fact check are the middle sentences in the last paragraph:

NYRF organized small consciousness raising groups throughout NYC many of which came together for a monthly business and consciousness raising meeting. NYRF continued to grow through the mid-1970's also establishing a speakers' bureau and publishing a newsletter. " It held major conferences exploring the feminist implications of marriage, motherhood, rape, work, and other issues that they saw as manifesting women's oppression.

This isn't in any of the books that I know of that discuss NYRF, but I will check this against the NYRF literature in the archive at Ourmedia.org/Archive.org. The above statements may or may not be salvageable after fact-checking. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 21:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I've finished the major fact-check and rewrite I undertook a few days ago. While the article is now brief, every statement in this version of the article is cited and should accurately reflect its source. (The version to which I'm referring is archived here.) There is enough material in citable sources like the Echols and Brownmiller books referenced in the article, the NYRF literature archive at Ourmedia/Archive.org, and mentions in back issues of alternative media (like off our backs) and mainstream newspapers (such as New York Times) to significantly expand this article. However, given the history of edit warring around this article, I first want to make sure that this is a stable version. So I'll give it a little time before undertaking further edits. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 00:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

My apologies to my feminist friends

I was silly when I was quarantined in my apartment with the H1N1 virus--if you get a severe sore throat very suddenly go to your PCP for an injection to alleviate flu symptoms ASAP--to engage in fruitless dealings with a group of editors at Wikipedia about this New York Radical Feminists article. I later tried to undo some of my writings I never would have engaged in otherwise--I unfortunately forgot our lessons from previous times to back off and go in a different direction at once from such troubles --but the editors put them back in.

However, this is a good lesson to all of us--especially those of us getting on in years who have health issues or conditions like prior strokes as I have had that can reoccur and render them disabled or worse at any time. We need to find other resources for posting information about any and all topics for a more lasting record on the Internet. We are warned that Wikipedian efforts can be undone and redone at will by any and all others using ever-changing standards and from this we all can see how much that is so. As to "no article ownership" cited below, this article is owned by a group of young male Wikipedia cultists who will undo--applying double standards to--any revisions others will make to this article that essentially is designed to denigrate a feminist organization. It does that by focusing on a limited six-month period in NYRF's seven years of activism. Its emphasis on these first six months serves to denigrate NYRF's founding members as lacking original ideas and respect in their organization.Ldsnh2 (talk) 12:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC) + —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.0.193.71 (talk • contribs) 10:29, 14 August 2009

Of course this article can be changed and re-edited at will. Please note Wikipedia's policy on No Article Ownership. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 15:02, 28 July 2009 (UTC)