Talk:Oğuz (city)

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Sourced information removal

Hello @NMW03:, this is your 2nd removal of sourced information about the former Armenian population and its expulsion from this village [1],[2]. You also removed in those diffs info about the renaming of the village. How are you claiming "source doesn't mention it", when the quote about population expulsion and name is literally on the first page: "In 1988/98, most Udis living in Vartashen had been expelled, due to the intervention of the local authorities of the Azerbaijan National Front. The expulsion was part of the overall Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict that had its outbreak in 1988/9 (beginning secession of the Mountain Karabakh (Artsakh)".

Followed up with "...Today, the number of Vartashen speakers in the renamed city of Vartashen (> Oguz) is rather low". By the most basic deduction, the renaming of the village then was done after the expulsion of its former Armenian and Udi speaking populations |3.

From herein, do not blatantly remove sourced information. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 04:51, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks ZaniGiovanni. I didn't see this sentence. But it talks about udis, not armenians. So I am removing "armenian". NMW03 (talk) 04:58, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

First of all, I'm going to ask you to capitalize Armenian from herein. Secondly, the Arm/Az populations in both Armenia and Azerbaijan were expelled/left to their respective countries after the war. The description was perfectly fine. And logically, the Armenian population was expelled too along the Udi speaking population of the village, who also are seen as Armenians. Read WP:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 05:26, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Armenian population was expelled, yes. But I don't see any connection between that and this article. Mentioned source also mentioned expulsion of Azerbaijanis in Armenia but we are not talking about that because it is not related. NMW03 (talk) 05:37, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

You don't see a connection between Armenian populated area with Armenian name/population/culture/churches/manuscript dating to 1466, other natives seen as Armenians, and the post war expulsions that naturally affected this village too? I think we're nearing WP:JDLI territories here. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 05:45, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Schulze writes:

In 1988/98, most Udis living in Vartashen had been expelled, due to the intervention of the local authorities of the Azerbaijan National Front. The expulsion was part of the overall Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict that had its outbreak in 1988/9 (beginning secession of the Mountain Karabakh (Artsakh) region from Azerbaijan): The Udis from Vartashen, bearing Armenian names and belonging to both the Armenian and the Gregorian Church, had been viewed as Armenians and hence suffered the same fate as other Armenians in Azerbaijan (or Azerbaijanis in Armenia).

He makes no connection between expulsion of Armenian and Udi population and renaming. Plus, he says that Udis of this town were expelled because they were taken for Armenians due to similar sounding surnames. Grandmaster 11:28, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

@Grandmaster you edits still fascinate me, not going to lie. Your ability to insert "both sides" or to overtly balance view points is phenomenal, good job. Still tho, I'm afraid I've reworked your edit, focusing more on the expulsion of this village's population, like with the absolute majority of post war expelled areas both in Armenia and Azerbaijan. Good example Tretuk, among many. Hope you understand, Cheers. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 13:42, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

A good rule to mind is WP:NPA: Comment on content, not on the contributor. I provided an accurate summary of the source, which you removed. Grandmaster 14:19, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

I didn't remove your entire summary, and already re-added how it's described in the source. Take care, ZaniGiovanni (talk) 15:13, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Gulistan

Why was Persian transliteration removed? It is a Persian name that has nothing to do with Armenian language. Gul means flower, stan means place in farsi. It has no meaning in Armenian, because it is not an Armenian word. Grandmaster 11:41, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Grandmaster, what do Nakhchivan, Ganja, and Baku mean in "Azerbaijani"? They're also Farsi; they have no meaning in Azeri, because they are not Azeri words. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 17:53, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

That is true, but Persian etymology is explained in the articles. Grandmaster 07:44, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

The problem is that no source specifically says that "Giwlstan comes from Persian", and it would technically be WP:SYNTHESIS. But fine, I don't have a problem with mentioning its Persian origin. Have a great day. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 16:21, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

The argumentation from @BaxçeyêReş makes sense. I'll remove the Persian mention per WP:SYNTHESIS if there are no better objections. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 17:10, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Certain thing are so obvious, that do not require a source. Any Armenian speaker will attest that Gulistan has no meaning in Armenian. Grandmaster 08:42, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Source doesn't say anything about transliteration or that it comes from Persian. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:28, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

@BaxçeyêReş: can you tell me what is "Giwlstan"? --NMW03 (talk) 16:18, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't speak Armenian, but all you and Grandmaster need to know is that a medieval Armenian text containing the (romanized) word Giwlstan (probably from the persian word Golestan, but not in the source) was found there. Calling it Persian would be WP:SYNTHESIS, and I'm wondering why both of you don't know that. Stop disrupting this page, because this is settled once and for all. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 17:53, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

The name comes from the Armenian manuscript dating to 1466, and on it, it's written Գիւլստան in Armenian language. [3]. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 18:43, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

And what does it mean in Armenian? Grandmaster 07:43, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

you're right actually, should've been clarified. cheers, ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:35, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

The thing is that Gulistan or Golestan is a pure Persian word. It has no meaning in Armenian, so I do not understand why there should be a transliteration in Armenian. It is like adding an Armenian spelling to a Russian name like Ivanovka, for a location that is not in Armenia. Grandmaster 08:42, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

There shouldn't be transliteration at all? We are presenting what's written in the source and again, it clearly says manuscript has the word Գիւլստան in Armenian language. Im going to remove transliteration per WP:SYNTHESIS, I saw no better objections. If you have anything else to say other than repeating yourself, feel free to present it here. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:16, 10 June 2021 (UTC)