Talk:Origin of the Armenians

	Origin of the Armenians is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Ethnic groups

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles

???

This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:

Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks:

Meta-tasks:
- Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project.
- Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
Start an article:
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests

Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

Linguistics Low‑importance

	Linguistics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Linguistics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of linguistics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LinguisticsWikipedia:WikiProject LinguisticsTemplate:WikiProject LinguisticsLinguistics articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Human Genetic History (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human Genetic History, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Human Genetic HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Human Genetic HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Human Genetic HistoryHuman Genetic History articles

Archives

Archive 1

Possible mention by Luwians

@Preservedmoose: This is the first I’ve ever heard of this. The sentence you wrote provides very little context and explanation about its validity, accuracy, and acceptance in academic circles. It would be nice to provide the direct quote (like I’ve done in other attestations) or at least provide more information. From the little I managed to look up the source, it seems this “Hai” you mention is associated to Paeonians, and the assumption is that Paio- or Paeo-, through the P -> H sound change in Proto-Armenian, yielded the stem “Hayo-.” That is speculation at best, and is presented as such by academics – it’s not a real attestation of Armenians or Armenia. In contrast, Diakonoff thought “Hay” may have derived from unattested “Hatiyos” (from “Hatti” or “Hatte” — Hittites) for similar reasons, and which is completely unrelated to Paeonia. I think this fits better under “Historiography” (the methods of developing history/study of writing history) than in “Earliest Attestations,” don’t you think? Remember that this section is not “speculations about attestation” but actual attestations. Or better yet, I think this fits better on another article — Name of Armenia. — [ kentronhayastan ] 16:02, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Genetic Origins section contains one or more questionable references and a number of questionable statements

section: Genetic Origins

First of all, I must point out that nowhere in the Genetic Origins section is there reference to the topic being of scholarly debate. Based on my preliminary research there is currently an abundance of scholarly debate as to the genetic origins of the Armenian people.

Secondly, a number of statements have possibly misleading narratives or suspect references, such as:

"Recent studies have shown that Armenians are indigenous to the Armenian Highlands and form a distinct genetic isolate in the region"
"Armenians are also one of the genetic isolates of the Near East who share affinity with the Neolithic farmers who expanded into Europe beginning around 8,000 years ago"
"As was concluded in earlier studies, the 2020 study reaffirms the pattern of genetic affinity between modern Armenians and the ancient inhabitants of the Armenian Highlands since the Chalcolithic. It reveals a "strikingly high" level of regional genetic continuity for over 6,000 years"

Of particular concern is #3. The reference for this statement is a research study published on bioRxiv which can be found at https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.24.168781v1. There are several reasons that this research study should be met with skepticism:

it's a preprint and has not yet been certified by peer review
the authors declare that they have competing interests
funding for this research comes from:
- the Science Committee of the Ministry of Education and Science of Armenia
- the Calouste Gulbenkian Foundation
- the Foundation for Armenian Science and Technology

While it may eventually turn out that statements 1, 2 and 3 are accurate, they are far from proven at this time. The bioRxiv comment section for the study is clear proof for this: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.24.168781v1#disqus_thread.

I'm unsure of how to address this problem because it appears that this section needs substantial attention and my knowledge of the subject is preliminary. At minimum, it seems necessary to add a sentence at the beginning of the section stating something akin to:

"The genetic origins of the Armenian people are of intense scholarly debate and the contents of this section may change substantially over time. All statements and references in this section should be critically evaluated before being accepted as accurate."

Thoughts on how to proceed?

The three points you mention are paraphrased from the articles mentioned. Also, notice the use of the phrases “research has concluded” or “show” or “reaffirms,” and never “proven.” We can consider rewording some passages (for example, we can add, “in a preprint of a research yet to be certified by peer review”). I don’t have time at this very moment, but we can discuss it further. Also, please sign your comment (add ~~~~ and Wikipedia will automatically add your name). — [ kentronhayastan ] 17:40, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I disagree that the topic is of intense scholarly debate. The notion that Armenians form a genetic isolate in the Near East and are related to neolithic farmers has been confirmed or concluded on multiple occasions, by non-Armenian studies (most noteworthy one being Hellenthal et al, Science (2014)). — [ kentronhayastan ] 17:46, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Xerxes I and the inscription at Van

@Kentronhayastan: Hi. The source in this section states:[1] "The name Urashtu (a variant for Urartu) is encountered for the last time in the inscriptions of Xerxes (486–465). In the trilingual texts of Darius (522–486) the Old Persian word which corresponds to the Akkadian Urashtu is Armina" The quote doesn't indicate that the text of the Van inscription has anything to do with the topic. The full translation of the Van inscription can be read at the Xerxes I inscription at Van article, as well as other venues online. It doesn't mention the words "Armenia", "Urartu", "Urasthu" or anything along these lines as far as I can see. Perhaps a different inscription by Xerxes is meant? Xerxes authorized many other inscriptions as well. Linking the Van inscription to nomenclatures related to Armenia seems WP:OR at the moment. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:13, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]