Talk:Otto Klemperer

Controversial expression

The sentence "Klemperer was born in Breslau (occupied by Poland since 1945)", i.e. expression in parenthesis is somewhat controversial.

Silesia, of course, was seized by Frederick the Great in 1742, and was thereafter part of Prussia until partitioned after 1918 - 166 years. It has as a whole been in Poland since 1945 - 63 years - over a third of that time. It seems to have been the case that the University of Breslau was making entry difficult for Polish Jews before 1914, on anti-Semitic grounds. It's not entirely clear whether the city was ever anything but"occupied" by some ethnic group or other. I would propose sidestepping the issue raised by "occupied by Poland since 1945" by deleting it and trying to preserve some sort of historical accuracy by rewording it "Klemperer was born in Breslau (Wroclaw)...." since the Polish name has historic precedence and has certainly survived, and since the city in which Klemperer was born was at the time known internationally as Breslau. Delahays (talk) 16:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Klemperer's tempi

50% of this article is given up to a discussion of tempo trends in Klemperer's recordings. While perhaps of interest to a particular breed of record collector, this is surely not material for a work of reference, and the emphasis placed on this data is hardly to be found in any comparable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tngm (talk • contribs) 09:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Although, it has to be said that his choice of tempos (or tempi!) is one of the things about his conducting that, rightly or wrongly, is most talked about, and indeed something that often (but not always) sets his interpretations apart from others', even to the non-musically educated. Ondewelle (talk) 12:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The para about tempi is a useful attempt to provide some objectivity about a notoriously controversial topic. What it doesn't do is tell us why Klemperer was so effective a conductor in the concert hall. In the 1920s Theodore Weissengrund Adorno wrote after a Klemperer performance of Fidelio at the Kroll in Berlin "Niemals brennenden wir genauer" - untranslatable but "Never did we burn so exactly" might fit. At that time Klemperer on home ground was seem as a champion of 'objectivity' and an approach which started by clarifying text and texture. Ironically, his performance of the Bach B minor Mass in the 1960s was attacked by the supporters of the new school of "authenticity" for not going as far as they had already done, with a small choir, and for his attempt, in the concert performance which followed the recording, to build the entire performance on a single constant bass pulse. (Croy 379 Croy379 (talk) 16:46, 8 December 2010 (UTC))

His private life

Well, you know... Wife? Children? Anything? 81.182.162.153 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

And for crying out loud, what is is height and weight doing on here? He was a conductor and composer, not a prize fighter! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.67.61.64 (talk) 01:17, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

He was the tallest conductor of his time.

--Georgius (talk) 11:38, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

So what? Someone else must have been the fattest conductor of their time, or the thinnest, or the whateverest. Anyway, since when do we have infoboxes for classical musicians? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:04, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Body facts removed as no key information. Since when? I don't know and have no time to investigate, not really interested. I looked at the history of this article and saw that it had an infobox in 2008, and the present one was added in 2011. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

If he was that tall, am surprised he'd fit in the box. But who was the "world's fattest conductor"? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:42, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

ask the project, not here ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:45, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Maybe here. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:06, 6 October 2014 (UTC) p.s. Otto not a patch on Shaquille O'Neal anyway

Image

What a shitty image! tildetildetildetilde

Christ, guess I have to add content because some autistic wikitard is incapable of distinguishing between vandalism and valid criticism. The image used in the article should really be replaced because it is overexposed which makes it just plain terrible. I don't get how whoever added it thought it was good enough to be used. I would suggest that another image be used, one that isn't overexposed so that the reader can actually make out the subject's face. tildetildetildetilde —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.69.63 (talk) 18:27, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

tempi

"The passing years show a clear trend with respect to tempo: as Klemperer aged, he took slower tempi."

This is true of virtually all conductors, and usually results in sluggish -- rather than more-insightful -- performances. (Note, for example, Colin Davis's terminally torpid "Romeo and Juliette" and Sibelius symphonies on LSO.) Klemperer is unfairly singled out for this, though, because of his snooze-inducing Beethoven symphony cycle. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 14:57, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Royal Academy of Music

We have removed part of a sentance stating that Klemperer's archive was dontated to the Royal Academy of Music because this was not the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.61.65.100 (talk) 08:48, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Did he never study an instrument?

The article says nothing about this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 19:55, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Incongruous title

The content of The early 1950s and health problems sub-chapter is all but healthward related. Please, choose a more suitable title. Carlotm (talk) 07:20, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

The early 1950s and health problems

This section talks about social and political problems he had in the 1950s, but does not discuss his health. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.255.24.21 (talk) 23:00, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

American?

"Otto Nossan Klemperer (14 May 1885 – 6 July 1973) was a German-born American conductor and composer". Out of the Italian, French, Spanish, German and English wikepdias the English one is the only one stating that Klemperer was American. The article states that he recovered his German passport after emigrating back to Europe. Why would he be considered American?

The English WP does not state Klemperer was American. It states his citizenship was American; due to the fact that he emigrated here after the war in 1945 and lived and worked here until he took Israeli citizenship in 1970. Thanks. Please remember to sign your posts with 4 {~}. Maineartists (talk) 14:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Small issues with article

First of all, deepest thanks to Tim riley and other editors for working so hard to improve this article. There are a handful of issues in it that could be tweaked. I'd do so myself, but don't want to step on anybody's toes. So I'll just mention them here:

• The passage about OK's 1951 Concertgebouw recordings seems to imply that they were made for Vox, which they weren't. It would be helpful if this could be clarified.

• Done. Tim riley talk 11:37, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

• Mention ought to be made that the July 1951 Mahler 2 in Amsterdam was conducted in memory of Willem Mengelberg. I believe it was supposed to have been his first concert after the end of his postwar ban, but he had died nearly four months before.

• Coincidentally I mentioned this on the article's current FAC page, citing it as an instance where for Klemperer musical considerations took priority over any political views he may have held. But I think this level of detail is unsuitable in an encylopaedia article: certainly it is not mentioned in the Grove articles on either Klemperer or Mengelberg. Tim riley talk 11:37, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

• In 1936, OK met Dmitri Shostakovich, who played to him his then new Symphony No. 4. OK committed himself to conducting its Western premiere, but ultimately was prevented from doing when Shostakovich withdrew the work until 1961.

• I'm reluctant to single out one aborted premiere among several. Klemperer was intended to conduct, e.g., the premiere of Stravinsky's The Rake's Progress but in the end did not do so. He never conducted the Shostakovich 4th symphony (and conducted little of the composer's work) and I am inclined not to refer to it in the article. Tim riley talk 11:37, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

• OK's wife Johanna ought to be fleshed out a little more in this article. She played a not inconsequential role in both his personal and professional life. Her death in 1956 ought to at least be mentioned and cited. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 22:46, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Good idea. I've added three sentences about Johanna and her relationship with Klemperer. Tim riley talk 11:37, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for these points. I'll get on to them in the next day or two. Tim riley talk 09:33, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

And now done. Tim riley talk 11:37, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for adding more about his wife. Please don't use (at least in articles) direct links to Wikpedias in other languages. They are a problem for people using screenreaders, as Graham87 explained to me. In this case: no need to change as she is on my to-do-list for at least a stub (which will provide the interlanguage connection). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:39, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Done, and linked. That is so far a poor article, just rather uncritically translating from de, which is based on her daughter's biography (to 1919), and I have no time for more right now, but a start. She was the first Marietta in Die tote Stadt, imagine! Go ahead, beat me to adding that and more ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Persecution by the Nazi

I think more of an explanation should be given as to why Klemperer was forced to leave Germany in the 1930s. In The Coming of the Third Reich "Chapter 6: Hitler’s Cultural Revolution: Discordant Notes" Richard J. Evans writes:

Among Germany’s leading conductors, Otto Klemperer was the one who most nearly fitted the Nazi caricature of a Jewish musician. A cousin of the literature professor and diarist Victor Klemperer, he was not only Jewish but had also, as director of the avant-garde Kroll Opera House from 1927 to 1930, pioneered radical productions, and made a name for himself as a champion of modernist composers such as Stravinsky. On 12 February Klemperer conducted a controversial production of Wagner’s opera Tannhäuser in Berlin, which was condemned by the Nazi music press as a “bastardization of Wagner” and an affront to the composer’s memory. By the beginning of March the furor hade forced the withdrawal of the production; soon, Klemperer’s concerts were being cancelled on the usual specious grounds that public safety could not be guaranteed if he appeared on the rostrum. Klemperer attempted to save himself by insisting that “he was in complete agreement with the course of events in Germany”, but he soon realized the inevitable. On 4 April he, too, left the country.

I believe Evans' main source for this section is Heyworth (1996, Vol 1) but the chapter adds context on the systematic targeting of Jewish musicians. It would also be good to somewhere in the article mention his cousin Victor Klemperer. P. S. Burton (talk) 14:48, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

As well as Victor, the Klemperer family included a distinguished medical man, who, if memory serves, either arranged or performed the operation on OK's brain tumour. But although they are mentioned in Heyworth's two-volume biography, I don't think they call for inclusion in a 6,000-word encyclopaedia article. As to why OK left Germany in 1933, I think the essentials are clear enough in the article. We have covered the avant-garde production styles, and the quotation from Tietjen seems to me to cover the political and racial aspects. Tim riley talk 18:28, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Carry over from FAC

Comments below copied from FAC page

Having read more about his wife, I have a few more questions:

• "She retired from singing in the mid-1930s." I can't access Heyworth vol 2, but Großes Sängerlexikon notes a vocal crisis (after 1928), and several agree that her singing career was over when they left Germany in 1933 the latest. - If your sources have records of her appearing after 1928, I'd be grateful if you could add them to her article.
• I believe that mentioning the world premieres of Die tote Stadt and Der Zwerg would actually be more related to his career than whichever years his wife stopped singing on stage, and Marietta, a role she created, would tell those who know the opera in one word what she was able to do.
• If you know which other operas Klemperer conducted in Cologne, it might give a clue for the role pictured, possibly in 1922. It doesn't look (to me) like any of the ones already mentioned, unless perhaps Despina. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Berlin (next header) is also a German opera house, - I suggest to name the houses in the header, instead of "German opera houses". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I suggested we continue this here, and I shall research further and reply. Tim riley talk 19:28, 15 March 2023 (UTC)