Talk:Paolo Casali

Conflict of interest

More than one major contributor to this article appears to have a close personal or professional connection to the topic, and thus to have a conflict of interest. Conflict-of-interest editors are strongly discouraged from editing the article directly, but are always welcome to propose changes on the talk page (i.e., here). You can attract the attention of other editors by putting {{request edit}} (exactly so, with the curly parentheses) at the beginning of your request, or by clicking the link on the lowest yellow notice above. Requests that are not supported by independent reliable sources are unlikely to be accepted.

Please also note that our Terms of Use state that "you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation." An editor who contributes as part of his or her paid employment is required to disclose that fact. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:14, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Education / CV

In regard to this edit In my view an apparently factual statement of the educational institutions attended, degrees earned, and positions held, without adjectives of evaluation ("outstanding" or the like) is not puffery, and is the kind of content normally accepted as unsourced but sourcable. The policy is verifibility, not verification. It is not required that uncontroversial, plausible, effectively routine info be sourced, any more than we routinely source the parents names in a biography article. If such info is challanged and a source is required, this is exactly the sort of thing that a staff list section of a university web site would be a reliable source for. True, such a source is not fully independent. But a major university or other institution has little or no reason to puff up the CVs of its faculty, and considerable to lose it it is know to have done so. For not controversial details, at least, they can be treated as an independent source. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 22:41, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

But there was NO source provided? It still requires referencing. Theroadislong (talk) 10:53, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I have found a source for his med degree but the date is different and it was for Magna cum laude and not summa cum laude, I am frankly astonished that you consider it OK for a paid editor to add education details with no sources at all! Theroadislong (talk) 13:37, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. Once the material has been challenged and removed as unreferenced, the WP:BURDEN to provide adequate WP:independent reliable sources is squarely on any editor who wants to re-add it. As far as I am aware, Italian universities do not award magna cum laude degrees – under the current system, a simple "lode" may be awarded to students who obtain the maximum mark, 110; that mark used to be 60, so the highest possible result was "sessanta e lode". Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 14:33, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Request edit on 22 August 2017

The information under "Professional positions, is incorrect, and is not the same Paolo Casali. References 1, 7, 17, 18 are not the same man as the Italian-American Immunologist that is the Chairman on the Microbiology Department at the University of Texas Health Science Center San Antonio. These references and the information related to them should be removed immediately. Also, additional information regarding Paolo Casali can be located at: (https://www.harrisandassociates.com/web/z/1/1908/Dr._Paolo_Casali/) (http://gsbs.uthscsa.edu/faculty/paolo-casali-m.d) (https://news.uthscsa.edu/immunologist-casali-to-occupy-zachry-distinguished-chair/) (https://wp.uthscsa.edu/mimg/team-member/paolo-casali-m-d-2/) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Paolo+Casali) (https://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/blog/2014/05/health-science-center-s-casali-awarded-lupus.html) (https://bionews-tx.com/news/2013/09/25/immunologist-paolo-casali-to-occupy-university-of-texas-health-science-center-at-san-antonio-zachry-distinguished-chair/)

Also, the first two publication should be updated. They have been published; please see link below: (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=binding+to+switch+region+DSB+ends+to+modulate+immunoglobulin+class+switch+DNA) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Rab7+inhibitor+impairs+B+cell+class-class+switching+and+plasma+cell+survival+t)

Again, Paolo G. Casali is not the same man as Paolo Casali, to whom this page is referring. The information provided above, and at the very least the photos, should provide evidence enough to remove the incorrect information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.111.82.89 (talk • contribs) 14:23, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Requesting Changes

My name is Paul and I am a colleague of Mr. Casali. I have come here to hopefully help out with the information on this Wikipedia page. First, let me say I see (and have been told) there have been many issues with the article, especially from those who may have conflicting reasons for being here. I have read through those guidelines so I am letting you know that I will not edit the article directly and will instead use this page to talk about content changes. With that in mind, I will be uploading an image in the next day and was wondering if this is something that I can place directly on the article or should I request someone else here do it? Also, I read through the different notices at the top of the page and will be finding better references to propose for the article. --Meriville (talk) 03:27, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your note at my talk page, and for your note here. I've left a note at your talk page, so we can go over a few things there before we start working here. I look forward to working with you to improve this page. Jytdog (talk) 06:17, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Request to Add Image

Can we please add the image at this link (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Paolo_Casali_Photo.jpg) to the main article on Mr. Casali? --Meriville (talk) 03:20, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done. Not a great picture. But its a picture. Jytdog (talk) 03:30, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you!! --Meriville (talk) 03:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Undisclosed Paid Editing and Conflict of Interest

The day I left the first message here, a notice was placed on the article saying that it was editing for payment that was not disclosed. This may have been previously, but I have disclosed my affiliation so I am going to believe it is for the previous editing prior to March. There was also a notice saying that someone with a conflict of interest may have edited the article which is true. My question is what is needed at this point to remove both notices? Jytdog did extensive editing and cleanup of the article back in March. Did those edits suffice the cleanup that is linked from the notices at the top? If not, what other cleanup is required to remove those notices? --Meriville (talk) 03:27, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't think so, but let's ask. The person who did it, is a good egg. User:SamHolt6 would you please explain why you placed the UDP tag? Jytdog (talk) 03:29, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I have no experience here with anyone but you so I will trust they are good. Also, I did not leave the "request edit" notice as you instructed because I see that you have already responded. Am I right to assume that it is not needed or should I still add it? --Meriville (talk) 03:34, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I do not specifically remember why I added the UDP tag, but I could guess that I saw changes being made to the article via my watchlist, decided to look at the article talk page, saw the multiple potential COI editors listed above, and decided to place the UDP tag, so this might have been a bit of a drive by on my part.--SamHolt6 (talk) 16:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi, SamHolt6. Thank you for the response. As you can see from the disclosures I am trying to help Mr. Casali with the multiple notices on the page. I am working on getting references together so that I can propose a few changes to hopefully get rid of the first two notices (the tone and the referencing). The others would be the notice that you placed and the other that says someone with a close connection has edited the page. Based on the editing of Jytdog in March, I believe that the notice you placed and the notice for someone being closely connected could be removed. Of course, I have a conflict of interest here so that's just my opinion. If you could let me know if you feel those two can be removed. If not, please let me know what would be needed in order to get them removed. --Meriville (talk) 04:25, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Your "belief" is not relevant here. The page has been heavily edited by people associated with Dr. Casali. We do not know for certain if any of them have been paid. People lie about that all the time, however. Jytdog (talk) 04:32, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I understand. My belief was just based off of what the notice says. I know I have no say in the matter. I realize you don't think I am who I say based on the emphasis on the "Dr." I am sorry that you don't. If you knew him like I do (or knew me), you would understand but I guess that is irrelevant. Anyway, I am not trying to anger anyone or cause issues, just trying help him out if I can. --Meriville (talk) 04:39, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

You need to here to help Wikipedia first. If you are not, your editing privileges will be restricted or removed. The page is still in need of a great deal of cleanup to remove promotional content, like "Ultimately, his research provided the first clear understanding of how viruses directly modulate human lymphocyte functions, particularly antibody production by B lymphocytes, thereby opening a new avenue of research in viral immunobiology" in the first paragraph under research. The paper itself cannot be the source for a claim about the impact of the paper on the field. Editing like that is obviously by someone conflicted and violates several content policies (WP:V, WP:OR, WP:NPOV, and WP:PROMO, to be exact). The COI tag cannot be removed until the page is cleared of that sort of pollution.

On your talk page I tried to provide you with guidance about Wikipedia's policies. Please again review User:Jytdog/How and the description of the policies and guidelines there. Then look at the content carefully to see places where it violates those policies and guidelines. Suggestions for changes need to comply with those policies and guidelines. Please focus on cleaning up the content. When the content is cleaned up the tags can be removed. Jytdog (talk) 04:42, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I tried to leave a message but it said there was an edit conflict. However, you actually answered my question in your second comment. I did read through the information you provided. I obviously misunderstood the point of the two notices. I will propose changes for the content so that it no longer violates the policies and guidelines. --Meriville (talk) 04:49, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

OK. Jytdog (talk) 05:58, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Education Section Edit Request

The following is a proposed change for the education section of the article. The proposed version eliminates some references and is shorter. I used two of the references that were already in the article but removed three others. I removed some of the information such as the year of his graduation, years of his postgraduate work, and other fine details. While true, they are not supported by the references so they should not be in the article. I know my opinion doesn't matter, but I believe the new version reads less like a LinkedIn profile than the current version and more like an entry I would read in an encyclopedia. --Meriville (talk) 00:23, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Current version:

Casali received a degree in medicine and surgery (M.D.) magna cum laude,[1] from the University of Milan in 1974.[3] He completed an internship at the University of Milan’s School of Medicine & Surgery, as well as obtained National Medical Board Certification.[4] Casali holds two specialty diplomas and board certifications from the University of Milan in the fields of allergy and clinical immunology as well as microbiology and virology.[5] From 1977–1978 he completed his postgraduate work at the World Health Organization's (W.H.O.) Immunology Research and Training Centre where, as W.H.O Medical Officer, he was assigned to ALERT medical facility (then named the All-Africa Leprosy Rehabilitation and Training Center) located in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.[6]

Proposed version:

Casali received his degree in medicine and surgery magna cum laude from the University of Milan and served as a resident in the Department of Internal Medicine. His postgraduate education includes research in immunology at the University of Geneva medical school and working as a field officer in Ethiopia with the World Health Organization. Casali holds two specialty diplomas and board certifications from the University of Milan in the fields of Allergy and Clinical Immunology as well as Microbiology and Virology.

References

Sorry, but a press release based on his own bio is not an independent reliable source; nor is it probable that he received his degree "magna cum laude", because Italian universities do not award that bonus (see it:Magna_cum_laude) – he may have achieved "centodieci e lode", the highest possible mark under the current system, or some different mark such as "sessanta e lode" under an older régime. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 00:58, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Comments and questions

Thanks for the response. You saved me a lot of time by pulling out some of the content as it would likely have taken me weeks to go through everythign before it was determined that it didn't belong. Prior to suggesting additional edits to address the notices at the top of the page, can you tell me if the sources currently in the article are considered reliable? If not, can we remove the ones that are not along with the content they support? I am also wondering if based on the few references that are there if he would even qualify for a page. If he does, then it would make sense to simply cut out everything that is not sourced to a reliable source. If he doesn't, then maybe the page shouldn't exist. Sorry for all the questions. If you can let me know so I know how to proceed here. --Meriville (talk) 03:29, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Meriville, the problem I see with the sources is that they are all (or almost all?) in some way connected to him and/or apparently based on his own bio; Taylor & Francis is the only one that looks to me sufficiently independent. What we'd really like to see here is some coverage in sources that are completely unconnected to him, and thus more or less certain to be impartial – national newspaper articles, reviews of recent developments in his field, books on that topic, etc. The sourcing problem is a fairly common one with academics – they are notable by our standards, but no-one has written much or anything about them. As for whether he should have an article, I believe that based on the number of citations of his work he almost certainly should. While he is overshadowed by Paolo Casali the oncologist, I see more than 500 citations for this paper for example, which seems to satisfy criterion 1 of WP:PROF. However, the community at large may see things differently; you can nominate the page for deletion if you think fit. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:32, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. That also makes things a little easier. I certainly don't want to see it deleted, but I also want to maintain the integrity of Wikipedia as outlined by Jytdog in the many policies he referenced. I just didn't want to waste anyone's time further if he did not qualify for a Wikipedia page. If that is the only reliable source, then I would propose everything else is removed except for the first sentence of the article. We can then use Taylor & Francis to support it since that reference mentions what is in the first sentence of the article. Would that be an option? There certainly doesn't need to be anything in the article that cannot be cited according to Wikipedia policy. --Meriville (talk) 03:02, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers, I uploaded a new image to Wikimedia Commons. I took the photo and own the copyright to it. I release it for use here and will email the permission in a little bit. If possible, can we please add it to the Wikipedia article? (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Paolo_Casali_June_20,_2018.jpg). Also, I was wondering if you had a chance to look at the edit request above to remove most of the information from the article? Thank you for taking the time to look at this. --Meriville (talk) 03:09, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Reply 08-JUL-2018

 Unable to implement.

1. The image you've uploaded to Commons is currently nominated for deletion. Adding the file to the article cannot occur until and unless the file is retained.
2. The other portion of your request has not been replied to in the past 11 days. This may be due to the fact that your request was modified since you first proposed it. Modifications to an edit request are indeed useful and pertinent in crafting text for an article. However, the caveat is that in these modifications, the discussion's impetus can be lost, as editors lose track of which modification is the "current" one being proposed. This often occurs in lengthy discussions where there is a large amount of text for an editor to read and follow along with.
3. In order to understand and review this compromise request of yours which appears to have been lost in the above exchanges, it would be helpful if you restated it in clear terms as to what the changes are and how they should be incorporated into the article. This restatement should comprise 3 main elements:

"Please change X to Y using Z."

X	Y	Z
A verbatim description of old text coming out of the article.	A verbatim description of new text going into the article.	A reference which verifies the change.

Please feel free to open a new edit request which makes use of the three elements shown above at your earliest convenience.
Regards,  spintendo  09:32, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Spintendo. Request made below. --Meriville (talk) 05:46, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

New Edit Request

Please remove ALL of the content on the article with the exception of the first sentence which reads as follows:

"Paolo Casali is an Italian-American immunologist. He is the Zachry Foundation Distinguished Professor at the Long School of Medicine of the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, and chairman of its department of microbiology, immunology and molecular genetics."

Please use this references - https://www.tandfonline.com/action/journalInformation?show=editorialBoard&journalCode=iaut20

This is based on the conversations above about that being the only reliable source in the article. Since all the other information is supported by unreliable sources, I would request it be removed. Once removed, the notices at the top of the page should be satisfied and removed as well. --Meriville (talk) 05:44, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Reply 09-JUL-2018

 Implemented

1. Y The requested portions of the text were removed. Tandfonline as a source for the positions of professor, chair of the department, etc. doesn't speak as well as references from those facilities do, so I've retained those sources.
2. Y The Tone maintenance template was removed.
3. I would like to receive approval from editor's @Jytdog: and @Justlettersandnumbers: before removing the remaining templates, just to be sure.
4. Even though you specified removing "everything but the first sentence", I retained the infobox.

Regards,  spintendo  09:43, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Spintendo, I'm not sure that it's a great idea to remove sourced material just because a COI editor asks for it to be removed; however, those sources are not independent, so he/she has a point. I'm happy for the UPE and COI tags to be removed at this point – I think all the current text was written by me – but would like to hear what Jytdog thinks too. The third-party tag should remain, because what this page really needs is ... third-party sources. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:00, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Good enough. Not good, but good enough. Jytdog (talk) 13:31, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Jytdog, Justlettersandnumbers, and Spintendo. I appreciate everyone taking the time to look through these requests despite me having a conflict of interest. I don't believe there are any better sources out there to help the page at the moment but will advise if any do become available. The other image I uploaded is up for deletion as well despite me sending an email confirming permission. I do not want to waste anyone else's time so that image can be deleted and I will let the people at Wikimedia Commons know. In the meantime, is it possible to add this one (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Casali.jpg) which is from 2015? --Meriville (talk) 03:44, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Image Request

There is an image currently in Wikimedia Commons that I am requesting to be uploaded to this article. This one was uploaded in 2015 and appears that it can be used. It is at this link - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Casali.jpg Thank you again for your consideration. --Meriville (talk) 04:27, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

 Implemented (File added to infobox)

 spintendo  05:21, 14 July 2018 (UTC)