Talk:Pinot gris

Note

Two points:

1. 1: "In the Middle Ages, the grape was popularized in the region by Hungarian traders who were introduced to the grape from Burgundy."

This statement is false; Pinot Gris was not known in Alsace in the Middle Ages. It is not mentioned in exhaustive litterature from mid-16th century, in Alsace.

1. 2: The association between Lazarus von Schwendi and Pinot Gris. This association is dismissed in the French wikipedia ("tradition aussie fausse que tenace") and, I believe, for good reason. While it is historically documented that Schwendi indeed conquered Tokaj from the Vojvod of Siebenbürgen in 1565, his booty included large volumes of wine but cuttings of vine are not mentioned. The grape is, according to a communication from the Library of the Strasbourg University first mentioned in Alsace c. 1750, when it was, indeed, imported by Hungarian merchants. I would like some further confirmation from some other source for that, though.

NilsGLindgren (talk) 20:16, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I removed the name "Auvernat Gris" because I couldn't tell if it was the same as "Auvergnat Gris" and couldn't tell whether it referred to Pinot gris ot Pinot Meunier or both (I suspect). Rmhermen 13:56, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

Synonyms Table

Is anyone good at making tables? I think that would probably be the best way to present all the various synonyms and different countries. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 22:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Information

I've found it pretty hard to look for a lot of info on this grape. Anyone have the same problem? Charleenmerced ^Talk 14:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

Yeah. That or stuff that I 'know', but can't easily verify... --Limegreen 23:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Well Limegreen, if you give me any facts or info that you would liked verified, I can try and do it. I have a hme almost oall of the libary books on wine plus, ther eis alwas the internet. Charleenmerced ^Talk 08:05, 24 March 2007 (UTC)CHarleenmerced

Well I've heard numerous winemakers discussing how the varietal characters develop late in the berries, often after the sugars are already getting very high. This then leaves a dilemma, make a sweeter wine, or a 'high octane' (15-16%) wine. However, having said that this is the case, it may be more to do with local growing conditions than a universal truth. --Limegreen 09:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• • Sorry, couldn't find any of that in my books. Check the internet. Charleenmerced ^Talk 15:14, 25 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

I've been trying. I haven't won yet ;) --Limegreen 23:16, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I struggle with the first sentence of this article. In the AOC rules for Burgundy, Pinot Gris can only be used in Red wine. So how is it a White Wine Grape? (Victor Middlesex (talk) 00:44, 20 May 2011 (UTC))

Sorry but you're wrong. In the french decree about Burgundy AOC, you can read in § V.1° that pinot gris can be used secondaryly either (a) for white wines and (b) for red wines.

The § V.2° makes clear that pinot gris' planting may not exceed (a) 10% for white wines and (b) 15% for red wines and that it must be planted among the other grapes.

I'd also like to make clear that both pinot noir and pinot gris are dark grapes with light juice. The color of the wine comes from the skin of the berries and is a matter of winemaking.

Hope this helps. Papatt (talk) 03:05, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Mistitled/Broken Reference Link

Reference link #19 (a,b, & c) is mistitled and broken. The title should be "Professional Friends of Wine" (NOT "The Winepros" - an Australian-based commercial wine -selling site goes by this name, so applying this title to PfW invites legal conflict).

To fix the link so that it points to the proper page, remove the suffix "l" (*.htm, NOT *.html).

I was unable to figure out how to edit the reference links or I would have performed this task myself.

Jim LaMar 15:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)Jim LaMar

It was actually a misplaced "|" not the letter "l", but I've gone ahead and fixed it as per your request.--Limegreen 22:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thoughts on assessment

This article seems to a borderline B, more on the B side than not. Extra thoughts are sought on this. The most glaring concern is the skimpiness on the wine region sections outside of Alsace. There is certainly more that can be discussed about Pinot gris (only two lines on Italian Pinot grigio?) than just Alsatian. The absence of a food pairing section is also a little concerning, especially since Pinot gris is always brought up as a major food pairing wine. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 23:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The article certainly seems unbalanced with respect to Pinot Grigio. This is a hugely popular Italian wine in Europe - you'll probably find it in every wine bar in London! - whereas outside its region of production the Pinot Gris is known only to the more informed wine drinker. This is of course a matter of volume rather than quality - though high quality Pinot Grigios do exist. I do not feel well enough informed to expand the section on Italy/Pinot Grigio, but someone should do so, and bring that up to the level of erudition and information shown for Alsace. 86.9.90.50 (talk) 03:37, 7 February 2009 (UTC) dww [not registered]

Pinot Gris popularity

I propose to remove this final sentence from the lead paragraph as outdated. It predicts, in 2005, that as of the end of 2007, Pinot Gris would be the second most popular white wine. That prediction is now irrelevant, and I cannot find a suitable source to verify the current popularity of Pinot Gris.

Due to the grape's rising popularity, ACNielsen research data predicts that Pinot gris/Pinot grigio will overtake White Zinfandel as the fourth best selling varietal in the United States by the end of 2007.

If nobody has a source, I propose to delete the sentence as now outdated.Veritasjohn (talk) 21:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it was a strange statement to have, especially in the introduction. It could perhaps have belonged in a subsection on US market in some section or other. I kept the reference but moved it to the history section and used it for a statement on PG increasing in popularity (beginning) a few years ago. Tomas e (talk) 20:25, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Muscat de Colmar?

I have removed the following sentence from the Alsace section, since I believe it to be somewhat misleading:

"In Alsace, the grape has been blended [crossed was probably meant] with Muscat Ottonel to create the Muscat de Colmar variety which became available to growers in 2006.<ref name="Clarke pg 147"> Oz Clarke ''Encyclopedia of Grapes'' pg 147 Harcourt Books 2001 ISBN 0151007144 </ref>"

It is stated in the Muscat article of Clarke's book (and I'm reading from a translated edition) that it was experimental plantations, so my understanding is that it is not really available if you want to produce wine labelled Alsace (and certainly not Pinot gris), since it is not mentioned as an allowed variety in the AOC rules as of their latest 2006 edition. Furthermore, I don't find the variety "Muscat de Colmar" in the Vitis International Variety Catalogue, so either the experiment was abandoned or another name was chosen. It could belong under a "related varieties" heading, but under Alsace I think it was misleading. Tomas e (talk) 20:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

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Szurkebarat

After some discussion, Szurkebarat was redirected to Pinot gris, along with its talk page. Certes (talk) 22:52, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

pinecone

""The word "Pinot", which means "pinecone" in French""

I'm quite sure this is not true, never heard this, can't find it in the dictionary. "pomme de pin" means pine-cone in French. I'm French. 86.68.122.40 (talk) 20:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree, I'm French too. I changed somewhat the sentence but the link to google books learns and proves nothing at all. Papatt (talk) 03:11, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

If anyone's interested, the word does indeed come from French - however, not standard French, but rather the old dialect of Bourgogne. Its persistence may be due to its early adoption into English in that form. See http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/pineau for a discussion. Mahousu (talk) 17:45, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

what does this mean? strongly pow

"Many pioneers are included in the discovery of this rare blend such as the Taub Family or the owners of Santa Margarita, today the number 1 imported pinot gris is Cavit." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.138.73.1 (talk) 15:09, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Pinot gris/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Pinot does not mean pinecone in French. A pinecone is a "pomme de pin". Unfortunately the word Pinot does not appear in my extremely thick Robert French dictionary so I don't know what it means or what its derivation is 87.113.117.210 (talk) 17:34, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 17:34, 4 October 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 03:03, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 16 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved – while there weren't formal !votes cast, the elaborate discussion at Talk:Pinot noir established a precedent for keeping this at lowercase as well. Plantdrew's argument that wine variety titles do not fall under MOS:LIFE also noted. No such user (talk) 11:04, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

---

Pinot gris → Pinot Gris – Per MOS:LIFE, grape cultivars should have the first letter of each word in their name capitalized every time. I understand that there are no firm style rules for grape cultivars outside of Wikipedia, but this page should conform to the Wikipedia Manual of Style for cultivars. QuintinK (talk) 15:34, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

• Comment There was a similar recent request at Talk:Pinot noir, which was not moved. 162 etc. (talk) 16:41, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

  I noticed that request, but not before it had closed. Their discussion was entirely about capitalization norms outside Wikipedia and failed to consider the Wikipedia style guide, which is quite clear on the issue. QuintinK (talk) 17:19, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

There are firm rules for capitalizing formally named cultivars outside of Wikipedia, and MOS:LIFE is based on those. However, I'm not certain that there is a formal cultivar name here. In general, formal cultivar names are much more likely to have been established for plants grown as ornamentals than for plants grown for food (or wine). Plantdrew (talk) 17:02, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

That's a good point I hadn't considered. I researched a bit on whether grape varieties/varietals are cultivars or not. Based on what I'm reading, named, propagated grapes are definitely cultivars. "Variety" is just grape-specific jargon for cultivar.

A named, cultivated grape variety is formally referred to as a “cultivar.” However, the more common designation of “variety” is used in this book because of its greater use in non-technical publications.

— Ted Goldammer, Grape Growers Handbook

A cultivated variety, or “cultivar,” is a formal term for variety. Variety is the more common term, and will be used in this publication.

— Grape Varieties for North-central New Mexico

Right, grape "varieties" are cultivars. A cultivar must exist before it can be formally named, but not every cultivar that exists has been formally named under the ICNCP and its standards of capitalization. There are other ways to name cultivars. A plant breeder is likely to have some (relatively informal) codename system to keep records on the plants they are growing. There could be a formal trade designation (which might have its own standards of capitalization). I haven't found any evidence that Pinot (G/g)ris is a name that has been established under the ICNCP (and I wouldn't really expect it to be; ampelographers have established their own classification, which predates the ICNCP). Plantdrew (talk) 02:53, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article List of grape varieties says: "The term grape variety refers to cultivars rather than actual botanical varieties according to the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants, because they are propagated by cuttings and may have unstable reproductive properties. However, the term variety has become so entrenched in viticulture that any change to using the term cultivar instead is unlikely." However, I don't have access to their source to confirm. QuintinK (talk) 20:12, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

• Comment What source do we have saying this is a cultivar name (i.e. appearing in single quotes as 'Pinot Gris' as part of the scientific name)? I suspect this is incorrect supposition and that this is a broader variety with several cultivars.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:20, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

The situation with Pinot Gris is probably along the lines of Red Delicious#Sports (mutations), except that we have pretty good records tracing the lineage of clones back to a single plant in 1872 for Red Delicious, and no such records that go back to ~1300 for Pinot Gris. "Pinot Gris G" is some sort of unit in classification of currently cultivated vines in France that includes five clones (52, 53, 457, 1329 and 1344) under whatever exactly that classification is [1][2]. The numbered clones would certainly be eligible for ICNCP cultivar names. Plantdrew (talk) 03:15, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Internal capitalization

I'm not super impressed that the pinot noir article does not proper case 'pinot noir', either in title or text, but our link here does, despite our own page title itself not being capitalized. I read a bit and I know this is complicated. But my vote would be that Wikipedia eschews letter case inflation except where there's an entirely concrete reason, such as a proper geographical place name, or a scientifically established cultivar name (with a known, direct connection). — MaxEnt 22:15, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Immediately above is a long discussion of just that issue. It would suggest that lower case should be used. Be bold and make it so. SchreiberBike | ⌨  23:18, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

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Pinot gris, or pinot grigio, is a grape variety of the species Vitis vinifera used to make white wine. Thought to be a mutant clone of pinot noir, it normally has a pinkish-gray hue, accounting for its name, but the colors can vary from blue-gray to pinkish-brown. Pinot gris thrives in cooler climates, with the major growing regions being Alsace in France, northeastern Italy and the U.S. state of Oregon. The wines vary greatly with these regions; for example, Alsatian pinot gris wines are medium to full-bodied and tend to be spicy in comparison with others. This photograph of a bunch of pinot gris grapes was focus-stacked from twelve separate frames.

Photograph credit: Reinhold Möller

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