Talk:Prince Emil of Hesse and by Rhine

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Requested move 4 November 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Prince Emil of Hesse and by Rhine be renamed and moved to Prince Emil of Hesse.

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Prince Emil of Hesse and by Rhine → Prince Emil of Hesse – Per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CRITERIA, WP:NCPRINCES, and WP:SURPRISE, I request that the title for the article on the fourth son of Louis I, Grand Duke of Hesse be changed. An extended rationale follows on the article's talk page. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 21:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended rationale

WP:COMMONNAME, WP:RECOGNIZABILITY, and WP:NATURALNESS - Prince Emil of Hesse is more frequently used (and hence a more recognizable and natural term) to refer to Louis I's son. When comparing English-language Google hits: A - "Prince Emil of Hesse" returns 223 non-Wiki results, whereas B - "Prince Emil of Hesse and by Rhine" yields only 67 (i.e. only 30 percent as many) non-Wiki results. Additionally, on Google Books Ngram Viewer, while "Emil of Hesse" generates some results, this is not the case for "Emil of Hesse and by Rhine" (see C (I found no results for either "Prince Emil of Hesse" or "Prince Emil of Hesse and by Rhine" on Ngram)).
WP:PRECISION - As the cited guideline notes:
Usually, titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that. For instance, Saint Teresa of Calcutta is too precise, as Mother Teresa is precise enough to indicate exactly the same topic.
Likewise, and by Rhine is an overprecise disambiguator for Louis's son. Although there are many other branches of the House of Hesse (see here), none of them have a member called Emil who has an English Wikipedia article.
WP:CONCISE - Prince Emil of Hesse is only 4 words long, whereas Prince Emil of Hesse and by Rhine is 7 words long.
WP:CONSISTENT - There is already precedent for omitting the specific Hessian branch in article titles if there is no ambiguity or a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. For example, the title for the article on Emil's father is Louis I, Grand Duke of Hesse, not Louis I, Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine. Similarly, Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse), not Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse and by Rhine) (Emil's niece), as well as Alexandra Feodorovna (Alix of Hesse) instead of Alexandra Feodorovna (Alix of Hesse and by Rhine) (Emil's great-grandniece), are article titles.
WP:NCPRINCES and WP:SURPRISE - As #2 of the former guideline notes,
Where [princes] have no substantive title, use the form "{title} {name} of {country}", e.g. Princess Irene of Greece and Denmark.
akin to my proposed title. Also, as noted above, Emil's father's article is titled Louis I, Grand Duke of Hesse. Per the latter guideline, I could reasonably imagine an astonished reader asking, "If Prince Emil's father is the Grand Duke of Hesse, then why is Emil of Hesse and by Rhine?".

AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 21:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Support per nom, particularly WP:CONCISE and WP:COMMONNAME. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:27, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. 66.99.15.163 (talk) 14:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

To be completely transparent, I am interested in similarly retitling the articles on other Hessian princes. Consequently, I intend to use this dicussion to "test the waters" and see if the community would support such changes. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 21:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a reasonable course of action, provided that there is no need to disambiguate any of them from homonyms in other branches of the House of Hesse. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:27, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Normally I'd just close this as successful, but since a number of articles are potentially at issue, I'm giving it another week in case there's any other input. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]