Talk:Rose water

Move

I moved this page without discussion, as I do not think it is controversial. However, if anyone disagrees with me, please feel free to change it back and/or take the matter to requested moves. By far the most common spelling for the substance seems to be "rose water". That is what the American Heritage Dictionary has, as do two reference books about food. One of the books is published by the Oxford University Press, so I am guessing that there is no difference between American and British spellings. I also searched Google for both versions. "Rose water" returned websites talking about the substance, but "rosewater" seemed to mostly refer to a surname. -- Kjkolb (talk) 00:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The sentence says "due to the prohibition of alcohol consumption in Islamic countries." Alcohol is not banned in all Islamic countries, it is widely available in several of them (UAE, Qatar, Oman, Turkey, Malaysia, Syria, etc) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.167.250.43 (talk) 06:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Islam does not forbid ethyl alcohol as a solvent for technical use, and the use of alcohol in perfumery is also allowed. The prohibition of ethyl alcohol in some Islamic countries refers to fermented and distilled alcohol for oral use and as an intoxicant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.1.72.125 (talk) 21:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Calque?

"Rose water is a calque of Persian word Golab (Persian: گلاب)." That sounds odd to me. Doesn't Golab, like Gulab in other countries, refer to the flower, the colour, etc., not specifically the rose water? Nadiatalent (talk) 19:04, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

REPLY: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=julep&allowed_in_frame=0 the webpage above confirms that rose water comes from Golab or Jolab, (gol=rose, aab = water) 89.242.248.91

This is potentially confusing to those of us with minimal languages. A Bengali dictionary says that "rose" is "golap", and "gulabi" in Hindi is "pink". Nadiatalent (talk) 14:41, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh come on. The link above claims that "julep" comes from the Persian "golab" meaning rose-water. It doesn't claim that the English phrase "rose water" is a calque of "golab." That doesn't even make sense. Rose water is called rose water because it is water mixed with roses. It's no surprise that multiple languages use their previously-existing words for "rose" and "water" to describe a mix of water and rose petals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.12.183.84 (talk) 20:11, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

If I understand your intention correctly, you'd agree that the statement should be removed, so I've done that. Nadiatalent (talk) 21:44, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Rose essence?

How does rose essence relate to rose water and other rose products? Nadiatalent (talk) 18:37, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Uses

"In the United States, rose syrup is used to make rose scones and marshmallows."

This...I just don't know quite what to say. It may be factually correct, but...but...You could probably say the same of France, or Germany or England or anywhere else they may make scones or marshmallows. It would be more correct and less misleading to say, "rose syrup may be used in baking and confectionery, for example in making rose scones or marshmallows...as seen..." But it's also use in flavoring pastries made with phyllo, and in pastries in Asian countries, in beverges all over the world!

Rose syrup is used all over the world, most prominently in Asia and the Middle East, less so in Europe and the Americas.

"A rose water ointment is occasionally used as an emollient..."

Two things (at least)...rosewater is used in cosmetics because it smells good. Yes, it is claimed to have certain desireable properties in addition to a pleasing aroma but this is another case where it would be better to say that "rosewater is used in cosmetic and beauty preparations..." and expand on that a bit.

And you're leaving out the old, centuries, I'd guess, standby: glycerine and rosewater lotion. Really, centuries. Maybe millenia. It's common all over the world, even today, with many commercial products available, although it is easily made at home. Zlama (talk) 21:27, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Persian monopoly through 1650, really?

Although this sentence has long been tagged as needing a citation, I'd like to challenge it here, in case anyone does have a reliable cite for it. "Until 350 years ago rose water, or gol-aab, was only distilled in Persia..." From 'Economic History of Medieval India, 1200-1500' p. 56, "How extensively the production of rose water had spread through throughout [India] by this time is indicated by the low prices that Ibn Battuta in ['Rihla'] recorded of rose water in the mid 1340s in Bengal: it fetched no more than half the price of ghee of the same weight." (ghee=butter) Supposedly an old (11th century?) Sanskrit book, called Ark-prakash, attributes the discovery of rosewater to Nagarjuna, ca 200 CE, and while I have my doubts about that, I think that claims of a Persian monopoly of over 6 centuries really need some good references to keep from disappearing. 173.228.54.175 (talk) 16:30, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

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need to add section of rose water in india

since vedic times, indians knew rose water and has been mentioned in several texts including bhagwat geeta, charaka samhita etc i think this page needs to mention that indians knew rose water since very ancient times, it may just be that avisena made the process more economical and cheap. It is also claimed that rose attar was first made by persians even though indians already knew rose water and attars, so indians must have known rose attars.

Research Report for Historical Study of Attars and essence making in Kannauj

The rose comes from ancient times in India as per record of

old Sanskrit literature as “Tarunipushpa”, “Atimanjula” and “Semantika”. Rose growing in India developed with distillation of roses mentioned in Ayurveda by Charaka around 100 A.D. With the advent of Mughal Emperor Babur in 1526 begins the history of Indian rose industry, when the Persian rose or Damask rose (Rosa

damascena) was introduced in India from Persia.

INTRODUCTION

202.188.53.210 (talk) 05:56, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Dubious claim of origin in India, and mention in the Bhagavad Gita

The text describing the production of rose water as likely originating in Persia was removed, and replaced with the following:

Bhagavat Gita describes the use of sandal wood and rose water being sprayed at the Swayamvara of Draupadi.

I have reverted that edit, because despite the citation, the statement is highly dubious. The story of the Swayamvara of Draupadi is not contained in the Bhagavad Gita, but in the Adi Parva. I checked two translations of the Swayamvara Parva in the Adi Parva, and only sandal water paste is mentioned, not rose water. Dutt's translation: "It resounded with the notes of thousands of trumpets, — it was scented with Aguru (black aloe), ornamented with garlands and sprinkled with the sandal water paste." Ganguli's translation: "And resounding with the notes of thousands of trumpets, it was scented with black aloes and sprinkled all over with water mixed with sandal-paste and decorated with garlands of flowers." A search found no instance of the phrase "rose water" anywhere in the Mahabharata.

I also searched three translations of the Bhagavad Gita, none of which contain the phrase "rose water". I wasn't able to find any other information through a Google search about rose water being mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita. Finally, the provided source itself on page 37 goes on to say: "In his studies in the History of Indian Cosmetics and Perfumery, Prof. P. K. Gode outlines the chronology of rose flower, rose water and rose attar from 2000 BC in which he has traced the import of rose to India from Farsistan in Persia between 810 and 817 AD." --IamNotU (talk) 18:11, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

References

Qamsar rose water

@Trople: Edit warring is not the solution, i suggest we discuss here as per WP:BRD. Thanks. I think that you misunderstood WP:NPOV, it's not against the inclusion of the statement you removed, it says that "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.", i.e. if you have sources that contradict the claim about Qamsar making the best rose water in the world, please provide them and we will reword the lede. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:30, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

You obviously wanted an edit war; you undid my clearly-described changes in their entirety without properly justifying yourself, twice. If you are not willing to allow other people to edit this article, then you clearly feel that you own it; you do not.

The source of the best rose water in the world is not something that can be verified. You can say "source X holds opinion Y"; you cannot present opinion Y in the voice of the encyclopaedia. That is a gross violation of NPOV. Trople (talk) 20:45, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

This is not a way to behave towards fellow wikipedians, don't make personalized comments like above, focus on content, not editors. Again, you got the WP:NPOV guideline wrong while i have quoted the relevant part of it just above.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:55, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion:

Iran accounts for 90% of world production.[2](Redacted)

Or, alternatively, the material from Iranica can be moved to the body of the article. - LouisAragon (talk) 21:02, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

agreed with LouisAragon's proposal, as per inline cite.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:08, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

We can't copy from Encylopedia Iranica; it's not compatibly licensed. Sorry,— Diannaa (talk) 19:05, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

@Diannaa and LouisAragon: Then i suggest including this sentence : "The golāb of Qamṣar in Kāšān, has been described as being the best. Golābgirān, the ceremonial process of plucking roses and extracting golāb from them in April-May, has become a tourist attraction.". Please let me know if you agree.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:52, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Iranica does not provide a source for the claim that the golāb from Qamṣar is the best. I would leave that out. Your wording is still too close to the source. How about this:

Central Iran is home to the annual Golabgiri festival each spring. Thousands of tourists visit the area to celebrate the rose harvest for the production of golāb.

— Diannaa (talk) 20:17, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Sounds good to me.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:39, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Wiki Education assignment: Food in the Islamic Middle East

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 12 January 2023 and 24 April 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Fieryraisins (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by IamBookcat (talk) 01:22, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

History section

@Bon courage: Hi, may i suggest you read what the sources say before labeling my edits as "not improving" ? Thank you.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 07:29, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

May I suggest you adjust your bad attitude into one compatible with Wikipedia's norms? Bon courage (talk) 07:39, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@Bon courage: Uh ?? so i edit he article in GF, you revert me and when i come here (per WP:BRD) to ask you to read the sources, you ignore my demand, make a personal attack instead and i'm the one who has a bad attitude ? I suggest you to respond properly and engage in a constructive discussion or this will end at ANI. ---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:34, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Your assumption that my edit was not based on reading what was in the source was in bad faith, and your "demand" impudent. Your edit took us further away from the source than at present. Bon courage (talk) 09:32, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Let me see if i got this one straight ...

so, source number 6 says "Rose petals were already used in Persian cookery to perfume and flavor dishes long before the technique of distilling rose water was developed", this isn't in the article, and this edit of mines says the same thing with my words to comply with copyrights rules of Wiki. The two other sources deal with the origin of rose water, i left them alone. I edited the article in good faith, improved it by sticking to what the cited source says and your above responses are both deterring and constitute personal attacks. there is nothing "impudent" in demanding to an editor to check what the sources say, yet you still failed to justify your revert. I have no problem with rewording it with other words than mines, since the current version of the article is too far from what the cites say.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 10:26, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I know what the sources say, and your summary was not an improvement over the current text. Bon courage (talk) 10:30, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Why exactly ? Where is the article mentioning that the Persians cultivated flowers to obtain perfumes for a long time (before developing rose water) ? This information sounds quite relevant here since it reflects the long process which led to the discovery of rose water. The current wording is too far from what the source 6 says.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 10:50, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

What is "a long time"? 5 months? 5 centuries? See WP:RELTIME. The sources are not certain of the Persian origin either. Bon courage (talk) 12:02, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

The wording about a long time is what the source says, it's not our job, as editors, to give our own interpretation. Removing a content that gives some perspective about the development of rose water is irrelevant. As to the origin, all the source unanimously say that rose water has been "discovered" or "probably discovered" in Persia or by Persian chemists, that is enough.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 12:39, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Not really, anyway now you see the problems I hope. Bon courage (talk) 12:40, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Not really ? What do you mean ? I still don't see why you reverted my edits, which go with what the sources say and give more perspective about the development of rose water. With your rationale, all the sentences like the opening one of the history section "since ancient times" should be removed overall Wikipedia. What are ancient times ? 7 years ago ? 7 centuries ago ? 7000 years ago ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:06, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. An opportunity to improve the article there! Your edits did not satisfy WP:V so well as what we have, as I have explained. Bon courage (talk) 13:14, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Which part of my edits did not satisfy VER exactly ? I just went by what the source says with my words.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:26, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Your certainty over origin, your long time, and your claim RW was made into perfumes. Bon courage (talk) 13:37, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I said "certainly" in my edits ?? where ? Also, While source 8 leaves some room for doubt, sources 6 and 7 give the origin with little doubt. If "long time" was a problem for you (even if, for topics like this one, long time obviously means centuries, not months ...), why not just remove that part instead of a mass revert ? As to RW, don't know what you're talking about.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:52, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

RW is "Rose Water". I have explained the revert, and have nothing further to add. Bon courage (talk) 13:55, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Never said that rose water was made in perfumes. We have a problem here, since you refuse to accept edits that are in compliance with what the cited sources say along with misrepresentation of what they say (like saying that they don't give the origin of rose water with enough certainty while 2 of the 3 do so) and we don't want an edit-war either.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:14, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, you put roses (not water): "for a long time, the Persians cultivated flowers to obtain perfumes", sourced to a source which says "Rose petals were already used in Persian cookery to perfume and flavor dishes long before the technique of distilling rose water was developed". Bon courage (talk) 14:19, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I will make another proposal here on the talk when i have time for that, feel free to comment it.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:32, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Proposal

@Bon courage: I suggest to reword the sentence as follows : "Rose water likely originated in Persia,[sources 6, 7 and 8] however, before the development of the technique of distilling rose water, rose petals were already used in Persian cuisine to perfume and flavor dishes.[source 6]". Sounds closer to what the sources say.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:48, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Not objection to that if the useless "however" is deleted. Bon courage (talk) 20:52, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Ok, then i'll put the second part of the sentence first, in order to make the junction with the rest of the section.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:35, 23 May 2023 (UTC)