Talk:Sailor Jupiter/Japanese names discussion

Why is this the Japanese title?

We have an English name, and this is Lita (or Sailor Jupiter). Unless there is an official usage of Makoto Kino in the English anime or manga, we should follow naming conventions guidelines. Additionally, an article should always NOT be aimed at preferential treatment towards people who know the character much - and even though Lita may be a crappy name, that'd be the most familiar name. - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I was not here when the consensus was formed on the names, but I gather that we use the Japanese names for consistency and completeness - there were many different dubs/manga translations out there, and not all of them covered all of the characters. If we renamed all the characters to Sailor Jupiter etc. we'd have three articles called Sailor Moon, which would be a bit too confusing, I believe. Both Lita Kino and Sailor Jupiter redirect here. -Malkinann 09:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we use them because dub names are incosestnt ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 11:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Like with Reika being changed to Rita in dub and then back to Reika with no explanation ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 11:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

You want to talk to WP:ANIME if this really bothers you; using the Japanese names is a very common and accepted practice.

As for us specifically, Pink's point is a good one; Ami Mizuno's English version gets two different last names in the series, three of the Outer Senshi (plus Usagi) get two different first names depending on the anime or manga, and many characters from later series have no English names at all. Anyway, imagine changing the Michiru Kaioh article to Michelle Kaioh--are they the same person? Not really; Michiru is an elegant lesbian, while Michelle is flighty and heterosexual. Characterization is vastly different, so we go with the older (internally consistent) version. Actually, that's the case with all coverage of these things. We try to describe the oldest existing version first and then work our way forward--manga, anime, dub, live-action. Using Japanese names helps with organization.

Finally, as Malkinann says, the other names do redirect here, so there should be no confusion. Someone looking for Lita will find her, and since her name is in the first line of the article, there will be no confusion as to whether this is the right place. --Masamage ♫ 18:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

This is all irrelevant - the manual of style (use English) guidelines states that when there is an official English name, it should be used. Unless there's been something to either make the English names non-canon or to make the Japanese name the official English name, the Japanese name shouldn't be used. Also, the argument that there's multiple English names, so we should use the JP name doesn't work - I had this same argument over Magnetica, where someone wanted to use the name Shunkan Puzzloop, because Actionloop was also an official title for the game (the EU title). - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:ENGLISH says nothing about fictional character names; it's too specific an issue for them to get into. The only existing relevant guideline is the one at WP:ANIME, which is to use the name which is most common among English speakers. An English Google search on "'Sailor Jupiter' Lita" turns up 14,200 hits, while "'Sailor Jupiter' Makoto" turns up 24,800. --Masamage ♫ 19:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

thank god for that I was scared we would have to dub the article's ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 20:33, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The english-language licenses have mostly expired to boot - the dub just isn't shown on TV any more (the last time I'm aware of in my country was five or six years ago). Toei isn't renewing any english-language licenses for Sailor Moon. It's unlikely that it will get shown again, because the localisation was a bit of a failure. (Anne Allison's opinion, not mine.) -Malkinann 22:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, More fans prefer the original names over the dub names. And like the others stated the characters name can vary between version to version. Changing them would cause to much controversy. Also, There were major changes to the characters when it was dubbed, an we base our facts on the original version and calling them by the dub name would just confuse readers.Lego3400: The Sage of Time 02:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

lol how on earth would we choose witch dub names where right the attacks where changed on a daily basis ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 02:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

@A Link to the Past: Apart from the fact that we're talking about a person's name here, and not a term or word, a translation of Makoto Kino would be Truth Woodfield (or as the pun goes, Makoto of Trees), which would make even less sense than using Lita, for which the only reasonable argument would be the NA version of the show. If you want to be consistent about applying rules, you'd have to translate the name one-on-one, not refer to the NA version's name of the character. The logical fallacy you're using is called argumentum ad populum, appealing to the fact that more English-speaking fans would recognize the name Lita (which has also been shot down by the Google argument used above). Wiki strives to provide information from a neutral point of view, not an NA POV. --Zyppora 11:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Right - I, who fights to make more articles based on the EU titles, am an NA fanboy. And no, the argument of using the ENGLISH name on the ENGLISH Wiki is not "ad populum" (nice attempt at sounding smart, by the way). Unless Wikipedia guidelines are ad populum too. - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

All rights to release Sailor Moon in any form of English, whether subbed or dubbed, have expired. The dubbed version is unlikely to ever be shown on TV again, so I'd consider it questionable as to whether the dub name of the characters would be the most common names among English speakers.-Malkinann 11:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Allrighty, so since the only person who disagrees with this has stopped making arguments in favor of insulting people whose tone he disapproves of, I think we're probably done. Thanks for the input, everyone. --Masamage ♫ 17:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Ahem, I do believe you are the one who decided the stance of a Wikipedian you've never even met before. So really, before you accuse anyone of making insults toward people whose tone he disapproves of, you should realize that making completely baseless assumptions is a lot worse. I could have pointed out your rampant Japanophilia - which, unfortunately, WP:ANIME does have in spades. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Baseless assumptions? we used a google test we told you that the dub isn't showing anymore so its not the most common among english and WP:Anime gidelines says we can use orignal name ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 20:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I was pretty sure your "nice attempt at sounding smart" was an insult--if you meant it as a compliment, my apologies. I was also pretty sure your stance was that these names should be changed to the English ones--sorry again if that's wrong. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure I never said, "We should keep the Japanese names because I like them," but actually put forth arguments, which you ignored. But no, I guess I'm wrong there too. Geez, I'm just screwing up everything today. --Masamage ♫ 20:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Um, hi? Are you implying that English is only a language in NA, and to fight for English usage is to be NA-biased? So you can argue that I'm arguing for the NA name because I like it, even though A. It's NOT the NA name, and B. I DON'T like it. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

When did we say it was the only language Lita is the NA dub name so you are fighting for it ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 21:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

It is not the Europe name? The fact that you ever so ignore Europe is worse than me fighting against Japanophilia. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

No it isnt DiC is a North Amarica company the dub actress came from NA how much more NA do they need to be? ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 21:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, okay, so in this case, I am fighting for the North American title then. And thusly, because I dare to ever fight for an NA POV, regardless of if I feel it's the right POV to have in a case-by-case basis, I must be some NA fanboy who never tried to keep Dōbutsu no Mori (film) where it was (instead of having it changed to Animal Forest (film), a transliteration of the title), or tried to move both Trace Memory, Mario Strikers Charged, Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day!, and Brain Age 2: More Training in Minutes a Day to Another Code: Two Memories, Mario Strikers Charged Football, Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training: How Old Is Your Brain?, and More Brain Training from Dr. Kawashima: How Old Is Your Brain? (the NA titles to the EU titles). Nope, this is clearly a case of some Minnesotan fighting for a bias (even though my involvement in naming conventions shows me to be at the lowest level of naming bias). - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I never said you wher a NA fan boy you said we we made "baseless assumptions" because of Japanophilia even though we gave you reasions why it should be stay with the orignal names ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 21:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I was accused of trying to give Wikipedia an NA POV. How is that not a baseless assumption? - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

you said "I dare to ever fight for an NA POV, regardless of if I feel it's the right POV" this proves you were trying to give wikipedia NA POV ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 22:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Right - I mean, the fact that I actually fight against it more often than I've ever fought for it doesn't matter - twisting words and taking things out of context is. Such inferior evidence I got - I mean, I only have reality on my side. Get off of Wikipedia until you can actually argue worth your life. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Mabye you should research somthing before trying to change it like what the anime giudelines say or what country the dub company is in before calling people Europian ignorant ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 22:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Unless you're European, I never said that Europeans were ignorant. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry misswored I ment when you said "It is not the Europe name? The fact that you ever so ignore Europe is worse than me fighting against Japanophilia" you meaning were Eroupian ignorent sorry for miswording ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 22:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

It is okay. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Im also sorry for argueing like that but I hope you understand the reasion we keep it in the orignal languege isnt because of Japanophilia its because the reasions we gave before (incosestnty google search ect.)♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 22:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) I'm guessing that what's happened here is that, when you got mad at me for stating that you have an NA POV, it's because you were mentally attributing Zyppora's comment to me. I never said NA at all. I never brought it up. I think POV a silly, useless, and irrelevant issue to be bringing up right now. So will you please respond to the policies I linked above as the reasons why we should be keeping these names? Or else take this shout-fest to your own talk pages? --Masamage ♫ 00:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

And yet, you equated "English speaking" with "living in North America", saying that because I was arguing for the English title, I was arguing for the NA title specifically. Also, Googlehits are not supported by any guidelines whatsoever. I've already shown that they are not representative of what is actually so. Sailor Moon has not been on the air for years, and the only people who would still care would either be a fan of the Japanese dub or a fan who learned of the Japanese dub. Sailor Moon fan sites would obviously use the JP names. That doesn't represent what the lesser fan would want. - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I did no such thing. You're arguing for the name "Lita". That's the name DiC made up for the dubbed anime, which is the one shown in all English-speaking countries. And how have you shown that the Google hits are not representative? I must have missed it. --Masamage ♫ 05:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

What's with this "lesser fan" stuff? None of the Sailor Moon project members has insinuated that people who prefer to use the dub names are "lesser fans", just that they are in the minority on Google. As it'd be impractical to go out in real life and survey the different kinds of English-speaking fans of Sailor Moon, from the targetted little girls to 30-something year old adults (even academics use the internet to gather information on media fandoms), we must rely on internet sources, such as Google, in determining the relative popularity of names.-Malkinann 07:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, here is the any guideline whatsoever you were looking for. "Search engine testing might in some cases assist in discerning which of two alternative versions of a name is more common." This is the text following a link to the page about the Google test, which has detailed information on how to do it properly. --Masamage ♫ 05:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I've already shown lack of logic to Googlehits. According to Googlehits, football is more well-known as the American sport - when there is obviously more people who know it as Associated football. The problem is that North America has a stronger internet presence, in regard to web sites. Similarly, a fan site is created by someone with intricate knowledge of the subject. People who know the character as Lita wouldn't make a fan site. Additionally, IMDB calls the character Lita - which would go to say that people reading IMDB will know her as Lita, not Makoto Kino. - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. (Although IMDB has her listed as "Lita" under the English-release DVDs and as Makoto under the subtitled DVDs, so that one doesn't really work. But your premise stands.) But that doesn't solve the other problems of how article construction would make no sense if we put the least-developed, least consistent version of the character first, and had some characters with Japanese names and some without. And that's without even getting into the arguments over which English name to use. And as Malkinann has said, the licenses are up. People are rapidly ceasing to care about the show anymore. Those who do, by and large, use the Japanese names. Furthermore, Lita and Lita Kino both link here. So I don't see any reason to change things. If nothing else, I'd invoke Ignore All Rules, because this is working terrifically the way it is--as far as I can see, using the dub names would inhibit page organization, and would thus make the encyclopedia slightly worse. --Masamage ♫ 05:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Whoa, I didn't mean to start WWIII here ... the reason I mentioned NA POV is because Lita is the name given to Makoto in the NA version of the show, which was later taken over by various European countries in their translations of the show (contrary to what some say, there is no 'EU version', as the languages between countries differ greatly - some countries even adapted the names a second time). The reason I used the term argumentum ad populum is because of what the TS says in the beginning: 'and even though Lita may be a crappy name, that'd be the most familiar name'. If I read too much into this, then most humble apologies, but it looked pretty unambiguous to me. --Zyppora 12:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so how exactly is Wikipedia not about that? If an NA POV is to give an article an NA name ever, then every logical thinking Wikipedian has an NA POV.

If you didn't understand, I mean to say that "An NA POV is giving an NA title all the time, no matter what."

Also, like I said, if that's "ad populum", Wikipedia is "ad populum", because why in the world should we NOT use the most well-known title? A lesser-known title is only good for those who don't need to learn, and Wikipedia does not cater to the writers. The whole purpose of Wikipedia is to give knowledge, and since the people who are researching the subject will not know this obscure name, the name does not help. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

And, what is wrong with calling the article Sailor Jupiter? Just like Superman isn't titled Kal-El (Superman's real name) because Superman is so much more well-known, Makoto is only well-known to one group of people. Sailor Jupiter is a name known by much more people. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, just wanted to point out:

• "Sailor Moon" +"Sailor Jupiter" gets 117,000 hits
• "Sailor Moon" +Makoto -Lita gets 96,800 hits
• "Sailor Moon" +Lita -Makoto gets 138,000 hits - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Jupiter doesn't work as a title because then Usagi Tsukino's article would be at Sailor Moon, which is already the name of two different articles. And as mentioned repeatedly, "Sailor Jupiter" redirects here. There is no confusion. --Masamage ♫ 23:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

That's not a good argument. It's never been held that because of redirects, it doesn't matter what title is given. Naming conventions wouldn't exist if it didn't matter. Additionally, we have disambig for that - call her "Sailor Moon (character)". - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I simply disagree. --Masamage ♫ 23:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Naming conventions say to call the article its most common English name. Your disagreement is not based on any guidelines or policies - the fact of the matter is that Sailor Jupiter is recognizable by all groups, and probably more recognizable than either name. - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe that many of my points still stand and am tired of restating them. You are unlikely to find consensus for such a change here. Open an RFC if you wish. --Masamage ♫ 23:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

But as you can see, I have Naming conventions and Google hits on my side - one of which you used to argue for Makoto. Are you claiming that Sailor Jupiter is less well-known? If not, are you claiming that it doesn't matter what we use because of redirects? One last question, do you simply think that the guidelines I'm using are wrong? Sailor Jupiter is, in fact, an official name for the character, and is known throughout the world for the character. You may have had an argument for Makoto vs. Lita, that Lita is no longer used ans is only NA-based, but Sailor Jupiter is used in all English-speaking countries that it's been released in, so why use one that's only used in a Japanese-speaking country? - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, the article itself states that she is "best known as Sailor Jupiter". Can you state a reason why we should not use Sailor Jupiter if it's the best known name for the character, why use a little-known name? - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

By the google search, "Makoto" cannot be accurately described as "a little-known name". Like I mentioned in the first place, the decision not to have articles at the "Sailor Jupiter" etc names is primarily because of "Sailor Moon" - as it is, we have two articles called Sailor Moon, (the series and the first story arc) and to have a third at that name would be confusing and annoying - we might even have to go for a disambiguation page. By the way, could you please explain what you meant earlier when you said "lesser fan"? -Malkinann 23:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I have said my piece, and have already counter-argued all the things you just said. The article should stay where it is. A change to "Sailor Jupiter" would work, but would be inferior to the organization we have going now. Hence, WP:IAR: "If the rules prevent you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore them." Since you disagree about what "improving" means, I have nothing more to add. Consensus is on the side of leaving it. If you want lots and lots of outside opinions, you're welcome to go to RFC. --Masamage ♫ 23:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

1. It is less known than Sailor Jupiter. Makoto has no relevance to English viewers who haven't already done their research already.
2. That's irrelevant. We don't seek to give a less advantageous name to Mario just because so many people have that name. Disambig pages are encouraged far more than giving worse names. So what if it was at Sailor Moon (character)? Like I said, we should change it solely because Wikipedia wasn't created so that writers can have articles their very own. You have never once provided a reason why Makoto Kino is good for the readers, and I have provided many a reason why it isn't.
3. Lesser fan is someone who doesn't care about the Japanese name and just watches the show.
4. No, you didn't. You've never actually shown that Makoto Kino as the title is beneficial to the reader.
5. How? It goes against a well-respected guideline. Name one problem that'll come from having three Sailor Moon articles that hasn't come from having two. Under your logic, the Dragon Ball project should have erupted in flames, since there are four articles with Dragon Ball in the title.
6. Okay, so tell me - what is harmed by catering to Wikipedian readers rather than editors? - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Using the term "lesser fan" implies to me that you think we're being snobby. As such, I would like to respectfully request that you modify your language, as using the term "lesser" implies a value (which none of the editors arguing to keep the page where it is has suggested). I wouldn't consider a person who "just watches the show", i.e. a person who hasn't come into contact with the fandom yet, to be a "lesser fan", just maybe a newer fan. There's no shame in being new.

In the academic studies and reviews of Sailor Moon, the characterisation and the ordinary lives of the girls come up again and again as being key to the series' appeal. In the article structure, we first treat the character of the girl, (Profile) and then later on, her soldier persona (Sailor Jupiter, and Special powers and abilities). Given the structure of the article, girl first, then warrior, it is logical for the name of the article to be the name of the girl. Incidently, Superman is a bad example, because there is also an article for Clark Kent. This treatment, splitting the girl and the warrior, I mean, would not be appropriate for the Sailor Team because the general consensus seems to be that it's better to have a decently-sized article than to have two or more stubs.-Malkinann 04:30, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The example is fine. Kal-El is his real name. Clark Kent is his "secret identity", and has an article because there's enough content that there needs to be two articles. - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Link... Your the only who cares. Every one else has been fine with until now... Your the only one fighting on your side. A one man army cannot stand for long.Lego3400: The Sage of Time 05:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

So basically, your argument isn't that Makoto Kino is better for the readers, it's that you don't care about the readers and there are more people who prefer a worse Wikipedia? Stop responding until you can provide a rationale for why the article would lower in quality if it is called Sailor Jupiter. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

In the academic studies and reviews of Sailor Moon, the characterisation and the ordinary lives of the girls come up again and again as being key to the series' appeal. In the article structure, we first treat the character of the girl, (Profile) and then later on, her soldier persona (Sailor Jupiter, and Special powers and abilities). Given the structure of the article, girl first, then warrior, it is logical for the name of the article to be the name of the girl. -Malkinann 07:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

And again, I respond with: The fact that this Japanese name, which is completely unhelpful and only goes to hurt the Wiki, is not the official English name, it's not an English name, and it's not the most well-known name for English-speaking people. Sailor Jupiter is recognizable by everyone, and Makoto Kino is only recognizable to non-Japanese fans and to Japanese-speaking people who know the series. And you have continuously failed to explain WHY Wikipedia is better off catering to those extremely minor groups, and why Sailor Jupiter is unrecognizable to either. Nothing you've said tells me that Sailor Jupiter is not the most well-known name for the character. Superman has one of the deepest plots in comic book history, but does that mean we should go with his true name (Kal-El)? No, we go with that because everyone identifies him as such. Sailor Jupiter is the universal name of the character - everyone knows her as Sailor Jupiter. Only a small group of people on Wikipedia know of her as Makoto Kino, and non-fans will know her as Lita, if they know her at all. What don't you get about "Wikipedia is not designed to suit you?" - A Link to the Past (talk) 08:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The fact that you call it a Japanese name should be a hint in itself :) We're talking about the name of a person here: Makoto Kino. It's like saying Ludwig von Bitcourts would help Wikipedia because the name Ludwig von Beethoven isn't English. Tell me: how would it help Wikipedia if you started using incorrect names like that? Wikipedia is a source of information, and we strive to make it correct information. What good would it do to delude people into thinking that Sailor Jupiter's original name is Lita, rather than Makoto? What purpose would it serve? Superman is called Clark Kent on WP because that's the name he uses throughout the series. With Makoto, this isn't the case (except for the NA version and some versions derived from the NA version). Lastly, please refrain from making ad hominem replies. It's starting to get frustrating and annoying. --Zyppora 11:30, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Um, his article is Superman. There's a very good reason why I used it as an example. Because it is the name that he was so well-known as, he was given that name. Similarly, because Sailor Jupiter is recognizable to all groups - unlike Lita and Makoto Kino. And what are you talking about? I assume that Bitcourts is a literal translation of Beethoven. And Sailor Jupiter isn't a literal translation - it is an official name used by everyone. Makoto Kino is Sailor Jupiter, Lita is Sailor Jupiter. Sailor Jupiter is more identifiable to English Wikipedia readers than Makoto Kino is to them. Until en.wiki decides to cater to anime fanboys and Japanese, Makoto is not a better name to use than Sailor Moon. - A Link to the Past (talk) 11:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you need to sarcastically use the word "Um" at the start of arguments to put people down? ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 12:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, the article you're linking to is about the Superman series and franchise. This article is about Makoto Kino, just like Clark_Kent is about Clark Kent/Superman the person. Sailor Jupiter is an alter ego, and it's been explained quite a few times already why we use an unambiguous name such as Makoto Kino, and that we redirect to it. What you're trying to do now is direct away from the fact that you were so eager to have it renamed to Lita, to having it renamed to Sailor Jupiter. I don't know why you're doing that, but the name Makoto Kino remains. en.wiki isn't the only wiki. The only Wiki that doesn't have this article named Makoto Kino is the it.wiki (for god knows what reason). Lastly, you still haven't answered my question: how would deluding readers by using an incorrect name, such as Lita, help wikipedia? --Zyppora 12:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

This article is about the fictional character. For other uses, see Superman (disambiguation). At the very top of the article. Do you know anything about Superman? Superman is an alien. His real name is Kal-El. The human persona he created is Clark Kent.

And funny - apparently, the one single English name in existence besides Sailor Jupiter to represent the character is incorrect. I guess her English name doesn't exist. But hey, riddle me this - why in the world would using a name that's completely foreign to those without intricate knowledge of the series be helpful? Using a name that is the only one besides Sailor Jupiter to mean anything for the character to English-speaking countries is much much better than what you propose. And regardless, why are you so fixated on Lita? Instead of explaining why it would be against what the reader wants, you're addressing why I switched my stance. - A Link to the Past (talk) 12:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe the central discussion is now at WT:ANIME, and all of us should check in there. While you're here, Link - a question How is my current assessment of the situation falsely stating what your argument is? If you think it's a false statement, then perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Would you mind please explaining it again? -Malkinann 13:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

'We have an English name, and this is Lita (or Sailor Jupiter)'. That's why I'm so fixated on Lita, because you brought it up. And I noticed the disambig page. How does that nullify what I said: that it's a page about the series and franchise? For the character, Clark_Kent still works best afaik. And you want to call 'Makoto Kino' a foreign name? Perhaps you forgot that Sailor Moon is a Japanese production, and the author supports the name Makoto Kino. How could using the English name be preferable over the original name when you have so many other languages, countries and versions? I'm from a non-English country in Europe, so I could consider it an insult towards not only me, my country and the intentions of Wikipedia, but also the authors and publishers of the Sailor Moon series, to say we should abide by the English version. --Zyppora 14:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Superman is a fictional character and comic book superhero, originally created by American writer Jerry Siegel and Canadian artist Joe Shuster and published by DC Comics. Do I need to copy and paste the article for you? Clark Kent is not the article about the character! Clark Kent is a fictional fictional character! Clark Joseph/Jerome Kent,[1] is a fictional character created by Joe Shuster and Jerry Siegel as the civilian secret identity of the superhero Superman. In what universe are these two articles' leads indicative of Clark Kent being about the character, as if Clark Kent is some alien news reporter? I mean for Heavens' sake, you know what makes these debates difficult? Hint: It's when you are not reading what I actually link you to! At the beginning of Superman, it states that the article is about the character. I linked to the character Superman. So guess what? The article is about the character. - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

You don't have to be sarcastic and mean to get your point accross you can make a point with out trying to put people down ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 17:47, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, yes I do. No one will listen when I tell them that Clark Kent is not Superman's true identity, and he won't read the very FIRST line in the article when I copy/past it into here. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

You have to be sarcastic and mean?? Holy crap. --Masamage ♫ 20:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I have to be sarcastic and mean when you are being belligerent and ignoring everything I say. I don't provide respect to those who cannot give any back. You're just trying to be difficult and block the logical move. Everyone knows that she's known as Sailor Jupiter, so how much confusion? None? I see. And only one group - a group which is a small one on this Wiki - knows her as Makoto Kino. Everyone who knows her as Lita knows her as Sailor Jupiter. Everyone who knows her as Makoto Kino knows her as Sailor Jupiter. Everyone knows that she's known as Sailor Jupiter. So no one is confused. Call her Lita, the other side is confused. Call her Makoto Kino, the other side is confused. Why is the one name that has no flaws the wrong name? - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

You know, I for one am strongly considering it. The rest of these people are just mad at you for being so hostile. We'll think about it. We'll talk about it. You've done your job. Now go alienate somebody else. --Masamage ♫ 21:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Well after you've had to deal with several users who flat out ignore every single point and refuse to answer a questio nthat would end the argument, rather choosing to extend it unnecessarily, you'd probably be as irate as I am right now. I don't give in just because some users don't like to lose. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

That's great. We'll talk about it. Congratulations. --Masamage ♫ 21:23, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Too bad most of WP:ANIME doesn't think much of naming conventions (use English). - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, everybody, knock this off. Go talk about it at the anime page. --Masamage ♫ 18:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)