Talk:Scandinavia

The Scandinavian countries

The web-site wrongly states that Scandinavia consists of 3 countries: Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Scandinavia gets its name from the Scandic mountains running at the border between Norway and Sweden reaching Finland up north in Lapland. Scandinavia: Norway, Sweden and Finland. Denmark is one of the Nordic countries (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Iceland), but not a Scaninavian country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:3AC0:E400:D0BF:E3BB:F182:B49E (talk) 14:46, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually, it is the mountain range that got the name from Scandinavia, not the other way around. Most likely the term Scandinavia is derived from Scania — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.254.58.190 (talk) 10:54, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Scandinavia has various meanings in English, which, hopefully the article makes clear - those meanings are not necessarily the same as the 'local' or 'original' meanings - much as 'Balkan' has a number of uses distinct from the original meaning.Pincrete (talk) 17:42, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Britannica says the same as us: "Scandinavia, historically Scandia, part of northern Europe, generally held to consist of the two countries of the Scandinavian Peninsula, Norway and Sweden, with the addition of Denmark. Some authorities argue for the inclusion of Finland on geologic and economic grounds and of Iceland and the Faroe Islands on the grounds that their inhabitants speak North Germanic (or Scandinavian) languages related to those of Norway and Sweden."[1] --Chuka Chief (talk) 18:35, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Not it's not, you confuse the Scandinavian Peninsula with the cultural region knowns as Scandinavia. You do know that the name "Europe" for instance do apply the British Isles, despite them not geographically being a part of the European continent? It's not that straight forward - easy, but also false of you base your whole argument on geography. 81.161.157.240 (talk) 20:04, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Locals shall always have the right to define the term they wish used of themselves. Especially in a global age. People in the Nordics use the term for a reason, and frankly for a Finn to be called Scandinavian is offensive and ignorant. English speakers can do better! Bjananas (talk) 13:58, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Bjananas, the article records, but does not adhere to local use. There are countless examples around the world of such variations. Are you sure that you use the word 'Balkan' in strict adherence to local use? How about 'British Isles'? We are not here to tell English speakers how they OUGHT TO use a term? Recording how locals use it is useful info though. Where exactly would we stop? Deutschland rather than Germany? Firenze rather than Florence? Where? Pincrete (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Pincrete The point is that if the locals problematize the use of a certain term, then others ought to listen, learn and adapt. As English is a lingua franca, the language stands to an even higher standard than the rest. Bjananas (talk) 17:42, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Pincrete In what major literature is Finland and Iceland included in Scandinavia? I have never ever seen that in Scandinavian literature. Is it possible to stress that including Finland and Iceland is really unusual, by removing them from the infoboxes or using other fonts, parentheses or or similar? Tomastvivlaren (talk) 22:33, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Tomastvivlaren, in pretty much all English dictionaries and encyc's, the broader English usages are noted. We cite OED in the article. Not in 'local' use of course, which we record. The best analogy I have ever come up with is the word 'Balkan', which has a fairly precise local use, and a much looser use elsewhere. Also, calling Ireland part of the "British Isles" is anathema to most Irish, but is commonplace in geographical - especially geological and metereological - usage. Pincrete (talk) 08:48, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Tomastvivlaren, sorry but this is really getting a bit tiresome after more than years of repeating the same argument. On English Wikipedia, we follow English usage. What we may have seen in Swedish literature, or Turkish literature, or Burmese literature is all irrelevant. Om jag hade en krona för varje gång någon dykt upp med uppfattningen att den svenska definitionen är "den rätta" och andra definitioner behöver "korrigeras" så att de motsvarar den svenska... Det fungerar inte så. Jeppiz (talk) 00:33, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

@Pincrete and Jeppiz: Ok you are right, the English definition should be the main one, but why not mention both views? Is it totally uninteresting that the definition differs between researchers and authorities from different countries? Showing several POV:s is the usual Wikipedia way of dealing with surprised readers and avoiding edit conflicts. Tomastvivlaren (talk) 22:51, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

@Tomastvivlaren: Not quite sure I understand. Our local usage is already covered in detail in the article, making it clear what we mean by 'Skandinavien'. Jeppiz (talk) 01:16, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I made an attempt to fix the problem.Tomastvivlaren (talk) 18:35, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Ahem

Iceland and Finland is NOT Scandinavia! Norway, Sweden and Denmark are! 78.156.8.155 (talk) 07:22, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Here we go again! --Surfo (talk) 09:46, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Ahem2

Why are you making fun of people telling you the truth?! I'm from Norway and Norway is, together with Sweden and Denmark SCANDINAVIA! The Nordic countries are SCANDINAVIA + Iceland and Finland! So edit it NOW or be deleted and thrown out! 78.156.8.155 (talk) 16:32, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

As will be clear from reading the article, and from reading the archives here, there are plenty of reliable sources in English calling all five Nordic countries Scandinavia, just as there are plenty on reliable sources in English defining Scandinavia as just Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. It is exactly because English usage is somewhat inconsistent that the article reflects this situation. Keep in mind that English usage is the only usage that matter on English Wikipedia, so our own definitions in Scandinavian languages (Swedish in my case) really don't matter. Jeppiz (talk) 17:00, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

If the usage is wrong, it’s wrong. In most of Europe, the usage of England and English is synonymous to Britain and British. That doesn’t make it correct. Much in the same way when someone is referring to an US citizen use the term “American”

So it really doesn’t matter if the usage in English often refer to the Nordic countries as “Scandinavia” 87.53.91.170 (talk) 20:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. And to correct you: it matters a lot to Wikipedia what English usage is. Jeppiz (talk) 23:56, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

In most of Europe, the usage of England and English is synonymous to Britain and British. That doesn’t make it correct. That's also fairly common among Americans - but I'm fairly certain that 'European' and US dictionaries don't say English = British. This makes the difference between established usage and common mistake. Many languages adapt or misappropriate 'foreign' words. Pincrete (talk) 07:13, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Ahem3

So you mean that only english people is worth anyhing? You are reportert! 78.156.8.155 (talk) 17:29, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

No, we mean that English-speaking people get to decide what words mean and how they are used in English. Just as French/German/Danish/Swedish etc people get to decide what words mean in THEIR OWN languages and most alter and sometimes mis-appropriate some words. I'd bet any sum you like that you 'misuse' Greek words on a daily basis - including the word 'Greek' itself - which is an invention by other nationalities. Pincrete (talk) 18:06, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

"most commonly"?

The first paragraph currently states that in English usage, Scandinavia is "most commonly" used to refer to Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. This would seem to be WP:OR, or do we have a source with frequency analysis? Please note, I'm not making a comment on what Scandinavia is (we've done that to death for over a decade on this talk page), merely on whether we can state what usage is "most common". Jeppiz (talk) 10:18, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

The source used in the opening sentence (Oxford Dictionaries) says "A cultural region consisting of the countries of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark and sometimes also of Iceland, Finland, and the Faroe Islands." "Sometimes also" meaning it is less common to include the last three, that's how I'm interpreting that at least. TylerBurden (talk) 11:41, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but that seems to be to use a source related to accuracy to make a claim about frequency, wouldn't you agree? I'm sure we both agree with the definition of Oxford Dictionaries, but my impression is that the wider usage is every bit as common. Obviously my impression is not something to include (would be wildly WP:OR) but it would probably be better to use the wording of the source rather than to make unsupported claims about frequency. It's a small detail, with no real change in how readers will read, but just to make sure we represent sources accurately. Jeppiz (talk) 15:47, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind if it was changed to reflect the source more specifically, feel free to edit it. TylerBurden (talk) 11:06, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't see a problem - the majority of English dicts and encycs and similar, use the 'English' definition, ie "most commonly"= most Eng sources. In one sense it is superfluous since obviously the definition used on Eng WP will be that ordinarily used in English. The phrasing exists to allow for the secondary point of information, that there is a 'stricter' definition used in the region and by some Eng sources. I think it is informative to say - as we do - that English speakers have 'got it wrong' somewhat. I think this is an instance where WP:IAR applies in the interests of clarity. I don't see a problem but am open to other phrasing which is equally clear and informative.Pincrete (talk) 04:57, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Pincrete, I pretty much agree with all you say. The pedant in me needs to point out that it's not that English speakers 'got it wrong' but rather that (in English), "we" often get it wrong ;-) This is far from the only example of different languages using the same name for at least partially different regions. Many languages use Asia for the entire continent though the original 'correct' usage is restricted to Anatolia. In Swedish, we use Storbritannien to refer to the 'United Kingdom', and that usage is also 'wrong' in that 'Great Britain' is the main island of the United Kingdom, not the country. Numerous other examples abound. I mention this as, throughout the years, I've seen so often the discussion circle around 'English usage is wrong', when it should be 'English usage is somewhat different to ours' (common usage, that is; as the article makes clear, English encyclopaedias do tend to favour a definition more or less identical to our (Swedish) understanding of the word. Jeppiz (talk) 20:18, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

'got it wrong' was in quotes. My recollection of the RfC which brought me to this article in the first place (a few years back) is that practically all English dicts and encycs used the looser - English - definition, whilst acknowledging both usages. Pincrete (talk) 04:42, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Scandinavia and Nordic is NOT interchangeable or a synonym

I would change this myself but there are so many references in the article that I don’t know which I can delete. Me personally I would delete them All because they are referencing something incorrect. I feel like this page could be more accurate. Not sure why Iceland and Finland are mentioned as Scandinavian when they are not. Altogether super confusing. :( who made those edits? There is a lot that could be improved which is a shame. https://www.tripsavvy.com/difference-between-scandinavian-and-nordic-1626695 Bigbotnot2 (talk) 16:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that there were too many refs in the section Scandinavia#Use of Nordic countries vs. Scandinavia, and I already removed some. By far the best reference currently in the article is Knut Helle's Introduction of the Cambridge History of Scandinavia, Vol.1. It gives a very thorough discussion about the term Scandinavia. Here's the part comparing it with the term 'Nordic'/'Norden':

The term Norden has not so far taken root in English. The tendency has rather been to expand the concept of Scandinavia to include all the communities which conceive of themselves as ‘Nordic’. This has been helped by the fact that these communities, notwithstanding their internal differences, show a common geographical, historical and socio-cultural distinctness from the rest of Europe. [...] The Scandinavia of this title [of the book series], then, stands for what the Scandinavians themselves call Norden/Pohjola/Norðurlond. In the following historical representation the terms Scandinavia and Scandinavian will be used in this wide sense. We find it convenient to use the adjectives ‘Scandinavian’ and ‘Nordic’ more or less synonymously [...]

Its not wrong, its just different from how the Nordic people themselves use the term. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 17:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah as a nordic and scandinavian person I found this incorrect from common usage. Could be perhaps noted somewhere as online I see a lot of confusion? Maybe it could be mentioned how Scandinavians and Nordics do it because I know some Icelandic people who don't want to be called Scandinavia and feel pretty strongly about it. Which is understandable knowing the history. I feel, although it may not be factually correct, it is what is taught in those regions and by the people. And to be honest a lot of things are maybe factually incorrect in everyday life but we still use it anyway. I did notice you did change so so thank you for that, it is already looking better :) Bigbotnot2 (talk) 17:52, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

"Local" usage is already included in the article in the use of Nordic countries vs Scandinavia section. TylerBurden (talk) 20:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I have reread the page and it doesn’t not specify it. It’s probably there but I cannot see it would you mind showing me which part?

also I am a little confused what this is about “Usage in English is different from usage in the Scandinavian languages themselves (which use Scandinavia in the narrow meaning), and by the fact that the question of whether a country belongs to Scandinavia is politicised.”

Am I able to get a little clarification? What does it mean by narrow meaning? Scandinavians and Nordics alike all agree on who is in Scandinavia and who is in the Nordics. It’s the rest of the world that disagrees. Bigbotnot2 (talk) 21:21, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

This is the part: The term Scandinavia (sometimes specified in English as Continental Scandinavia or mainland Scandinavia) is ordinarily used locally for Denmark, Norway and Sweden as a subset of the Nordic countries (known in Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish as Norden; Finnish: Pohjoismaat, Icelandic: Norðurlöndin, Faroese: Norðurlond). I already did some work in the article, but will try to fix the rest of that section later today. I'll probably base my edits on the book Contesting Nordicness: From Scandinavianism to the Nordic Brand. (https://library.oapen.org/handle/20.500.12657/52267) Jähmefyysikko (talk) 09:02, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Scandinavian

In the section Different meanings of the term Scandinavian (permalink) there's the following text:

In the ethnic or cultural sense the term Scandinavian traditionally refers to speakers of Scandinavian languages, who are mainly descendants of the peoples historically known as Norsemen, but also to some extent of immigrants and others who have been assimilated into that culture and language. In this sense the term refers primarily to native Danes, Norwegians and Swedes as well as descendants of Scandinavian settlers such as the Icelanders and the Faroese. The term is also used in this ethnic sense, to refer to the modern descendants of the Norse, in studies of linguistics and culture.^{[ WP:REFBOMB ]}

The references give examples of usage, but do not actually discuss the term at any length. There's nothing about immigrants and assimilation. This seems like original research. The next paragraph is bit similar, giving a commentary about short dictionary definitions.

Then there's a paragraph about Sami peoples, specifically about the term 'Scandinavian' being applied to them. I skimmed the first reference, and found no discussion at all about the term 'Scandinavian'. The second reference I cannot fully access, but I suspect the same is true there. At least the snippets in Google Books don't give relevant results for 'Scandinavian'.

To me it seems better to discuss Scandinavia and Scandinavian simultaneously, without devoting a separate section for the adjective. Especially if the section is difficult to source. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 14:45, 15 June 2024 (UTC)