Talk:Seniors United Party of Australia

Party registration and Fred Nile

I recently added the party's deregistration to this page but this was reverted due to the editor's belief that Fred Nile is a member of the party. I'll note that his Parliamentary page lists him as an independent and the party has not been registered with the NSWEC. Even if he was a rank-and-file member (as opposed to a Parliamentary member), his membership does not indicate that the party is still registered. DilatoryRevolution (talk) 22:58, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

It's a bit of an odd situation and I'm struggling to think of another historical example like it - that is, where an MP claims membership of a party, the party claims him as a member, but the MP is formally recognised as an independent and there's been no word about party registration. I don't think it's accurate to use past tense for the party when they publicly have, even in an unofficial context, an MP: they clearly still exist as an organisation on some level. (This would not be a first: there have been a couple of parties that have lost registration and kept running lower house candidates as party-branded independents.)

I also think the actual wording ("SUPA was itself deregistered less than two months later.[4]") is really misleading, because federal registration is functionally irrelevant to the continued existence of a party in state politics; it implies a link of any significance between the two. The relevant registration there would be the state registration (which seems to have lapsed after the 2019 election); but again, in a situation where the party, at least in a public presence, has an MP I think it's a bit silly to claim that they actually no longer exist (as opposed to no longer being registered). We can acknowledge the deregistrations and the peculiar situation as to the ongoing state of the party. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:49, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Nile claimed membership in the party several months ago but he is not listed on the party's website and I can find no source in which the party claims him as a member. While this is only my opinion, I believe that Nile probably spoke before anything was settled.

I accept that the wording I used could be construed as misleading regarding the relevance of federal registration to state politics but the AEC was the only official registration the party had so I believe that it is relevant. I am happy to add a sentence explaining that this relates only to its federal representation.

I accept that there may continuing operations for the organisation that was formerly registered as a political party but I don't believe we should state that it continues to exist as a political party. We are unlikely to get an accurate source when an unregistered party ceases to exist as an organisation. One example would be Unity Party (Australia), which was deregistered long ago and as such is considered a defunct party. We require no source to confirm that there is no unregistered organisation continuing the work of the party. If the party is reregistered, we can state that it is an active party then.--DilatoryRevolution (talk) 00:11, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

But Nile claims, as of today, to be a member - his social media is at "Rev Hon Fred Nile MLC - Seniors United Party Australia". It doesn't make sense that there can be a current MP stating membership of a party that according to Wikipedia, no longer exists in any form. We also have no source for Nile and the party parting ways or his no longer being involved - the key assertion that explains this away in your response above is, as you say, an opinion. It isn't uncommon for microparties to lose registration after an election and then re-register in time for the next one (indeed, Seniors United has lost and regained registration once before), and while in most cases we'd change the article after a registration loss anyway (because there's usually no evidence of continued activity) this seems like a weird thing to do given Nile's ongoing role. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:52, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

You state that he claims, as of today, to be a member. His Twitter states he leads the (defunct) CDP. His Facebook changed from frednilesupa to fnileindp ("indep" presumably being short for "independent"). His Cover Photo still says "Christan Democratic Party". Facebook limits how often one can change one's name on there so he is probably unable to change it. Can you find a source that says that he has been an active member since Federal deregistration?

I understand that it is common for microparties to lose and regain registration but they should not be considered an active party during this time. The Democrats and the United Australia Party (2013) articles both went through periods of this. It is okay to change it back if they re-register but misleading to consider them an active party when they are not recognised as such. The Christian Democrats (of which Nile's Facebook cover photo implies his continued membership) could re-register but until that happens, they are listed as a defunct party--DilatoryRevolution (talk) 09:46, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

The Twitter page hasn't been updated since 2017 so is meaningless in this discussion, given that Nile has publicly renounced them/declared the CDP dead in unambiguously reliable sources very recently. Is there any way to verify the supposed Facebook URL change? He endorsed the Seniors United Senate ticket in May and the supposed URL change would be the only even vague suggestion that he's disassociated himself from the party.

The problem is that it just doesn't make sense for a party to have a current MP and for us to simultaneously claim that they currently no longer exist, and your arguments that that isn't the case flatly contradict coverage of the issue in reliable sources. If you can find any evidence at all that Nile has left Seniors United (even if it's not up to Wikipedia citation standards), I'll drop the objection to using past-tense because I'd rather Wikipedia be right; if not, the basis for dismissing what reliable sources have to say about Nile's party affiliation as being outdated is pure speculation. (It appears that NSW law does not permit an MP to bypass membership requirements in registering a party in the same way that federal law does; so given Nile being a party MP couldn't get the party re-registered outside of the usual process the parliamentary website doesn't shed any light.)

The Democrats example is relevant to some extent as a similarly thorny situation (even though they didn't have an MP) - our article fluctuated several times between past-tense and present-tense as editors tried to grapple with how to describe the continuing party organisation during that period, though there the issue was less that there was an existent, unregistered party organisation (given that there were abundant sources for that fact) and more as to whether the lingering group could still be said to be the original Democrats. (The UAP example is not relevant at all as there was no evidence of any continued activity between deregistration and relaunch.) The Drover's Wife (talk) 12:28, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Let's review what sources there are in support of each one:

• Fred Nile as an Independent:
  • The official NSW Parliament website specifically stating that he is an independent
  • The official NSWEC register of parties not including SUPA
  • Fred Nile's own Facebook URL

• Seniors United as a party that existed prior to its federal deregistation:
  • The SUPA website, which hasn't been updated since the May deregistration, makes no mention of Fred Nile and displays federal candidates
  • Fred Nile's Facebook pagename, which he is probably unable to change
  • A series of articles (one from the Guardian, one from so-called "Eternity News") based on Nile's declaration of his intentions from before the federal party was deregistered. I have found no articles from post-dergistration. Nile also declared his intentions to form "Christ in Government (Fred Nile Alliance)" and no articles were produced stating that he was no longer a member of that unregistered organisation.

Wikipedia cannot simply not mention the fact that this party has been deregistered. You have not presented an article that displays this fact. I have presented two versions of such an article that have been reverted to the out-of-date version of the article. If you do not like my work, you could at least produce an alternative rather than keep reverting to versions that are no longer accurate. DilatoryRevolution (talk) 02:32, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Is the only issue that you have with this version of the page that it uses the past-tense "was" instead of the present-tense "is" in the opening sentence? Do you have any other concerns? --DilatoryRevolution (talk) 03:29, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

As I said, NSW does not have the federal loophole that allows MPs to skip the membership requirement for party registration, so him being marked as an "independent" when they haven't regained party registration through the usual process is what you'd normally expect in that situation. The intention to form "Christ in Government (Fred Nile Alliance)" predated the reliable sources indicating that he'd joined the Seniors United Party instead, so that's moot too. I'm not for a moment challenging mentioning that they lost party registration; I'm challenging the speculative claim that they don't have a current MP, which contradicts reliable sources, and flowing from that, that it's reasonable to claim that they no longer exist as a party/listing them as a "defunct party". If you want to simply note the deregistration, without the editorialising in the last paragraph of your version, then that's completely uncontentious; equally, if you have any sources for your claim that Nile has left the party (none of the above actually supporting that claim), I'm all ears. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:02, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

No version of the article that I have edited has stated that they don't have a current MP. In fact, you will note that both versions that I produced showed them to have one legislative council member. This is giving SUPA more credit than it is worth. The versions have both stated that it was deregistered, which is true. As I have said, is your only gripe just my use of the past-tense "was" rather than the present-tense "is"? Please suggest an alternative that you do not categorise as "editorialising" rather than just reverting all my edits. DilatoryRevolution (talk) 06:22, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I have spoken with the office of Nile and they have stated that he is an independent and is intending to contest the next election as such. SUPA do not have an active MP in the NSW Parliament.DilatoryRevolution (talk) 07:05, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Look, if it were from just about any other editor that'd settle it, but I can't say I'm inclined to trust unsourced claims from someone who literally tried to suggest that not having received a response to a talk page post in three minutes was an outrageously long time and an indication that the other person planned on ignoring the discussion. You've got form on playing fast and loose with facts. I'll repeat what I said above in terms of changes: If you want to simply note the deregistration, without the editorialising in the last paragraph of your version [to the effect that the party is defunct], then that's completely uncontentious; equally, if you have any sources for your claim that Nile has left the party (none of the above actually supporting that claim), I'm all ears. Incidentally, we now have a very similar - and even more bizarre - situation with the UAP, but hopefully the higher media interest will make that one easier to resolve. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:37, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

You want to make this personal? Really? I never said that "three minutes was an outrageously long time and an indication that the other person planned on ignoring the discussion." You are putting words in my mouth and I do not appreciate that. Thanks for the character assessment on "playing fast and loose with facts." Let's try to focus on the topic and steer clear of ad hominems, please.

I encourage you to call Rev. Nile's office yourself to verify what they told me: +612 9230 2478. The UAP situation is different but let's not get into that.

While we are on the subject of repeating, I'll do the same. Please suggest an alternative that you do not categorise as "editorialising". I fail to see how a rational person could categorise listing events in the order that they happened as editorialising but please, please, pleaase suggest an alternative that satisfies your personal requirements. I am sure that you are already aware that the "edit" button is just as accessible as the "undo" button.--DilatoryRevolution (talk) 07:05, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

We now have sources in the press such as the SMH that are directly referring to Rev. Nile as an independent. Do we now have consensus that we can change the tense in the article to past (ie. Seniors United Party of Australia (SUPA) was an Australian political party.)? -DilatoryRevolution (talk) 23:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)