Talk:Serov Instructions

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Date

the order could not have been issued in 1939 for a simple reason, there was no People's Commissariat for State Security in 1939 and Ivan Serov was in Ukraine. `'mikka (t) 06:25, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have also found a reference for order # 001158 by June 27, 1941, which matches numbering and time frame. Need more research. `'mikka (t) 06:48, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The 1939 date seems to come from the These Names Accuse published in 1951. Looking more... `'mikka (t) 06:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As of now, there is no traces in 'net of new refs to this arreneously dated document. Still looking. `'mikka 02:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that the document was signed by Serov, the Deputy People's Commissar of State Security of the USSR, who, at the time, worked in the People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs, or NKVD. This would explain why the order was called an NKVD order: [1]. Only when there was an active war going on was NKGB made a separate commissariat. Digwuren 10:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My point exactly: there was no NKGB in 1939. `'mikka 16:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Valge Raamat, a report by the National Committee of Investigating Occupations' Repressive Politics, mentions misdating of the Serov's document on page 13. It does not appear to elaborate, but may give you some sort of lead. Digwuren 18:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I put in the order date from These Names Accuse. (Also, reference tag was missing so weren't getting the ref.) — Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You fail to read my text above. The year of 1939 does not match the sequence of numbering of the orders. The orders with close nmbers are dated by 1941. Serov was in 1939 in NKGB of Ukraine. It is a dating error. I cannot put these facts into an article: this would be original research, but you cannot state the date as an indisputable fact either. `'mikka 15:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that 'dating error' necessarily mean the date is wrong. It could mean the number was issued out of order by mistake, instead.

This kind of mistake would cost the clerk dearly, colleague. I'd rather assume some irregular rules of numbering. `'mikka 16:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But you're right, without a source explaining the discrepancy, all we can do is Original Speculation. Digwuren 15:45, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am fine with the "alleged" on the date for now. I do have multiple sources which state the stated date (one day after Lithuania signed its Pact of Mutual Assistance). I'm away from home and will check other materials/follow up when I return. — Pēters J. Vecrumba 17:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have a reference for dating the document to 1941, I will update the article. — Pēters J. Vecrumba 17:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is an order alleged to pre-date 1941 which references it, so more work... — Pēters J. Vecrumba 17:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I made the date issue its own section. I did also find references to the date in discussions by EU parliament members. I'll still do the additional follow-up. — Pēters J. Vecrumba 17:43, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I re-read the section of Valge Raamat, this time with some coffee. I think it's saying that in 1939, the deportation orders were prepared for a number of countries, including Poland and Romania, and if I read it correctly, that the order for Baltic countries -- 001223 -- was mistakenly dated to fit in with the rest. Digwuren 07:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have written to the museum to try and get a more specific answer there as well. If I don't make headway with the museum, I do have some contacts at the Latvian Academy of Sciences. — Pēters J. Vecrumba 15:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also filled in the citation for allegedly earlier documents referencing the order. — Pēters J. Vecrumba 15:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also mentioned (by content) on www.lithuaniangenealogy.org coinciding with October/November 1940. — Pēters J. Vecrumba 15:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

from added ref.: "Order of the People's Commissar of NKVD of USSR No. 001223 referring to a report on the anti-Soviet element" -- I believe I've seen 1939 docs about registration of "anti-Soviet elements". I will try do find. `'mikka 16:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Antisoviet elements" were detailed in NKVD Order No. 00447 of 1937. - Altenmann >t 18:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think I solved the puzzle. Order 001223 had nothing to do with the Serov Instructions. From my understanding, Order 001223 was an update of list of "Anti-Soviet elements" after Poland was invaded -- the new "elements" included various Polish refugees, military personnel, member of Polish organizations, etc. Renata (talk) 20:40, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]