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Main picture[edit]

To my eye the image File:Homerton College - Shepherd's pie (cropped).jpg, currently relegated to the depths of the article, gives much the best idea of what a shepherd's pie looks like on the plate (despite the mercilessly overcooked peas), and unless anyone objects I'd like to make it the lead picture. Comments most cordially invited. Tim riley talk 20:30, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the absence of comment, now done. Tim riley talk 08:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

meat pie[edit]

Unproductively going around in circles and ignoring numerous reliable sources isn't going to being about changes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

why is this described as being a meat pie? its called shepherds pie because it looks like one. not because it literally is one. its a bit like how we brits say fools gold. to mean a mineral that looks like gold. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:5AD0:8F01:5405:17D9:C87:DACC (talk • contribs) 17:06, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It was kind of User:PriusGod to rescue this contribution from the 2009 additions, above, where it was mistakenly added; unfortunately neither PriusGod nor any of the rest of us can convert the contribution so far as literacy, punctuation, respect for Wikipedia's rules, or, frankly, common sense are concerned. Tim riley talk 17:41, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
An IP (now reverted) removed the description "meat pie" from the info-box, on the grounds that two dictionaries, Collins and Cambridge, mention a pastry crust in their definitions of "pie". The Oxford English Dictionary defines "pie" as "A baked dish of fruit, meat, fish, or vegetables, covered with pastry (or a similar substance)" and The Oxford Companion to Food says "Early pies had pastry tops; but modern pies may have a topping of something else (e.g. the mashed potato topping of shepherds pie or cottage pie or even be topless (as in the USA)". We can safely take it that a shepherd's pie is a pie. Tim riley talk 07:26, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It does not fit the definition of pie from two independent sources, Collins and Cambridge, which are consistent in stating that a pie requires a pastry covering. Two non-independent sources, both from Oxford, give conflicting definitions of what a pie is, one stating that it only requires any sort of covering and one stating that none is required. So no, we can't safely take that it's a pie based on two definitions from the same organisation that don't even agree with each other.
Also, under the Oxford English Dictionary Definition provided, a lasagna would be a pie.
Really you're just picking the facts you want and ignoring logic. It's not a pie, it's a casserole (see Britannica's definition).
Did you know soy milk and almond milk aren't actually milk? Same principle. 110.175.36.64 (talk) 10:44, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It fits the definition from several other sources. Just because two are narrower than others doesn't mean we slavishly follow them and ignore the others. You may want to look at the OED's definition of a shepherd's pie, which describes it as "A pie consisting of chopped meat and potatoes, covered with a crust of mashed potatoes browned". - SchroCat (talk) 10:54, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The authors of our Wikipedia article on pie are on to this: "Shortcrust pastry is a typical kind of pastry used for pie crusts, but many things can be used, including baking powder biscuits, mashed potatoes, and crumbs." Correct in every particular. Tim riley talk 14:37, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
'Just because two are narrower than others doesn't mean we slavishly follow them and ignore the others' - This is called a strawman argument.
1. My original edit listed two sources because I did not think it reasonable to list all other sources saying the same (there are multiple). Merriam-Webster and Britannica also say pastry is required, and I could keep on finding more.
2. I said that your comment that we can conclude that it is a pie based on the four sources (two consistent definitions that exclude it and two inconsistent definitions that include it) was incorrect.
Also
1. A source can't reference itself, i.e. you can't use a Wikipedia article as a source for another Wikipedia article.
2. You're again citing Oxford, a source you already used. This is ONE SOURCE, regardless of how many parts of it you reference. I have provided more sources than you.
3. You've ignored my point about lasagna being pie under the definition you provided. Should we edit its page and mark it as pie?
14.200.200.118 (talk) 01:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merriam-Webster: "Shepherd's Pie: a meat pie with a mashed potato crust".
A Dictionary of Food and Nutrition: "Pie: Food cooked in a dish and covered with pastry; may be sweet or savoury. Also savoury dishes with a crust of mashed potato."
There are multiple definitions that state a Shepherd’s Pie is a pie. There are multiple sources that state a pie can have a potato topping. Please stop vandalising the article. - SchroCat (talk) 04:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So lemon meringue pie is not a pie? Key lime pie] is not a pie? Banoffee pie is not a pie? Duh! See also Larousse Gastronomique (1990 edition): "A pie can also have a mashed potato topping, as in shepherd’s pie or fish pie". I concur with SchroCat: please stop vandalising the article. Tim riley talk 08:14, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep they arent. Many things imitate pies 2A00:23CC:C204:4C01:A6D1:1C0F:C55F:2E4A (talk) 08:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its called shepherds pie as its the kind of imitation pie a shepherd could concoct without using pastry. If someone told me 'go and buy me a pie im hungry' and i came back with shepherds pie they would think I was winding them up/pulling their chain 2A00:23CC:C204:4C01:A6D1:1C0F:C55F:2E4A (talk) 08:57, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thankfully we go by reliable sources, not by personal opinions, and the reliable sources all state that shepherd's pie (and cottage pie), are both classed as pies in numerous sources. - SchroCat (talk) 08:59, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is a work of supererogation to try to convey facts to people who prefer personal prejudice. Facts only confuse such folk. Tim riley talk 10:24, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
every respectable dictionary states that a pie requires pastry. If shepherds pie had a different name it wouldn't be considered a pie at all... 2A00:23CC:C204:4C01:5927:CF79:18E3:80D0 (talk) 11:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Untrue, as the definitions above (from respectable dictionaries) demonstrate. - SchroCat (talk) 11:24, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Grammatical edits[edit]

Why are grammatical edits which improve the Flesh Reading Ease or SMOG being reverted incorrectly? 84.67.233.47 (talk) 19:24, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly because they are illiterate: "rooted in it's history"? Hello? Tim riley talk 19:30, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"rooted in it's history"? should have a question mark before the end quote. 84.67.248.66 (talk) 19:57, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
the original edits by the OP seem to pass ARI better than the latest revision. I suggest reverting these changes.
I do not understand the illiterate: "rooted in it's history"? Hello? 92.40.216.138 (talk) 19:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect because "rooted in it's history" is poor grammar. - SchroCat (talk) 20:01, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's = contraction of "it is" -> It's a shepherd's pie.
Its = belonging to it -> Its shepherd's pie.
Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:14, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hachis Parmentier[edit]

Asked and answered

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

If shepherds pie is unironically a 'pie' as claimed in this article why does the french language article regarding Hachis Parmentier state otherwise? 2A00:23CC:C204:4C01:F3AC:2DD6:2A49:B1C6 (talk) 06:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because they haven’t used the same sources. The sources are clear on the point. It’s not the first time the French have been wrong on something. They are, however, right on their Shepherds Pie article, where they refer to the dish as “d'une tourte à la viande”, or, “a meat pie”. - SchroCat (talk) 06:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)”[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Formerly called Sanders or Saunders[edit]

Is this vandalism? Ive never heard of the term and cant find any sources 2A00:23CC:C204:4C01:F3AC:2DD6:2A49:B1C6 (talk) 06:19, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

see the first paragraph of the body, where it says that was the name originally used in the days of Rundell and Acton. - SchroCat (talk) 06:41, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SchroCat, it might be optimistic to expect a certain type of anonymous editor to read a whole article. Tim riley talk 07:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is it undue to mention an obscure historical name for shepherd's pie in the very first sentence? I restructured the lead to that effect a little earlier today, but Tim reverted it and accused me of making a bad "drive-by" edit. (The concept of drive-by copyediting is a new one on me.) Belbury (talk) 16:50, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For myself I shouldn't choose to put Saunders in the lead, but another editor with a long history of work on the article did so and it did not seem collegiate to interfere. Tim riley talk 16:56, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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