Talk:Soňa Červená/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Jack4576 (talk · contribs) 08:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):
Grammar and spelling great, good prose

b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
Complies with guidelines
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a. (reference section):
facts are accurate

b. (citations to reliable sources):
other editors have checked some sources

c. (OR):
no OR

d. (copyvio and plagiarism):
It is broad in its coverage.
a. (major aspects):

b. (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/fail:

(Criteria marked are unassessed)

Kindly explain what you think is missing, and give me 7 days to make changes, Jack. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:01, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Gerda Arendt, I think for criterion (1) the article could benefit from the 'Life and Career' section being split into multiple sections. Also, I think the article could benefit from the addition of a list table containing each of her performances; so that not every performance is listed in the middle of the prose.

I'd also like some more details about her life and career other than the names of the performances and things that she did. For example, are there any contemporaneous sources of reviews of her work that could be drawn upon, or anything written by a biographer or from contemporaneous interviews?

For criterion (2) I can't assess this as I can't read the languages in the articles linked (may need to ask someone else to help)

For criterion (3) I think the article could benefit from information about her life outside of her performances.

for (4) I'd like to see some more balanced language. for example, the sentence "She was instrumental in promoting Janáček's operas in Czech" is not NPOV, and that positive comment isn't mentioned in the source

for (6) I'd like to see some more images in the article if possible. I wonder if any images about her life could be uploaded to WikiMedia

I'm happy to review this again after a week Jack4576 (talk) 06:13, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for explaining. I have a few problems, in general that I don't speak Czech, and am not a native speaker of English, and regarding this article that I had nothing to do with it's creation, just noticed an exciting biography now when she died.

(1) I'll try to structure the bio. What do you suggest to use for headers? I felt that just "East" and "West" would be the easiest to understand, but don't look MoS-compliant. Also "East" would be in the middle of a sentence if not rephrased ;)

(1) I'll not make a list of performances, nor give background to pieces. Not even Jessye Norman has that. The typical opera singer "bio" has which role when and where, and that tells opera lovers enough about the importance of theatres and the voice type and character of certain roles, and the others can look up the opera and theatre articles, if interested. Example: Kabanicha, the heroine's mother-in-law who always tells her son what to do ;) - note to self: use Glyndebourne.

(1) I'll check for reviews, had no time so far.

(3) About her life other than performance, we have much more than usual, compare Grace Bumbry who died the same day. We can only say what the sources say, and some performers want to keep their personal life private.

(4) Perhaps you can help with that sentence: she - a native speaker of Czech - made it possible that Czech operas were heard in Czech more often (within the tendency beginning in the 1970s to play operas in the native language but harder for Czech than let's say French), and thus actually that they were heard more at all, - how can that be said better?

(6) I'll ask GRuban if there are more images available. She was photographed a lot. I don't like the one we have which was modified, and is now too bright for my taste. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:08, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, how can I refuse?

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any free images of her in her early years; Czech and German copyright licenses are both for 70 years after death of author, and the only ones I could find online are from the 1960s, which would still be in copyright. But we actually have quite a few images of her in 2012-2013 in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:So%C5%88a_%C4%8Cerven%C3%A1, a couple of which I brightened a bit, and I found another video from 2017 that I grabbed some screenshots of. Finally, I recropped and reduced the brightness on image that is currently in the infobox. Pick whichever you like. --GRuban (talk) 16:17, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Then there's this one, which we had in that category, and I cropped a bit to focus more on her. It does show her in 1948, which seems like it would be an auto-include, even though she is looking down, however, the copyright is a bit iffy. It's probably free in the Czech Republic, since it's anonymous and 70 years after 1948. However the US has a strange law that it has to have been free in the country of origin by 1996, which it probably wasn't. So it may well not be free in the US, even though it's free in its home country. Since this is a GA candidate, you may want to err on the side of being careful, unfortunately. --GRuban (talk) 16:43, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The gentleman to her right is Vlasta Burian, comedian and football referee!

Thank you so much, GRuban! The one I like best is File:O-naší-současné-naději2013-Soňa-Červená2.jpg because it looks like a stage situation, but it comes without description. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:09, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@GRuban and Gerda Arendt: for the San Francisco section we may have options, if you like them. 1) There are 3 photos in this 1963 article. They were published without a notice[1],[2] that I can see. The 1963 Periodicals catalog shows no entries for the San Francisco Examiner or Hearst Corporation. I also don't find Pete Peters or William L. Stein, the photographers in the Artwork catalog. 2) There are 2 photos (I love the Quickly one) here. I also see no marks[3],[4] or registration in the 1966 Periodicals catalog for Palo Alto Times or Peninsula Newspapers. Photographer is unknown. SusunW (talk) 14:49, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

and how is this from East Berlin, GRuban? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:50, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That page says it's In copyright, Educational use permitted, which isn't good enough for us, I'm afraid. I can't find specific copyright rules for East Germany on Wikimedia Commons, and just the German ones are 70 years after author's death or publication if anonymous, so 2030 for a 1960 photo even if anonymous. However the newspaper photos that User:SusunW found are much more promising, in this case the US laws weirdness may work for us. I'll look at them more thoroughly and will probably upload them in a few days (maybe faster if I get the time today), or someone else can do it faster. --GRuban (talk) 18:53, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

as Mistress Quickly in Falstaff
in favorite roles
with Welsh Corgi "Funny Face"
As "Barber of Seville's" Berta
Hits the High Notes of Hilarity
As "Barber of Seville's" Berta
Headshot

@SusunW and Gerda Arendt: Looks like "a few days" turned out to be 11, sorry about that, real life came up. Hope some of these will still be useful. I didn't categorize the opera images per opera as there seem to be multiple versions of "Barber of Seville", and I couldn't easily tell which this was, possibly Gerda will take one look and "just know". --GRuban (talk) 14:27, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you GRuban. I am with you, I'll let Gerda choose. I just wanted options and until we find others, these seemed to fit the bill. I appreciate you. SusunW (talk) 14:32, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda thanked me for the images but didn't put any in, so I took the liberty of using three of them in what seemed to be the appropriate section of the article. If you disagree, Gerda, please feel free to revert. --GRuban (talk) 13:01, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Okay ! Thanks I'll keep everything you've said in mind when I have another look later

What about similar headers to that in the Jessye Norman article ? Jack4576 (talk) 09:24, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Norman's life was different, easy early - middle - later, - a development. Červená's, however, had these abrupt changes, first Czechoslovakia, then - no longer welcome there - East Berlin and international from there, then - no longer wanting to live in unfree surroundings - Frankfurt and more international from there, - and finally a return to her home country but as an actress. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:05, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

what about breaking up her career with headers by location ? Jack4576 (talk) 10:31, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

but when she was in East Berlin, she was also in Prague and Salzburg, among others, and when she was in Frankfurt, she was also around the Western part of the globe, so how to say that? - she was almost ever limited to one location --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:56, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, maybe if we broke up up with subheadings for pairs of decades ? Jack4576 (talk) 12:56, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's completely arbitrary, sorry. The breaks in her career were when she first sang in East Berlin, and 1962 when she fled the system, and after German reunification which also opened the way to her home country. I just don't know how to word it. Susun, any ideas? I won't have time for the singer today, as the next person died who won't find anybody else but me to update ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:07, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda Arendt, I think you just indicated three possible sections... ;) Update: OK, I enacted a set of section headings. See what you think--and Jack4576, please have a look as well. Drmies (talk) 14:03, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that looks great, thank you Drmies Jack4576 (talk) 14:12, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK Gerda, I'm going to make a few notes here, if that's OK, while I'm looking over the biography for those subheadings.

"Červená learned about her mother's death, and with the help of a pathologist recovered her body to secretly bury her in the family grave in Prague"--can't read the source, or watch the video, but "learned about" is kind of obvious. Isn't the real interest here that it was maybe hidden and at some point (when?) she found out what really happened? When did she, and when was the burial?
- Couple of sources say she was arrested died under murky circumstances while in custody. "Navíc její matka zemřela za nevyjasněných okolností po policejním výslechu.", (in English. The Czech article says a lab tech called Červená 14 days after her mother's death in Pankrác Prison and that officials there said she had committed suicide. It is cited to this book, but no page number is given. I cannot find an open link in Mexico (not unusual) and can't order the whole book from the RX exchange. I don't speak Czech, so it is hard to know what search terms to use. Perhaps filelakeshoe who has helped me on Czech topics before could help? SusunW (talk) 17:57, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm only finding more tabloid sources like the novinky.cz article e.g. [5] which basically repeats what's cited to the self-pub source in the cs.wiki article - that her mother was arrested in 1948, and about 2 weeks later a student of medicine who knew Soňa Červená as a family friend contacted her saying they'd found her mother's body in the pathology lab. I'm pretty sure that's what's meant here by "learned about". – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 21:13, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for trying! I appreciate the effort. SusunW (talk) 21:32, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Červená studied voice"--really needs a date and period, preferable start and finish, date of graduation (if there was one), and when did she begin her career as a performer?
- I can't answer the schooling part, but I found a newspaper article that says she began her career at 18. I'll add. SusunW (talk) 18:49, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, well closer, she began working at 18, saved money for three years and then began taking singing lessons. That's still vague, but clearer and the best I could find in RS at this point. SusunW (talk) 21:32, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I also think that the list of performances, esp. in the paragraph starting "In 1962", makes for difficult reading and editing: I removed a typo in there but it was hard to find in edit mode. Jessye Norman's performances are more separated by prose within paragraphs. I don't know what the best solutions is--for me, it would be to cut a few and to try and intersperse it with prose (reviews, notes, etc.) as was done in the Norman article. Drmies (talk) 14:03, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Working on this. I have found a ton of reviews in newspapers.com and can break up the text, but Gerda, you know I don't know squat about music, so you'll have to review what I write. SusunW (talk) 18:49, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  - Thank you very much, and I will. I'm just busy first with updating another woman. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:09, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've broken up the string of roles and interspersed reviews. If you think we need more, I can likely find them. Do you think we need to try to get reviews from UK performances? I might be able to find some if you think that will help. SusunW (talk) 21:32, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What do you think, Jack4576? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think its looking really good now ! well done. I'll re-rate Jack4576 (talk) 08:02, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]