Talk:Spokane County, Washington

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The WikiProject U.S. Counties standards might help.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ram-Man (talk • contribs) 07:54, May 26, 2006

Library timeline removed

I have just boldly removed the "timeline" section in the Library section. It was very over-detailed, listing hire and fire dates for individual library employees, and was generally unencyclopedic in my view. Moreover it overbalanced the rest of the article, contrary to the WP:UNDUE guideline. DES ^(talk) 23:26, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Older maps/images

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Not sure how useful it might be, but my attention was drawn to some older images of maps/plats of Spokane County. I've uploaded one such image here. It is in the public domain given its age. An excerpted portion was used in the history section of Saltese Flats (formerly Saltese Lake). As a point in time reference it is interesting, but would need some support in article text to avoid simply being decorative. If I upload more in the future I'll add them here for interested editors as a reference. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:51, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Spokane County Flag?

Is the Spokane County Flag, that was added by a user on May of 2023, authentic? I cannot find any reference to it on the Spokane County website or anywhere on the web, except CRWFlags.com and the wikimedia commons. Leif One (talk) 23:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes it is. The local newspaper has plenty on it. Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 05:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Can you share some citations? I’ve been looking through the Spokesman Review website but I haven't been successful in finding any mention of it. JT Ramsey (talk) 07:37, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I have looked around online and at the courthouse and have not been able to find any mention of it. That’s doesn’t mean it’s not legitimate, but I can’t confirm it is. The only online place that mentions it (crwflags.com), even marks Spokane County as “it is reported that there is no known flag.” That website lists their source as: "Welcome to Washington", 2nd edition by Clem Buckley and Jim Bruner (c) 1998 Jim Bruner, Publisher ISBN: 0-9628251-1-5. JT Ramsey (talk) 07:36, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Spokane County adopted a new flag in 1988 from a contest to design it. It was designed by the daughter of state Rep. Gary Bumgarner, Stephanie Bumgarner-Ott. Twenty-five copies of the flag were produced at a cost of $70.07 each. https://www.newspapers.com/article/spokane-chronicle/138386976 (Spokane Chronicle Wed, Oct 19, 1988 page 5)

However, the flag was quickly forgotten until 2002 when it was discovered in a drawer. The previous last know sighting was at the County Courthouse in 1995. The search was prompted because Avista requested a replacement for the flag they over the Post Street generation facility. However, the commissioners decommissioned the flag because they were appalled by it's appearance and they were apprehensive because it may offend Native Americans. A new contest was going to be launched, but there's no record of it ever happening. https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-spokesman-review/138387594 (Spokesman-Review Mon, Apr 8, 2002 page 6) Leif One (talk) 23:05, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

There might be an old Spokane County flag in the Capitol rotunda. The virtual tour shows a flag that might be a match. If anyone is ever in Olympia, please have a look and report back. http://www.xplore.timelooper.com/wsc/ Leif One (talk) 23:08, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

The first appearance of the Spokane County Flag on wikipedia is June 2023. It appears with no citation or proof that it is legitimate. The only citation appears in January 2024 when the authenticity is questioned. See the above cited links about the history of flag. The citations are from Spokane newspapers that get the information from county government sources. The Spokane County commissioners are reported as decommissioning the flag in 1995. I contacted the office of Spokane County and was told Spokane County does not have a flag, only a logo. Unless any evidence can be found that the county flag is official, the prevailing evidence is that Spokane County no longer has an official flag. There is no basis for the flag to have been included in the first place. All evidence that it ever existed has been from research, that research encompasses the fact that it once existed, but no longer exists.

In the Spokesman-Review and Spokane Chronicle issue from April 14, 1988 an article by Lora Olson, states that there is a contest to design a Spokane County flag sponsored by the 'Spirit of '89' Centennial Celebration Committee. The article also reports that Puget Sound Tent and Awning Company agreed to produce, free of charge, a flag for each county. The flags will first be used in an honor guard for the Govenor's Inaugural Ball in 1989. This article has the earliest documentation that I can find concerning a flag for Spokane County. It has swayed me to agree with the user ExcelsiorBanjo, there is no official decree, no official record, only paraphrasing in newspaper articles. Unless there is evidence that Spokane County once officially commissioned a flag, it should not be represented as an historical artifact of Spokane County. -- Leif One

You seem to be ignoring responses made. This does not give the appearance of good faith editing. Anyway, you're outnumbered. There are paths forward for your cause, but I've personally no interest in helping you find them. At the moment, consensus on Wikipedia is that the flag should remain on the page as is. Additionally, at the moment, to anyone concerned with reality, the flag should remain on the page as is. Catch you later. Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 21:36, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what consensus you are talking about. I've provided links, documentation and contacted Spokane County. Officially there is no flag, if there ever was, the racist overtones were concerning. Leif One (talk) 05:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The flag is concerning, and it won't ever be replaced as long as people are pretending it doesn't exist. The consensus is above & in the history of its inclusion on the page. You are the only person out of a multitude who has been for removing it. You are the minority. You are against concensus. The majority of links, above, that you have provided, attest to its existence. The items you have cited to support its non-existence or unofficial status have equivalent later citations that support the opposite. If you want it removed from the page, I suggest you go through the normal channels of trying to make changes that are against consensus, or lobby the county to *officially* nullify or replace this flag. Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 14:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I do not understand how you have concluded there is a consensus or a majority to retain the county flag in question on the Spokane County Wikipedia page. Only one other person has commented besides you and myself. JT Ramsey asked you for citation of its legitimacy. The flag only appeared on the Spokane County pages as of June 2023 and had no justification or citation for its addition to Wikipedia. The flag has only been on the Wikipedia page for 8 or 9 months. It in not a historic artifact. If you feel it should be remembered, it should only be as a footnote. Leif One (talk) 21:49, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

"JT Ramsey asked you for citation of its legitimacy."

Yes, and you provided it for them.

"The flag only appeared on the Spokane County pages as of June 2023"

That's right, someone other than the two of us added it. That is support for inclusion.

"had no justification or citation for its addition to Wikipedia"

It's the county flag, so it doesn't need justification. The first references, again, you personally initially provided.

"you have concluded there is a consensus or a majority"

So as you see, that's two against one at the very least. The uploader & myself against you.

"If you feel it should be remembered, it should only be as a footnote."

Me personally? Personally I think it should be replaced by the county. But that's only going to happen as long as people at the county realize the situation. But what I think personally is somewhat less the issue.

This flag has been and presently is the official flag of the county. It is never going completely away. That's not how history works. It can be replaced as the official flag and there can be a new official replacement flag, and that would be pretty nice. But this flag is part of history, and until being replaced by an official act, is the official county flag. There's nothing anybody can personally directly do about that except official agents of the county. And they haven't done it yet.

Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 21:36, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Wow, you really like molehills huh? I was around Spokane in the 1980's and never heard of it. Presumably you first learned about it when it was posted in June 2023. So 36 years, and NOW it has been posted on Wikipedia, if you do the math it's been posted on Wikipedia for about 1.8% of its existence (less if could only accept that it was disavowed in 1995). I think it deserves about that much attention today, a footnote.

Your logic is broken as well. you are perfectly OK accepting newspapers articles to confirm its authenticity, and you are not OK accepting newspaper articles that say it has been de-commissioned. You can't have it both ways. YOU haven't offered any citation at all, ZERO. You can't even say the uploader of the flag image supports you. That person appears to have an interest in flags and heraldry, that doesn't mean they support or reject it as a symbol of Spokane County.

"This flag has been and presently is the official flag of the county. It is never going completely away. That's not how history works." I asked you to prove it was official, you don't offer anything but an opinion. I couldn't find any evidence that it was official, and I looked. I DID find a County Official quoted by a reporter in a public record that the flag was problematic and de-commissioned. You can't pick which facts you want to believe, find some that support your opinion if you REALLY care about history. You can have a footnote for it, but you can't have an official flag next to the County Seal unless you can find some facts to support that. Leif One (talk) 07:49, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Let's keep this as objective and respectful as possible. I'm going to try to summarize what we know so far with the sources provided:

-October 1988, Spokane Chronicle article describes the newly adopted flag with image (head looking left)

-May 2001, digital replication added (head looking right) to crwflags.com sourcing the book: 'Welecome to Washington' book by Clem Buckley and Jum Bruner (1998). This same website indicates below the flag that "it is reported that there is no known flag."

-April 2002, Spokesman-Review article describes finding the lost flag and states "comissioners have decided to decomission this version" and planned to create a design competition before September 2002.

-June 2023, vector image uploaded to Wikipedia based on the crwflag.com image and added to the Spokane County page.

-March 2024, I called Spokane County and a spokesperson stated 'I have been asked this multiple times. There is no official flag for Spokane County. The only official representation is the County logo.'

I think we can all agree that it does appear to be the flag from at least 1988 to 2002. This is supported by the 1988 Spokane Chronicle article, and the 1998 book which served as the source for the digital replications. A few users have said it is flown in the state capitol, but I have not been able to get ahold of them and the digital tour does not have clear views of any of the flags so I cannot verify this.

I understand that there is only one source of decomissioning the flag, but there is no evidence that it is still the official flag. When I called and asked about a flag, the County denies they have one and stated: 'There is no official flag for Spokane County. The only official representation is the County logo.' They did say they would look into it more and would try to find the record of the vote decomissioning the flag. I have also reached out to the following to try to find newer sources including the Spokesman-Review, Spokane County, the Capitol building, and Kate McCaslin (county comissioner quoted from the 2002 article).

My vote would be to remove the flag unless it can be verified with a citable source by the County to still be the official flag. JT Ramsey (talk) 20:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

There is a flag that generally matches the colors in the northeast corner of the rotunda in the virtual tour of the Capitol building :http://www.xplore.timelooper.com/wsc/

It also (likely same flag) appears to be brought in during the 2017 legislative opening ceremonies as they bring in every flag from every county as seen in the first few minutes of the video: https://tvw.org/video/senate-floor-debate-2017-opening-ceremonies-2017011030/

A media representative from the WA Department of Enterprise services (in charge of the capitol campus) responded saying that this was interesting and they would look into whether or not the flag is there. While this is all very interesting, the flag being present in the capitol doesn't actually make it the current official county flag. I would still recommend removing the flag unless the County states it still is or there is evidence it was never decomissioned. JT Ramsey (talk) 00:39, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

"there is evidence it was never decomissioned"

As I've already linked in the history for Leif, this newspaper excerpt comes after Leif's paraphrased suggestion that it was "decomissioned":

https://img.newspapers.com/img/thumbnail/578418784/400/400/2900_2850_1000_1000.jpg

The contest that was meant to replace the flag never happened. It has never been formally replaced.

I've also already explained that many symbols and flags of Spokane (or anywhere) throughout history have never been officially adopted. A number of flags considered official Spokane flags were not. I'm pretty sure only the last two for the city were adopted by actual government processes. Maybe only the current one.

"I would still recommend removing the flag"

Anyway, this at most gets us to two vs two. Your side can find more people to weigh in if you want, or my side can, but what one of you should really do, if you actually want to continue treating unofficial actions paraphrased in a newspaper as official action, is to use the ordinary, official process on Wikipedia to get more comments in on this matter.

Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 20:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

The newspaper link you cite, https://img.newspapers.com/img/thumbnail/578418784/400/400/2900_2850_1000_1000.jpg , it does not have a date or origin, please cite your sources. Also the "contest" in the thumbnail image excerpt indicates only that "It will take some time to whittle down the pile of logos, and the county won't have a contest to pick a new one." The excerpt is irrelevant to the flag, and they are taking about choosing a logo. The flag is only mentioned to clarify their opposition to it. "The county flag...was declared garish by county officials, and has since been hidden away. "We don't want to go there," said Commissioner Phil Harris." That snippet includes county officials and Commissioner Harris opposing the flag, and since you are keeping score that is at least three opinions opposing the flag.

I asked a group of people that are interested in Spokane History. The group is administered by a local historian, university Professor and Archivist at the Washington State Archives. Here are the results of that Spokane History group.

0 votes - I love it.

30 votes - I hate it.

4 votes - I don't care.

1 vote - It Should represent Spokane County.

5 votes - It should NOT represent Spokane County.

So please add 35 votes opposing the flag, and add Commissioner Harris and county Officials (at least two to be plural, but likely many more) for 3 more opposing votes. That's at least 38, plus the two opposing votes already expressed on this talk page.

The survey has 1 vote in support, so add that to your side.

This amounts to 40 votes opposing the flag. Somehow you think that the original flag poster User:IndysNotHere is in favor of the flag, I don't interpret it as an endorsement. IndysNotHere appears to be a heraldry and flag enthusiast. They have not indicated support or opposition, and none should be inferred. The survey did find that 1 vote favored your viewpoint. So still 40 opposing the flag, 2 in support of the ugly garish flag.

The reality is that Spokane County has expressed it does not like the flag and chooses not to use the flag. They have stated, on different occasions, from different queries, to myself and JT Ramsey that Spokane County does not have a flag, only a logo. Please ask them for yourself. Yes, it happened and yes it did exist. It doesn't need to be wiped from history, but also, the flag is not current and is no longer used by Spokane County.

I have found no evidence that it was ever "officially" adopted, nor has there been any evidence that it was "officially" removed. I acknowledge it was part of history, but it is not a part of Spokane now. Leif One (talk) 22:18, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I see that the article from May 12, 1995, Spokesman-Review had been missed. Here is article describing the flag being found in 1995. https://www.spokesman.com/stories/1995/may/12/hasson-says-county-flag-doesnt-fly-banner/ Leif One (talk) 23:17, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I haven't been following this "debate" at all, but catching up now I can see that there's some clear misunderstandings on how Wikipedia works. Per WP:NOTCENSORED, an offensive flag that was adopted (as evidenced by newspaper accounts from the 1980s and 1990s) can and generally should still be displayed in this article in some form. Per WP:OR, the decision on whether or not it is official must come from outside the project. If the county has a website or document or something publicly available that disavows the flag, then it can be removed from the infobox; even in that scenario, the flag should still be mentioned in prose. SounderBruce 04:14, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@SounderBruce, @Leif One, @Excelsiorsbanjo I've removed it from the infobox, largely per the image talk page discussion on Commons where Leif One states the county decommissioned the flag. Regardless, the WP:ONUS is on those wishing to include it to gain consensus to include it; I see nothing above showing there was ever a consensus for that. —Locke Cole • t • c 18:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Consensus is covered above. Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 06:02, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Not seeing it. —Locke Cole • t • c 06:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, I'll point it out to an op when you're reported for violating consensus if you keep it up. Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 02:58, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Neato. —Locke Cole • t • c 04:14, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@Excelsiorsbanjo Just to be crystal clear here, the flag isn't getting included until you demonstrate a consensus exists for it to be included. Simply engaging in a protracted edit war to try and force the issue isn't going to work out the way you're hoping. —Locke Cole • t • c 04:20, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Consensus already demonstrated, again, as stated already, above, for ordinary inclusion that already took place. It's going to work out exactly as I hope, because the people who resolve issues like these are able to read long discussions and determine consensus. In the meantime I can press the undo button, it's no big deal. Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 14:40, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

What you describe above is not consensus (outnumbered, etc, above). See WP:NOTAVOTE. You also don't get to infer support from actions as you did above (That's right, someone other than the two of us added it. That is support for inclusion.). The person who uploaded it has not participated in this discussion, nor seen the reasons to consider not including the image (such as the source provided that states the flag was decommissioned). To be clear about NOTAVOTE and inferring support, you haven't even held a poll (which is ill-advised anyways) and you've used your claim of numeric support as a bludgeon during the discussion above. if you actually want to continue treating unofficial actions paraphrased in a newspaper as official action That's not actually how sources work here, we try to use secondary sources over primary sources, see WP:SECONDARY (and also consider reading WP:IS). We generally avoid primary sources (see WP:PRIMARY, also part of WP:NOR as SECONDARY was). It's going to work out exactly as I hope It's really, really not. —Locke Cole • t • c 15:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Mmmhmm. Excelsiorsbanjo (talk) 15:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

AN/EW content discussion

Refactored from WP:AN/EW for further consideration, discussion, and to maintain related records together

I figured you'd invoke this old brief. It says "commissioners have decided to decommission that version". That only proves that they, at that time, intended to. It does not prove that they actually held the vote that that language suggests would be necessary, and the fact that no one seems to have yet found a record that such a vote was held means we cannot say with certainty that the flag was decommissioned (especially given that it seems, also, that the promised contest for a new flag design was never held, either). To claim those words as incontrovertible proof that the flag was decommissioned is writing a check they can't possibly cash.

It would be like me saying I had decided to block you for edit warring, but without anything in the block log proving that I did. That could not be taken to mean I had blocked you.

Fully protecting a page is never, repeat never, any reflection or judgement on the rightness or wrongness of the version protected. It is a message to the editors involved that they need to cool this down and discuss as they have failed at maintaining the status quo. Daniel Case (talk) 03:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Daniel Case That only proves that they, at that time, intended to. The text says decided to. It doesn't say intended to, planned to or some variation of that. decided is the simple past and past participle of decide. My understanding is that prior to that flag, the county didn't have any flag whatsoever, so it stands to reason that "no flag" is a possibility. Usually we defer to secondary sources, especially in situations like this where no other sources have been provided to refute the "decommissioned" status. It's kind of baffling to see you wanting something official when we typically avoid official records (just look at how biographies handle birthdates, or how we discourage using press releases for announcements over secondary source coverage of those topics, etc). Regardless, making assumptions about whether they actually decommissioned it or not is original research. You're supplanting what a reliable secondary source says with what you think they meant instead of taking the words plainly. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

An official record of the vote on the commissioners' website or in an offline archive where it is published and cited to the extent that verification is possible would be, contrary to the popular perception reflected in your post, an acceptable source for this as it would not require interpretation. Per WP:PRIMARY: "A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." Unfortunately rulemaking by assumption has led to that being interpreted to bar the use of primary sources altogether, which is an unfortunate misunderstanding.

I do have an idea for how we can resolve this to (I hope) everyone's satisfaction. Some people on the talk page have mentioned getting in touch with the county to see if they can find any records regarding the vote on the flag in their archives. I mean, they should have it if it were voted on ... if you keep no other public records of a body's actions on file this long, you keep meeting minutes. Of course I don't know how long they'd be required to keep them, and given Washington's reputation for having such loophole-ridden sunshine laws, I might not be optimistic.

Now, it's one thing if a bunch of Wikipedia editors ask for this. It's another if the local media does—it would turn up the heat on the people at the archives. Not that I think they'd be delaying on purpose or anything, but knowing how this works I can tell you that when they know the media's making the request (OK, I know, in a sense we are the media, but not like, say, the Spokesman-Review is) it gets a higher priority.

So, we should contact the S-R and suggest this as a story they should assign someone to cover. It wouldn't require many resources on their part (a not-inconsiderable issue given the current besieged state of local newspapers) and I can't imagine any way it could be argued that this would not be a story, especially given the recent effort to redesign the city's flag.

I am willing to reach out to the newspaper myself if desired, given my own distant-past experience in journalism. The end product of all this would be an unimpeachably reliable secondary source on this (and maybe the embarrassed county commissioners hastily voting to decommission the flag if it were found that they hadn't already). And it might make a good Signpost story, too. Daniel Case (talk) 20:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Daniel Case I get the argument around some forms of primary sources, but this is precisely why we use secondary sources: you're debating whether or not the reliable secondary source was accurate in stating the flag was decommissioned. If we had county commissioner minutes stating it was decommissioned, but then someone said it was still in use in Olympia, we'd have people going back and forth about that.

I did start a straw poll on the talk page, debated turning it into an RFC, but if you wish to pursue getting them to state something publicly about it, I'm all for that as well. FWIW, I did some archive.org spelunking on prior versions of spokanecounty.org and it appears they had minutes/agendas but because the current live-site only goes back to 2012-2013, it's really hard to search (at least that I've found so far) to see if maybe this hasn't actually already been publicly stated from a primary source. —Locke Cole • t • c 23:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Daniel CaseThe Spokane County flag is a relic of the past. The documentation of its origin and its abandonment are on the Talk page. The flag was a result of the fervor around the Centennial celebration of the state. Every county in the state designed a flag. Concerning the origin of the flag, of that too there is no legal record. The design contest, statewide, was sponsored by a tent and awning company. To quibble points, the is no legal origin for the flags existence that has been found, as there is no legal source for its decommissioning, only the published article where a county official states it will be decommissioned. The fact that the flag was a part of history is still represented on the Wikipedia page. The recognition does not belong in the infobox, and it is cited further down in a section about the history. I have no objection to the page being locked from editing, but please lock it so that it is not at the top of the page. The County only uses a logo, not a flag, I asked the office personally. The fact that a flag ever existed is an obscure fact that nearly everyone is not aware of. I would estimate that 99.9999% of people do not know the flag ever existed. Please relegate the flag to history, it is not a current symbol of Spokane County. Leif One (talk) 19:39, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not consider one short unsigned newspaper article in which county commissioners promise to decommission the flag and sponsor a contest to create a new one to sufficiently establish that the flag was either a) decommissioned or b) never commissioned. You may want it to, but your emotional pleading here has little to do with policy. Daniel Case (talk) 03:03, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

@Daniel Case and Leif One: "county commissioners promise to decommission the flag" That is, emphatically, not what the article says. It says "commissioners have decided to decommission this version". Please, please, please stop trying to supplant the plain language used in the reliable source with your personal opinion. —Locke Cole • t • c 04:06, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

"Have decided" is not equivalent to "have voted". That would have to be done at a regular meeting, and the fact that this story does not take place in the context of a meeting (trust me; when I was a journalist I wrote a few hundred meeting stories in two states, and this is emphatically not one. It could easily be interpreted as "have decided to hold a vote on".

It's also unclear who told the (unnamed) reporter this ... it seems like they talked to just one of the five commissioners (was that the same number at that time as now?). It cannot be determined how committed the commissioners were to this course of action from that statement, much less this story. Daniel Case (talk) 04:14, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@Daniel Case "Have decided" is not equivalent to "have voted". And yet the flag isn't flown anywhere in Spokane. I wonder why that would be. Could it be because they decided to decommission it? Also, how do you know it's not equivalent to have voted? Have you found sources stating as much or is this more original research? The reporter could have said are deciding or some variation thereof if a decision was still forthcoming. But the reporter used the exact phrase have decided which means the decision was already made. Why do you consider these sources good enough to validate that a flag existed, but not good enough to accept that it was decommissioned? You can't have it both ways here. it seems like they talked to just one of the five commissioners Five commissioners is a recent change, back then it would have been one of the three, assuming that's what happened and the reporter wasn't simply using the most concise way possible to report the news that the flag was rejected.

I'm all for your efforts to get clarification on this (I'll never turn down clearer sources), but the sources we do have (and in the case of the absence of anything post-2002, the sources we don't have) support excluding it from the infobox. —Locke Cole • t • c 15:33, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

• "And yet the flag isn't flown anywhere in Spokane. I wonder why that would be." Maybe because they haven't publicized its existence or promoted its use because they're embarrassed by it? It does not logically follow from the flag's absence from public spaces that it was formally decommissioned. Actual practice does not imply the existence of a corresponding official act authorizing that act. IIRC, "The Star-Spangled Banner" was used as the national anthem for years before Robert L. Ripley pointed out on his radio show during the 1930s that there was no statute to that effect (after which Congress passed one). The county commissioners may just have informally decided that the less they said about it the better. Or that they had other things more important to spend their time on. Without a more detailed source we cannot say (And yes, I have identified the right reporter to contact at the Spokesman and will be doing so later this week, I hope).
• "Also, how do you know it's not equivalent to have voted?" Standard English semantics. See decide ("to cause someone to come to a decision") vs. vote ("To choose or grant by means of a vote, or by general consent."} While a vote always makes a decision, a decision does not always mean a vote was taken. The Venn diagram has "vote" in the small circle entirely within the bigger one labeled "decision".
• "Why do you consider these sources good enough to validate that a flag existed, but not good enough to accept that it was decommissioned?" We have a pretty clear source on the contest being held and the flag being adopted in 1988. We do not have as a clear a source, your protestations notwithstanding, for the flag being decommissioned around 2002. "Have decided" probably indicates to me some consensus on the commissioners' part to hold the vote, as communicated to the reporter (again consistent with my experience covering local and county governments), but then we should have found clearer followup indicating that a vote was taken. Daniel Case (talk) 18:46, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

  We're not going to try and read into what happened beyond the plain language used in the article. You appear to be getting hung up on the dictionary definition of "decide", which is not a word that was used in our source, contrasted against decided which was the word used. It's past tense, as in, a done deal, finished. It's not something about to happen, it's something that happened and is over with. It's also the intransitive definition that is in use here: to make a judgment, especially after deliberation. Balance of probabilities: this is why we don't have further sources, there's nothing more to report. It's a shame a new flag wasn't chosen to replace it, but there was no flag prior to 1988/1989, so it's not exactly a foreign status. But this does not change that the centennial flag was decommissioned. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:27, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  Here's another piece of the narrative to add some clarity to the issue. "County says it will choose a single logo". Spokeman-Review, Monday, March 7, 2005, page A5, in the Region section, article by Amy Cannata. (The previously referenced the unsigned article that states "Commisioners have decided to decommision this version." was written by Amy Cannata as well, if you scroll up to the top of column, it is apparent). There is plenty of information available to understand the history. Most of this online back and forth is merely semantics and pedantry. If you actually care about the history of Spokane County, read the actual articles and the facts will reveal themselves. Leif One (talk) 18:02, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  Here is an info dump of the public record discovered so far.

  Washington Centennial, Spokane County Celebration Committee, Spirit of '89

  -April 14, 1988 Spokesman-Review and Spokane Chronicle, page 2S, Washington Centennial article by Lara Olson, 'John R. Monaghan was quite a guy' "...Spirit of '89 is sponsoring a flag design contest..Puget Sound Tent and Awning Company has agreed to produce, free of charge, a flag for each county to commemorate the Centennial."

  -October 19, 1988, Spokane Chronicle, page 5, written by staff, 'Count's new flag depicts Indian, sun' (head looking left). "...winning design by Stephanie Bumgarner-Ott,...daughter of state Rep. Gary Bumgarner. There are plans to display the flag,along with flags from other Washington counties, in Olympia as part of the Centennial Celebrations, said county Commissioner Keith Shepard."

  -June 5, 1988 The Olympian, page 20 'State's counties will fly their flags at centennial year inaugural gala' by Alice Watts.

  -October 19, 1988 page 1. 'County has flag of its own' by Jeff Shur

  -May 12, 1995,Spokesman-Review 'Hasson Says Says County Flag Doesn't Fly Banner Probably Was Better Left Unfurled' by Dan Hansen

  -May 2001, digital replication added (head looking right) to crwflags.com This same website indicates below the flag that "it is reported that there is no known flag." Spokane County, Washington (U.S.) 2019-08-24 rick wyatt. Image by Jens Pattke, 6 May 2001. Description of the Flag A dark green flag with a descending broad blue diagonal, overlain by an orange disk bearing a silhouette of an Indian head in brown. Source: "Welcome to Washington", 2nd edition by Clem Buckley and Jim Bruner (c) 1998 Jim Bruner, Publisher ISBN: 0-9628251-1-5. Falko Schmidt, 6 May 2001

  -April 8, 2002, Spokesman-Review, page 6, 'Our flag was still there!' "...workers uncovered the banner in a drawer last week,..It was not proudly hailed. "This is ugly," Commissioner Kate McCaslin said. The courthouse's copy of the banner was last sighted in 1995, before slipping into obilivion. ...Appalled by its appearance and apprehensive that it may now offend Native Ammericans, commissioners have decided to decommission this version. ...planned to create a design competition before September 2002."

  -March 7, 2005 County says it will choose a single logo.

  -June 2023, vector image uploaded to Wikipedia based on the crwflag.com image and added to the Spokane County page.

  -March 2024, I called Spokane County and a spokesperson stated "I have been asked this multiple times. There is no official flag for Spokane County. The only official representation is the County logo."

  Please add any other relevant information. Leif One (talk) 21:37, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Straw poll

@Leif One, Excelsiorsbanjo, JTRamsey, SounderBruce, and IndysNotHere: Since the page has been protected given the edit war, let's reset on this and do a straw poll to see where people stand. Obviously anyone is welcome to !vote here, but unless additional sources are found I don't see that further discussion is going to accomplish much. From my reading of the sources available, it appears the flag was part of a contest sponsored by the State Centennial Committee (see the Tri-City Herald, circa June 5 and 13, 1988). The flag was produced and used for a gala event marking the centennial (apparently many counties prior to this didn't have flags), and other than Avista apparently flying it, the flag was largely ignored after that before being rediscovered and "decommissioned" by the county some time before 2002 (this is the most recent source discussing the flag, and given that it was decommissioned, makes sense that it's the last source we can find discussing it). A contest to design a new flag was apparently being planned, but never came to fruition. Prior to the centennial flag design Spokane County did not have a flag, so the commissioners decommissioning the flag returns us to a flag-less state as existed prior to 1988-1989.

Should the centennial flag be included in the infobox atop the article?

With all the above discussion and this recap in mind, please !vote "include" or "exclude" to include or exclude the flag from the infobox.

Exclusion from the infobox does not preclude having it in the article body (as it currently is) to discuss it as part of the history of Spokane County. —Locke Cole • t • c 17:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Exclude, no sources provided since the 2002 source stating it had been decommissioned by the county to indicate it is still valid or in use by Spokane County as an official flag. The lack of sources since 2002 suggest it was not replaced, thus leaving us with Spokane County being "flag-less" as it was prior to 1988/1989. —Locke Cole • t • c 17:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Exclude, the origin is even murky, nothing legal found to document it was an official action, other than it was part of the centennial celebration planning. Being a Spokane history enthusiast for many years, I've never known the flag existed, nor have I ever met anyone that knew it existed. I'm very ok, with the it being relegated to being an historical oddity. Leif One (talk) 19:49, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Exclude 147.222.97.15 (talk) 21:19, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Exclude, published newspaper sources in Spokane, and throughout the state, clearly declare that the 39 county flags were citizen-designed and chosen by selection in a contest held within each county in 1988 to be displayed during various events held during the state's centennial year, 1989. The flags were designed to commemorate the centennial celebration and were retired to the capital rotunda in Olympia after the celebration where they remain today in honor of the occasion. The April 8, 2002 Spokesman-Review stated in an article about the flag "Appalled by its appearance and apprehensive that it may now offend Native Americans, commissioners have decided to decommission this version" (in favor of holding a contest for a new design to be flown from the WWP Co/Avista Post Street Electric Substation). No such contest appears to have commenced. StarlingVulgaris (talk) 21:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Exclude, per the information provided above. I have searched for additional information regarding the flag, however currently I haven't really found anything else to contribute to the discussion unfortunately. Considering the flag was decommissioned and that the county itself says they only use the logo that is currently in place, I see no solid reason to keep it in the infobox. 🌀CycloneFootball71🏈 |sandbox 19:58, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Poll discussion

Extended commentary should be made here.

• I'm open to considering more/different sources, but after extensive research and consulting with some local historians it appears nothing has really occurred since the 2002 "decommissioned" article from The Spokesman-Review. I've also ping'd the original uploader as they were never ping'd in the earlier discussion above. —Locke Cole • t • c 17:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  As noted above the original uploader of the flag, apparently, only has an interest in flags and heraldry. I could not see any connection to Spokane County or Washington State. Also, the flag first appeared on the Wikipedia page in June of 2023, so almost a whole year now (6 months squabbling over whether it merits such prominence in the InfoBox. @Locke Cole thank you for your interest and efforts on this topic. Leif One (talk) 19:52, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  I was not expecting my upload to turn into a 6-month long argument, my god; I was simply under the impression each of the flags in the Washington State Capitol were still the official flags, especially since there's that one video showing they're all presided infront of the legislature upon the request of the Lieutenant Governor. @_@ IndysNotHere (talk) 06:12, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for your input. It is debatable whether the flags were ever "official" or were merely designed amidst the fervor of the Spirit of '89 celebration. Something to hold as each county was recognized as Washington state celebrated 100 years of statehood. The county flags were used, in an inauguration ceremony, then retired in the capitol dome. It existed, that's undeniable. Spokane County, forgot about it, rejected it when it was rediscovered, and has declared they only have one symbol, the logo. You won't see that flag anywhere, not since 1995 at least, and only if you looked at the group of flags at the Post street substation operated by Avista (formerly Washington Water Power). Leif One (talk) 23:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  I have been following this discussion for a bit and have asked around; no one whom I know who lived here between 1988-2002 had really any memory of a flag, except for maybe in passing discussion. I also reached out to the county, and was told that the only flag or logo used is the one that is currently used. That being said, it definitely existed, but obviously was not of enough importance (considering the county itself forgot about it) to be kept around, among other reasons. I find it surprising anyone is defending keeping the flag in the infobox, seeing as it has been out of commission for over 20 years. It can still be in the article of course, and maybe with the information we have, someone could write up a paragraph or 2 about the flag, since it does have at least a bit of historical background. 🌀CycloneFootball71🏈 |sandbox 19:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  There is a paragraph about the flag under the Flag and Symbols heading. It contains a synopsis of its origin and history. An image of the flag is also represented. Leif One (talk) 23:44, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  My apologies, it was an accidental oversight on my part. I see the paragraph now. 🌀CycloneFootball71🏈 |sandbox 21:42, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

  No worries. Leif One (talk) 00:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)