Talk:St. James's Place plc

No title

edited the following by removing "leading".

"St. James's Place plc (LSE: STJ) is a leading British-based life assurance and unit trust business. It is headquartered in Cirencester and is a constituent of the FTSE 250 Index."

SJP is not a leading british-based life assurance & unit trust business. It has a small market share and "leading" is more of a marketing claim than a factual one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.79.44.128 (talk) 18:42 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest

Please note that an editor with a conflict of interest has removed the following properly sourced information:

In July 2017 an investigation by "Which" revealed that St James’s Place had been misleading customers on charges. The findings of the investigation were shared with the Financial Conduct Authority.

References

The material has been removed simply because it was "negative press" but it sees to me to be highly relevant to the article. Views welcome. Dormskirk (talk) 20:23, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

It should be added back as Which? is a reliable source. It just obvious paid edit as censor or PR team in wikipedia. Other source he removed (Special:Diff/838376298) may need query in Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard BTW. Matthew_hk tc 22:02, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Removed citation

Removed this citation:

 5. "'My £4,845 pension policy is now worth £945'". The Telegraph. 21 October 2017. Retrieved 26 December 2018.

From:

"In 2000, HBOS plc took a 60 per cent shareholding in the business which became St. James's Place plc in 2006.[5]"

Replaced with the following citations:

→ 4. "Annual Report & Accounts 2017 - St. James's Place" (PDF). Retrieved 1 July 2019.

→ 5. "Our heritage". www.sjp.co.uk. Retrieved 2019-07-01.

The original citation seemed out of place to me, please provide further input as I noticed ongoing conflict of interest concerns here.

Doogbly (talk) 19:00, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

It is not that good to replace a secondary source to primary source. Is there a better secondary source? Matthew hk (talk) 19:10, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

The secondary source ("My £4,845 pension policy is now worth £945") did not provide any information about the phrase "In 2000, HBOS plc took a 60 per cent shareholding in the business which became St. James's Place plc in 2006" but the citation (Annual Report & Accounts 2017) verified that claim (see pg. 2 "Halifax Group plc (later HBOS and then Lloyds Banking Group) acquires 60% of the issued share capital of the Group" - I'll see if I can find a secondary source for verification. Doogbly (talk) 20:51, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

This article also could be used to verify the statement. Doogbly (talk) 20:54, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Yup. The Guardian was considered as reliable source and unlike Financial Times it is not gated by paywall. Matthew hk (talk) 22:59, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Great, I added the citation. Thanks! Doogbly (talk) 17:33, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Expanded history

I expanded the history section adding secondary sources found from years 2014 - 2018. Moved and reworded the line "St. James's Place has recently expanded its financial services to Asia, with offices located in Hong Kong, China and Singapore." that was previously at the bottom, to the 2013-2014 paragraph. Doogbly (talk) 18:15, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Request for changes

Hi, I am proposing the following changes to this article to bring it up to date and make it more accurate. In compliance with WP:PAID, I am affiliated with St James’s Place plc and am aware of the Conflict of Interest guidelines. I have provided sources to keep things objective, but if you have any questions or comments please either message below or contact me on my Talk page. Many thanks in advance!

1. In the opening sentence of the lead, to help contextualise the company accurately, can

"St. James's Place plc (branded as St. James's Place Wealth Management) is a British multinational wealth management business based in Cirencester, England."

please be changed to

"St. James's Place plc (branded as St. James's Place Wealth Management) is one of the largest wealth management businesses in the UK, and is based in Cirencester, England."

Suggested reference: https://www.ft.com/content/b420197e-7c8a-4b44-91b7-16c108938ea2

"St James’s Place to make passive funds push", Financial Times, Siobhan Riding, 17 May 2020

2. In the History section, please can

"In February 2018, St. James's Place Wealth Management acquired Harvest Financial Services."

be removed as this acquisition did reach an advanced stage, but was abandoned in January 2020: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/st-james-s-place-abandons-deal-to-buy-dublin-investment-firm-harvest-1.4136211

3. Also in the History section, can

"As of October 2018, St. James's Place manages over £100bn of assets."

be removed and updated to

"As of May 2021, St. James's Place has over £135 billion in funds under management."

Suggested reference: https://www.cityam.com/funds-under-management-swell-to-a-record-135bn-at-st-jamess-place/

"Funds under management swell to a record £135bn at St James's Place", City AM, Josh Martin, 29 April 2021

Can this also be moved to the end of the history section and away from the 2018/2019 events?

4. Finally, at an appropriate point in the History section, can you please add:

"Prudential’s Paul Manduca replaced Iain Cornish as the firm’s chairman after its AGM in May 2021."

Suggested reference: https://www.ft.com/content/06cdced9-0709-42d3-a080-9932100c2c5f

"St James’s Place appoints Paul Manduca as next chairman", Financial Times, Madison Derbyshire, 17 December 2020

Wracksheri (talk) 14:10, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi Wracksheri, I've made edits 2, 3, and 4 per above, as these all look like straightforward updates. I didn't complete edit 1 as it reads as a bit promotional to me, though other editors may see it differently.

Mrmctorso (talk) 17:12, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi Mrmctorso, thank you for making those changes, and I do understand where you are coming from regarding edit 1. It is hard to draw a line on such phrasing, because while it is factual and arguably helps to demonstrate scale, it can very easily be read in a similar light to "leading" and other such shifty adjectives. Obviously I'm happy to leave this discussion to yourself and others interested in this article who don't share my COI, regardless of the consensus reached. Thanks again for your help! Wracksheri (talk) 17:40, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Since @Mrmctorso: did not respond to the above, I am closing this request as answered. If Mrmctorso returns, they may open a new request. Z1720 (talk) 04:28, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

New logo update

Hi again Wikipedia community. As mentioned in my previous request, I am both affiliated with SJP and aware of this platform's strict COI guidelines. With that in mind, I would like to request that the company logo currently on the page be updated with the official new one. The image has already been uploaded onto the Wikimedia platform and is free to use. It can be found here:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:St._James%27s_Place_Logo.jpg

Thank you for your time and for helping to keep the company's page up-to-date. Wracksheri (talk) 11:01, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

done. Dormskirk (talk) 11:44, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Structural changes and additional information

I am the new editor working for St. James's Place. Editor Jeremy Alderman is no longer connected to the firm. This article currently consists only of a History section. For clarity and encyclopedic value, I am asking to divide the content of the article to sections. My suggested breakdown:

• History-to include the first three paragraphs of the article and the information about the July 2017 Which? investigation, the July 2019 ombudsman concerns, and the November 2019 footballers' legal issue
• Acquisitions- to include the details about HBOS stake (current fourth paragraph), as well as the March 2014, July 2015, and April 2016 acquisitions
• Governance and operations- to include February 2017 resignation of CEO David Bellamy, the January 2018 appointment of Andrew Croft as CEO, and the May 2021 appointment of Paul Manduca (current last paragraph); as well as add the following sentence: In September 2022, behavioral economist Joe Wiggins, director of liquid markets at St. James's Place, left the firm.

Similarly, I would like to request the addition of new sections to this article, with relevant details:

• Partnerships and education to include the following information:

St. James Place partners with Care Sourcer to provide customized long-term elder care services and the financial strategy for covering the cost of such care.

The firm partnered with Altus Consulting to develop a digital learning platform for financial education for vulnerable customers.

SJP and the University of Gloucestershire developed a programme for financial planners; in November 2021, the first 12 SJP cohort graduated from the programme.

In 2023, SJP partnered with Young Enterprise to provide accreditation to primary and secondary schools offering financial education.

• Innovation to include the following information:

In November 2021, St. James's Place initiated the use of virtual reality headsets for training new employees.

In August 2022, St. James's Place launched its first digital application for clients' use.

References

I appreciate the community's help in improving this article with these structural changes and content additions. WJack11 (talk) WJack11 (talk) 09:07, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

These seem ok, but I can't see all the refs (FT etc). Are the additions your drafts - ie is this what you would add? Johnbod (talk) 13:10, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Johnbod, thanks for taking a look. The above content (specifically the inclusion of two new sections Partnership and education and Innovation) reflects my suggested additions to the article. The sources provided support the information therein; I can provide quotes within the citations if that would be helpful. Thanks again for your assistance WJack11 (talk) 14:57, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: First three requests are both lacking in content and sourcing. Innovation is completely irrelevant and ad-like. As for partnerships, I've only implemented the bit about elder care, as the other three relied on dubious sourcing and were routine in nature. PK650 (talk) 00:18, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: It appears that the basic factual information in the page is (or was) substantially incorrect. Until that's sorted out there seems to be little point in adding trivial detail such as the creation of an app (though one might reasonably ask why the company waited so long after everyone else to do that). What's principally missing from the page now is a clear statement of what the company is actually selling (it has 2000 salesmen, right?). Is it insurance, pension schemes, unit trusts, or what? Nor is there any account of how or when it was listed on the LSE. What is St. James's Place Wealth Management, and how does it relate to the parent company? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:20, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Factual accuracy

Text in this page seems to contradict what is reported to Companies House: the ostensible topic of the article, St. James's Place plc, company number 03183415, is not the same as St. James's Place Wealth Management plc, company number 04113955. Manduca is listed as an officer (non-executive director) of the former, but not of the latter. There has never been a company called 'J Rothschild Assurance Group'; St. James's Place Wealth Management plc was started in 2000 as Quayshelfco 814 Limited; St. James's Place UK plc, company number 02628062, was started in 1991 by Wilson and Weinberg, without Rothschild, as Sumner Wilson Limited, and later changed its name to J. Rothschild Assurance plc. What's the story here? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:49, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

It looks to me that the business was restructured in 2000 when HSBC took control. I would recommend that an extra paragraph is inserted into the history section explaining that restructuring. Dormskirk (talk) 13:08, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I have re-written the early history from independent sources. I hope that helps. Dormskirk (talk) 14:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers Are you OK with my re-write? Best wishes, Dormskirk (talk) 12:11, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Dormskirk, you're much better than I am at this corporate stuff, and your edits have certainly addressed some or most of the problems I listed above – thank you! According to my reading of the Companies House records, J. Rothschild Assurance plc was not started by Rothschild, whatever the source says, but by Weinberg and Wilson, and then changed its name after Rothschild put money in. The company listed on the stock exchange appears to be St. James's Place plc, formerly St. James's Place Capital plc, so the lead as written is simply wrong. Manduca is listed as chairman, but no source confirms that he is (I can't access the 'announcement' in the FT, but announcing something does not mean that it will happen, and anyway WP:CRYSTAL). I'll have another look at this later.

Once the basic facts are sorted out, I propose removing the various comings and goings of non-notable (i.e., no-article) people to and from non-crucial positions in the company (i.e., all but chairman and managing director) – this is really profoundly uninteresting content. What might be useful here is some idea of what the company actually does – do you have any idea? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:28, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers Thanks for that. I think I have covered most of your comments with further amendments and I have also inserted something into the lead on what I think the company actually does. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 14:16, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Justlettersandnumbers and Dormskirk for your attention. I will attempt to lend clarity to this discussion. SJP is a wealth management service firm. This Investors' Chronicle article describes SJP as a "combined adviser, fund manager, life insurance business" which is an accurate summary of what the firm does; this profile includes additional details about SJP's services.

SJP has been listed on the LSE since 1997. The above-referenced Investment Week profile and the official SJP website indicate this. This synopsis from Companieshistory.com also states the initial LSE listing year as 1997.

Finally, SJP's various affiliate companies can be explained as follows. St. James’s Place plc (SJP plc) (company number 03183415) is the parent of subsidiary undertakings referred to collectively as “St. James’s Place Group” and as such its nature of business is classified as ‘Activities of head offices’. For many years the Group was known as, and traded under, the name St. James’s Place Wealth Management until March 2022 at which time the Group rebranded as St. James’s Place.

The Group has some 50 subsidiaries within its structure, each with unique nature of business classifications dependent upon the purpose the entity serves the Group.

The direct subsidiaries under SJP plc within the Group’s structure are St. James’s Place Charitable Foundation (company number 07819270), St. James’s Place DFM Holdings Limited (company number 09687687) and St. James’s Place Wealth Management Group Limited (SJP WMG) (company number 02627518). St. James’s Place Wealth Management plc (SJP WM plc) (company number 04113955) is a direct subsidiary undertaking of SJP WMG, with its ultimate parent undertaking being SJP plc. SJP WM plc’s nature of business is classified as ‘Activities auxiliary to financial intermediation not elsewhere classified’ and serves the Group with its Principal Activity being UK Distribution of services provided by the Group.

Hopefully these details answer the questions you've brought up. I appreciate the Wiki-community's investment in clarifying, improving, and updating this article. WJack11 (talk) 09:41, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks WJack11 for that: I have added the Investors Chronicle description to the lead. Justlettersandnumbers are you OK with this? Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 11:08, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Dormskirk and Justlettersandnumbers, does all this detail clarify the situation enough to remove the accuracy tag from the article? I'm available to answer any further questions. WJack11 (talk) 14:12, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

OK with me. Dormskirk (talk) 14:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

SJP educational work

Now that the factual accuracy concerns have been resolved, as per the discussion above, I would like to revisit the possibility of introducing additional sections and content to this article. I am suggesting:

• Educational initiatives

SJP and the University of Gloucestershire offer a programme for financial planners; the first cohort of graduates completed the accreditation in November 2021.

In 2023, SJP began a partnership with Young Enterprise to provide accreditation to primary and secondary schools offering financial education.

References

These programs specifically represent SJP's work with notable UK institutions. Johnbod, Kind Tennis Fan, and Dormskirk might you (re)consider making these additions? Thanks in advance. WJack11 (talk) 12:43, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion, these are the sort of initiatives that many public companies undertake and, as such, the information is not notable. Best wishes, Dormskirk (talk) 13:59, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm ok with these myself - Dormskirk, note that WP "notability" applies to article subjects, and not every piece of article content. Johnbod (talk) 17:45, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware of that. Let's see if other editors have strong views either way. Happy to defer to you if you think this information should be included. Best wishes, Dormskirk (talk) 18:26, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

These are all low quality sources and basically churnalism. I don't think that they should be included in the article. SmartSE (talk) 19:53, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree with SmartSE and Domskirk. I am considering declining this. Quetstar (talk) 20:19, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Per the developing consensus to decline. The request edit process is useful for the correction of errors or omissions in the article of basic verifiable facts. Requests for the addition of promotional content based on the usual press-releases are (very) unlikely to be accepted. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:22, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Update to Funds Under Management Request

Hi, I’m here to request another edit. As before, I’m affiliated with SJP and working in compliance with WP:PAID [en-two.iwiki.icu].

I’m proposing a simple edit to update the ‘funds under management’ figure in the introductory section, as it is inconsistent with what is listed in the info box under ‘AUM’ and is also out of date.

The info box contains the latest figure of 148.4 billion, whereas in the introductory section the figure is listed at 135 billion, as of 2021.

We are proposing the introductory section figure is updated to match the info box figure and the same source is used.

If there is need for additional sourcing, we propose the following: https://www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/news/AN_1674725775893399500/top-news-st-jamess-place-sees-annual-funds-under-management-fall-.aspx [morningstar.co.uk]

As well as this, for consistency and to avoid any confusion, we propose that the abbreviation is changed in the info box to read ‘FUM’, rather than ‘AUM’. The phrases are interchangeable, and bringing this in line would mean consistency on the page. Further to this, within both the sources for this figure, it is referred to as ‘Funds Under Management’ and therefore ‘FUM’ as an abbreviation would be more accurate. WJack11 (talk) 11:51, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Since this post, there have been additional sources posted to support the new FUM management figure of £153.62bn. This is the most up to date figure. Please can this be used to update both instances instead of the 148.4bn figure. Sources below. Thank you.

https://citywire.com/middle-east/news/uk-wealth-manager-expands-presence-in-middle-east/a2418113

https://www.sjp.co.uk/insights-and-media/corporate-news/first-quarter-new-business-inflows-and-funds-under-management-update-2023 WJack11 (talk) 08:51, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Reply 30-JUN-2023

  Edit request partially implemented  

1. The funds under management figure in the lead and infobox were updated.
2. Requests to change infobox settings such as the |AUM= parameter should be submitted at the template's talk page.

Regards,  Spintendo  22:52, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for actioning this. Appreciated. WJack11 (talk) 14:14, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Edit request for accuracy of office location status

Hi, we have another edit request to ensure the page is kept up to date. As always, I’m affiliated with SJP and working in compliance with WP:PAID [en-two.iwiki.icu].

There have been recent changes to SJP's office locations internationally that are not currently reflected on the page. Notably, SJP has recently opened offices in Dubai and SJP’s office in Shanghai is now no longer operational. To reflect this, we propose two edits:

Dubai office edit proposal:

• We propose that the following line be added at the end of the ‘History’ section:
  • “In May 2023, SJP opened an office in Dubai’s International Financial Centre [en-two.iwiki.icu] (DIFC) after receiving approval from the Dubai Financial Services Authority [en-two.iwiki.icu] (DFSA).”
  • Please see supporting source: https://citywire.com/middle-east/news/uk-wealth-manager-expands-presence-in-middle-east/a2418113 [citywire.com]

Shanghai office edit proposal:

• We propose that the following line be added at the end of the ‘Acquisitions’ section, following where the Shanghai office opening was mentioned:
  • “SJP's Shanghai office was later closed in 2023.”
  • Please see supporting source: https://international-adviser.com/st-jamess-place-to-close-shanghai-office/ [international-adviser.com]

We also have additional source material that we can provide if either is deemed unacceptable. Please do provide thoughts on these edits and action when appropriate.

We thank you for your continued help with keeping this page accurate and up to date. WJack11 (talk) 15:43, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Hey Jack, I have taken the liberty of adding the paragraph that you requested for the new office as I feel this is really something people are actually looking for in this article. I have so far not changed the Shanghai Office as this seems to steer into the question of History.

I am not strongly opposed to it, I am just wondering if this construction is really necessary or if it would be sufficient to remove the earlier reference to Shanghai. My thought process in this regard is that I feel the tallying of every opening and closing of offices is adding more confusion than clarity to readers of this page. But I am open to input here. GGLibrarian (talk) 20:13, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@GGLibrarian My feeling is that the Dubai office can be listed in the infobox (and perhaps as a one sentence claim in the body of the article). The listing of office locations is not really the purpose of the article per, WP:NOTDIRECTORY. If the company's website is listed in the info box or in the external link section then readers can go there to find information on where offices are located. Regards,  Spintendo  01:04, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your quick responses here. In regard to the Dubai office edit, we feel this is important information to include. We are aware of sentiment around WP:NOTDIRECTORY; however, feel this goes beyond a ‘directory’ input as it has wide reaching implications for the business and region. It is more than just an ‘office opening’ but marks an intention to trade and service clients in a whole new geography for the business. SJP has affiliate ‘offices’ all over the UK and understand that inputting these would be unnecessary. The Dubai office is a different story, as it is a material development for our business operations, client base and shareholders.

In regard to the Shanghai office. We are happy with either outcome, whether the original reference is removed or that our suggestion is inputted. Our intention here was to ensure that the line was not misleading

Thanks again for your continued input. WJack11 (talk) 12:38, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Again, the information provided here does not state how this change of offices is better stated here than on a website provided by the subject company. You stated that "the Dubai office is a different story, as it is a material development for our business operations, client base and shareholders" but none of those considerations are Wikipedia's. Communicating this type of development is up to the company itself on its own terms using its own websites. If you'd like, I can place Dubai as a second |hq_location_city= parameter or as an |area_served= parameter in the infobox.  Spintendo  00:37, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for providing additional reasoning. Adding the location and area served into the info box would be a welcome addition to the page, thank you. However, we do continue to believe that this material change to SJP’s operations also warrants a line mention somewhere in the article. If the argument is that changes/developments to a company’s operations should be communicated via a website and not Wikipedia, then this would make a large amount of information on corporate Wikipedia pages redundant/subject to removal. This is a development that is objectively relevant to the general public’s understanding of SJP’s operations and history and documenting that accurately must also be a consideration for Wikipedia.

There may be an argument to say that this line would be more suited elsewhere on the article. There has been discussion previously on the Talk page that refers to the need for more detail on how SJP is structured and what it ‘does’. There could be potential resolution to both that issue and to this dispute around mention of the Dubai office, with the creation of an ‘operations’ section. Do you feel that this would be a more appropriate place for the Dubai operations mention to sit? We have prepared proposed, cited copy and would appreciate your feedback. We will start another thread with our suggestion to avoid confusion.

In the meantime, perhaps we should wait for more input and a consensus to allow for a fair resolution? We do appreciate your attention to the page and continued assistance with our edit requests. WJack11 (talk) 08:42, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Edit Request: New SJP CEO Announced

Hello. I’m posting again to request a simple, factual edit. As previously stated, I’m affiliated with SJP and working in compliance with WP:PAID [en-two.iwiki.icu].

I’m proposing that an edit be made to the ‘People’ section to reflect the news that SJP have announced a new CEO, Mark FitzPatrick, who will be joining as Chief Executive Officer Designate from 1^st October 2023 before assuming the role of Chief Executive Officer on 1^st December 2023.

This edit could read as:

"In September 2023 Andrew Croft stepped down as CEO of SJP after five years in the role. Mark FitzPatrick was unveiled as SJP’s new CEO, officially taking over the role in December 2023. It was confirmed that Andrew Croft would be staying within the business heading into 2024 on an advisory basis."

There are a range of sources to support this change. We propose one of the following are used:

- https://thebusinessmagazine.co.uk/professional-services/st-jamess-place-appoints-mark-fitzpatrick-as-ceo/[thebusinessmagazine.co.uk]

- https://www.ftadviser.com/companies/2023/09/13/sjp-names-former-pru-boss-mark-fitzpatrick-as-ceo/ [ftadviser.com]

Once again, thank you for your continued efforts in keeping the company page up to date. WJack11 (talk) 13:22, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Reply 5-OCT-2023

  Edit request implemented    Spintendo  18:55, 5 October 2023 (UTC)