Talk:Título de Totonicapán

A fact from Título de Totonicapán appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 11 April 2013 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the whereabouts of the original K'iche' version of the 16th-century Título de Totonicapán was unknown after its translation into Spanish in 1834 until it was shown to American anthropologist Robert Carmack in 1973?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2013/April. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Título de Totonicapán.

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Balderdash about the Popul Vu

I have

The Book of the People:
POPUL VUH
Translated into English by
Delia Goetz and Sylvanus Griswold Morley
from Adrián Recino's translation
from Quiché into Spanish
Plantin Press, Los Angeles
[1954, copyright not registered or renewed]

in pdf format on my computer. This makes it quite easy to search for terms like "seven", "cave", "canyon", etc. Based on searching for terms in this article, I find that almost all of what it says in this article about the Pupul Vuh is completely false or else some author severely interpreted it to come to some pre-ordained conclusion. Before deleting everything in this article, I will carefully re-read the whole thing, but I an inclined to remove almost everything about the Popul Vuh from the article. Is there an on-line English translation of this book as well? Senor Cuete (talk) 21:37, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All this is correct as cited. This is a mobile edit so I can't check your PDF right now, but I think I have Recinos' original in Spanish. The most likely explanation is that the version you are using is using untranslated K'iche' placenames. Simon Burchell (talk) 21:48, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Check out Christenson's version of the Popol Vuh at Mesoweb, p. 197. has "...Tulan Zuyva (footnoted as Suywa, "bloody water"). Seven Caves and Seven Canyons", and p. 200. "when they came from Tulan Zuyva, the Seven Caves and the Seven Canyons". There may be more, but that is enough to support the journal article. The version you used inexplicably skips this phrase in the text altogether, referring simply to "in Tulán, in Zuyva".

Christenson's dual English and K'iche' text clearly shows the K'iche' "Tulan Zuywa, Wuqub' Pek, Wuqub' Siwan" on p. 5370 (PDF page 187), with its translation "Tulan Zuywa, Seven Caves, Seven Canyons" Simon Burchell (talk) 08:35, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tedlock's version at Google Books also verifies the Seven Caves, Seven Canyons. Simon Burchell (talk) 10:38, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, you are correct. Senor Cuete (talk) 13:02, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

English translation?

Is there an English translation of the Titulo, hopefully on-line? Senor Cuete (talk) 21:59, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Google didn't throw up any quick results (as I'm sure your aware), however I checked my copy of Carmack's "Quichean Civilization", which says "Delia Goetz' (1953) excellent English rendering of Recino's version is suitable for citations not involving precise analysis. Google books link here - no preview unfortunately, but maybe you can get hold of it in a library. Actually, I'm surprised there aren't more translations into English - I found nothing at JSTOR or Project MUSE. BTW, most of what was added yesterday and that I reverted certainly isn't in the Título (there is definitely no mention of Shalmaneser or Assyria, or anything else biblical, other than a mention of Sinai) - it all must have come from some Mormon source. Simon Burchell (talk) 19:42, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I knew it was some Mormon source - probably a web site. The LDS has been trying for many years to find evidence of the truth of the Book of Mormon story, the lost tribes migrating to the Americas, etc. and in recent years the Titulo has become a major part of this. Also the writings of Alva Ixtlilxochitl. Senor Cuete (talk) 21:23, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I searched Amazon.com for "The Annals of the Cakchiquels" and found a number of English language editions. Senor Cuete (talk) 15:17, 6 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the christian references that USER:devinutahjazz added to the article really are in the book. I'll add a c reference to the book and the parts that are correct, with reliable sources. Senor Cuete (talk) 20:06, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the expansion - I had no idea. Following up, I read on a Mormon site (I forget which), that the Biblical introduction was lifted straight from Domingo de Vico's Theologia Indorum. I'll see if I can find a better ref. Simon Burchell (talk) 09:22, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There's more. In the Quiché version of the Mesoamerican creation myth, the Seven Caves are in Israel and their leader brings them over to Guatemala from there. I'll add this today. The story doesn't really back up the Mormon version - there's no Lehi or Nefi and they come over by metaphysical means, not on barges as in the Book of Mormon. I bought a 1953 first edition of the double volume that includes the Annals of the Chacchiquels. It has a large number of western dates that are correlated with Tzolk'in dates. This has been overlooked as a source of study of the correlation question. Senor Cuete (talk) 14:58, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I got this from Google Books, confirming that it came from the Theologia Indorum, I'll drop it into the article. Simon Burchell (talk) 17:15, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Check out my recent edits. Obviously this article is under construction. I welcome other editors to read the Titulo and improve it. I think that the article has to contain some text about the Mormon's belief that this document describes the migration of the lost tribes of Israel to the new world, led by Nephi and Lehi. Senor Cuete (talk) 17:35, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Simon Burchell: Thanks for your corrections to my additions to the article. I've always been a terrible speller and proof reader. Senor Cuete (talk) 18:52, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

History of the document

According to Carmack himself (2007:VII):

La evidencia disponible sugiere que el manuscrito que hemos localizado es el mismo que tradujo el Padre Dionisio José Chonay en 1834 (Recinos 1957: 211 214). El manuscrito fue llevado en aquel año por los indígenas de Totonicapán ante el juez de primera instancia, sin duda para apoyar su defensa de tierras en contra de otros pueblos. El juez pidió su traducción al Padre Chonay, quien la realizó en el corto tiempo de tres semanas.

Spanish for

"The available evidence suggests that the manuscript we have located is the same one translated by Fr. Dionisio José Chonay in 1834 (Recinos 1957: 211 214). The manuscript was brought in that year by the indigenous people of Totonicapán before the judge of first instance, doubtlessly to support their land defense against other peoples. The judge asked Father Chonay to translate it, who did so in the short time of three weeks."

(2007) Carmack, Robert M. Uwujil Kulewal Aj Chwi' Meq'ina', El Título de Totonicapán. Guatemala: Cholsamaj.

(1957) Recinos, Adrián. Crónicas Indígenas de Guatemala. Guatemala: Editorial Universitaria.

I suggest this be added to the article. Big-latigo (talk) 06:36, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]