Talk:Teaching of Welsh history

Merger/rename

Clearly this article isn't about history education in Wales, it appears to be a very lengthy complaint about Welsh history being overlooked in the modern curriculum, a specific part of the Curriculum for Wales (2022-present). I would argue either
(1) the article is renamed, though Lack of teaching of Welsh history in Wales might be seen as another NPOV creation
(2) the article is rewritten to give a balanced view of history teaching in Wales - though there are no other precedents for articles about teaching of a specific subject in schools
(3) the article is selectively merged into Curriculum for Wales (2022-present), which clearly is it's sole focus. Sionk (talk) 13:53, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

NB my preference would be the latter. Sionk (talk) 13:55, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the article doesn't give enough weight to the curriculum in general and other aspects of history teaching. The article reflects the significant weight given to Welsh and ethnic minority history in the media. I'm currently working on this and in the middle of doing more research into other areas that aren't as well written about. I prefer option 2 at the moment but not against any in particular. Titus Gold (talk) 15:12, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Option 3 would be my !vote. I don't quite see what the significant weight is in the media, nor why that drives a need for an article. Curriculum for Wales appears to be the parent article. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:19, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Sorry just seen this comment. I've moved the page to Welsh history education because the content doesn't discuss other histories much. Happy to make any changes that you both see fit. Titus Gold (talk) 15:27, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

If you just Google something like "History in Wales" you'll see what I mean. Titus Gold (talk) 15:28, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

While not fully against such an article on a individual basis and would prefer (2), it has skewed too much on the new curriculum and using quotes that it has little sense as a separate article so would accept (3), although care must be done to avoid adding too much undue weight to a newly assessed good article (do not copy and paste everything to there). History education articles are indeed rare, and this article is more on "how the Curriculum for Wales (2022–present) aims to change Welsh history education" rather than an overview of how the education is delivered over a longer period rather than since the last year (following introduction). DankJae 19:00, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

@Sionk, @Sirfurboy, is the rename and re-focus on how Welsh history is taught, fine? I would prefer a more general article History education in Wales with more of the previous curricula and additional educational services, but if the new focus only how "Welsh history has been taught", and impression from the current state of the article, has been "neglected", surely Welsh history teaching would be a possible better alternative name? (Discuss before moving btw.) DankJae 22:16, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm open to widening the scope to all history education in Wales. If any of you want to go ahead with that, feel free to do so. Titus Gold (talk) 22:30, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I didn't know why the page had been renamed, and no, I don't think the rename is an improvement. There is a small majority on this talk page for the article to be merged into Curriculum for Wales, and so the bold move is against that consensus, but if a merge is likely then what it is called now is not so relevant. However I have not initiated a formal move discussion because my wikipedia time at the moment is curtailed by other work. That should change in a few days. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 23:19, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Well the majority was wholly subjective and based on the article state at the time, it has since changed a bit, although still quite a way to go, so if it were to go into the direction of generalisation, I would support retaining it instead, at least in theory. (We can consider notability then) And the article is still being developed, WP:DEMOLISH. But if a discussion is raised at a later stage opinions could be different or still support some sort of selective merge. A more-developed general article should at least be considered as an alternative or what it originally was supposed to be, but if it is clearly still scoped to other articles then a split and merge could be discussed then.

I too am busy now for such a long task, so unable to develop it for now, if a decision is considered urgent, maybe draftify it instead? DankJae 23:41, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

So yes, if the page is drifting into something different then maybe a merge won't be appropriate, but this is why merges and moves should be discussed. If this article is about something else, then a consensus is need on the name rather than having it move and move again, leading a trail of pointless redirects. Do we even know what niche this article is filling? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:08, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

I was of the opinion that the article had been salvaged by TG, but I don't think Education of Welsh History is an improved title (why is History capitalised, for a start? And you don't educate "of" something). It is frustrating as well when TG repeatedly changes article titles without discussion and without clearing up the incoming links etc. I'd prefer the previous title, Welsh history education, if anything. Sionk (talk) 13:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

(Apologies for the moves, the scopes of the articles were unclear and moves came after names used by various sources came to light.)

This article currently covers education on the history of Wales. If you want to expand it to cover all history education in Wales, go ahead. Welsh history education as a title is perhaps unclear as to whether it refers to the history of Wales or history teaching in general in Wales. I wouldn't be opposed to the content of the article moving in some way to an article like "History of the curriculum in Wales" or something like that, but the article can stand on its own. Titus Gold (talk) 14:34, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Agreed that 'Education of Welsh History' is not an improved title. Perhaps 'Teaching of Welsh history' would be better? Llwyld (talk) 01:25, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I still would like some idea about this article's purpose. The lead has:

The policy of Welsh History education in schools is part of the Curriculum for Wales (2022-present) as determined by the Welsh Government. Teaching of Welsh history and ethnic minority history was introduced as part of this new curriculum from September 2022.

which is okay but it is not really summarising anything. Is it about curriculum then? But then, reading the page, the "History of Welsh Education" section reads like an essay on the parlous state of history education in the UK in general. Only when we get to the last "21st century curricula" section do we get back to talking about the Welsh history curriculum in particular. But if it is about those, why is history singled out for a special page and not the other subjects? Could someone state, in a sentence or two, what information we want a reader to gain from this page? Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:06, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I've attempted to improve and expand the lead. Please feel free to improve further.

the page should be about the standard, quality and emphasis of the teaching of Welsh history in Wales and more recently is also about the incorporation of Welsh history into the curriculum in Wales. I don't think it should focus purely on the curriculum. Titus Gold (talk) 17:04, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

The Butler Act

I plan on adding a section about how the Butler Act affected the Education of Welsh History, inspired by https://sesc.hist.cam.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Briefing-paper-Wales.pdf. I will split this up into two sections, and talk about the education before and after the Butler Act. I found multiple resources talking about how the Butler Act affected the education system tremendously, so I think it should definitely be added onto this page. Alexisrw33 (talk) 00:29, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

If it's relevant to the teaching Welsh history, please go ahead, thanks. (Otherwise it might be more suited to Education in Wales.) Titus Gold (talk) 01:00, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Since the name of the talk page changed to the "Teaching of Welsh History", I definitely think it should be added. Alexisrw33 (talk) 23:39, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Some general background knowledge could be added here (an overview of the education system), and especially if they specifically talk about "history" (the school subject, so how topics ranging from slavery to the industrial revolution had been taught in Wales and the change of topics, based on the current scope of this article), but if it goes too much on how Wales' education system developed, then details would be best at Education in Wales. Your contributions are welcome there too! Although note Education in Wales is currently undergoing a GA review, so make sure any additions are GA compliant and if unsure, be free to start a discussion at its talk page. Welcome to Wiki! DankJae 01:43, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Resources Used to Teach Welsh History

If we want to talk about the education of Welsh History, it's important to include the sources of which the information comes from. Not only will it give readers who want more in depth information a place to go to, it could also explain the lack of teaching as well. A source I found that talks a lot about welsh history resources is https://senedd.wales/laid%20documents/cr-ld12870/cr-ld12870%20-e.pdf BocchiBand (talk) 00:35, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable, and that source seems to have some valuable information in it. Please feel free to make a contribution to the article. Titus Gold (talk) 01:02, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@Titus Gold, in light of that well needed source, could this page be renamed as Teaching of Welsh history (lowercase h), "Education" seems odd and "Teaching of" articles are more common? DankJae 02:22, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. Titus Gold (talk) 14:06, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Reword

I am planning on rewording the page. As a audience I noticed that for some content they are worded poorly or biased in a certain way. This may be important to improve the accuracy and objectivity of the content, making it more understandable to a wider audience. ShiinaAngel (talk) 06:35, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Agree it can be improved to address wording and any observed bias, be free to word it in a neutral way. Many Thanks! DankJae 18:22, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Re-wording is acceptable but please use the original sources to help you ensure that no important points, quotes or context is lost. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 16:26, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Medium Sources

Looked at the source tagged by DankJae here" [1]. It is interesting, partly because it has Harvard in text citations, e.g. The Cwricwlwm Cymreig (hereafter, CC) was a cross-curricula initiative which aimed to develop a multi-faceted, and civic sense of Welsh identity amongst pupils which did not rely on outdated, stereotypical notions of Wales and Welshness (Smith, 2016:40) but then there is no bibliography! So who is Smith? Medium is self published and not peer reviewed, so this source cannot be used. Yet the writing makes it look like this is an unedited extract from an academic paper. Finding the published paper would be helpful. I couldn't find it with a quick search, so maybe an email to the author, asking where it was published? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:06, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

BocciBand seems to have found the paper? and removed their other paragraph in this edit, though needs checking, but thanks for the find. Diolch! (Thanks!) BB DankJae 21:38, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

The author of the Medium article included a section referencing this source: The medium article said that teachers did try to teach Welsh but they weren't being appreciated. I went through the source looking for interviews about teachers not being appreciated but I couldn't find it. So I removed this point from the article entirely.

I also had another point from the medium article where education cuts resulted in about each student losing £500 towards their education. I was able to find a direct source for this and included it.

In regards to the author, I couldn't find any identifying information about them online that would reinforce their authority. There was a fellow with a similar name, but I wasn't sure if there pictures were matching or not! So yeah, I'm not gonna include this Medium article anymore.

p.s. thanks for being so kind! BocchiBand (talk) 22:33, 3 April 2023 (UTC)