Talk:Terminate with extreme prejudice

Can anyone attest that any military, U.S. or other, actually uses this term?

If so, does anyone know whether its use pre-dates Apocalypse Now?

30 years in the Army, never heard it used outside of movies. 155.213.224.59 (talk) 16:35, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

The United States Marine Corps. 1979. Parris Island. Is there any other way to kill? Cut along the dotted line, like one of those small boxes of corn flakes when making the box a bowl. That was the way it was explained. And twist. Oorah. 2403:6200:8871:CC25:64E7:93C8:E13:5D10 (talk) 09:52, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Original source?

My recollection from the era is that the term "Terminated with extreme prejudice" first appeared in a New York Times article from Vietnam. It then quickly entered the popular parlance. I think I found the actual article in the NYT online archives, on the front page for Thursday, August 14, 1969. I've added it to our article as a reference. It's hard to establish that this is the first public use of the term, so I don't say that in our article. However the term was picked up in two more pieces in the Times over the next few days, suggesting its novelty: The Green Berets in a Strange Scenario, by James P. Sterba, August 17, 1969, Sunday The Week in Review, Page E3; and Observer: The Green Berets and a Question of Style, by Russell Baker August 21, 1969, Thursday Page 40. Does anyone have an earlier reference?--agr (talk) 21:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

This was not a CIA phrase, nor one that originated with the Green Berets, but was a standard check box on Army Intelligence after action reports. Terminate without prejudice meant let an agent or operative go but allow possible future employment, Terminate with prejudice meant that he was unsuitable for future employment (the agent's name would then be put on what was known as a "burn list"). Terminate with extreme prejudice was never an official phrase but was probably more of a joke used to describe anybody, particularly an enemy, who died in combat or any other way - "He was terminated with extreme prejudice." It's quite possible that it was also used simply to designate someone who was extremely unsuited to the role of agent, and had nothing to do with killing at all. Top CIA agents claim to have never heard the phrase until it came to light during the investigation of the assassination of alleged double-agent Thai Khac Chuyen by Army Intelligence officers (it was the CIA that blew the whistle on the case). The phrase was certainly NOT widely used by the CIA in Vietnam, was probably not used at all by them, and may not have been widely used even among Army intelligence units. It simply caught on due to sensationalized news coverage of this one incident. The "New York Times" and other contemporary news organizations are not credible sources on this matter. See Jeff Stein: "A Murder In Wartime" for a good examination of the Thai Khac Chuyen case and the origin of the phrase "terminate with extreme prejudice."

Reading through this talk page I'm left with the alarming suspicion that the actual solid credible reference was added last, and that for five years the article consisted of a list of quotes from Apocalypse Now, episodes of US crime shows, and The Blues Brothers, in which it doesn't even appear. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 21:26, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I just came across the phrase in Harry Maurer’s book “Strange Ground. Americans in Vietnam 1945-1975. An oral history” NY 1989. On p348 ex-CIA agent Frank Snepp, attributes the phrase to “anonymous CIA employees” describing assassinations of alleged Viet Cong suspects by Green Berets as part of the US Phoenix programme in Vietnam. No date is given, but the context suggests this was in or around 1970. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DD:C742:1B29:DC3C:9DB8:4094:3F55 (talk) 19:21, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Popular versus technical meaning

This article describes the use of the term in the popular/media context, which seems to have originated (as the article describes) in the Vietnam war. However, the popular understanding that the term is an ironic reference to assassination is a simple misinterpretation of the phrase by a journalist who didn't understand what it meant and who published an entertaining explanation of it that was picked up and subsequently used elsewhere (most popularly in Apocalypse Now).

What the term actually means in the military context is much more prosaic, and basically the opposite of the popular meaning of "do whatever is necessary to kill X". To use "extreme prejudice" in terminating someone means to exercise a very high level of caution in making a positive identification of the target before killing them, and to ensure that there is no collateral damage. It would preclude, for example, attacking a convoy in which the target is believed to be traveling; in this example, a sniper would need to make a day-time sighting of the target and take him out before he enters his vehicle, but only if he could get a completely clear shot without risk of hitting anyone else.

Sadly, the popular definition of the phrase seems to drown out the actual technical definition on the Internet (if it's there at all), so I haven't amended the article. I suppose the phrase has taken on a popular meaning of its own so the current article can stand, but I'd like to see the actual meaning get included if anyone can find a citable source. Geoff NoNick (talk) 02:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

This doesn't make any sense. The word "prejudice" has a very clear definition and that definition is not "care" or "diligence" as implied by your explanation. Furthermore, the formal expression "terminate (or cancel) *without* prejudice" is used in contexts where something (such as a visa or a job application) is cancelled without preventing the affected individual from re-applying in the future. The euphemism "with extreme prejudice" is therefore clearly an ironic variation of this expression, because a dead person obviously can't re-apply for anything. 2001:4DF4:580A:B300:6694:BE7D:AF22:69C0 (talk) 15:06, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

good comments Geoff, thanks.151.225.92.115 (talk) 12:20, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Going by the meaning of prejudice...

Prejudice: (1) preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience. (2) [LAW] harm or injury that results or may result from some action or judgment.

With the former definition, one could say in the context of Apocalypse Now that "terminate with extreme prejudice" meant to terminate without emotional involment, proceeding with resignation and going by the information the officers told him. Martin Sheen's character might have changed his mind when he met the Colonel, maybe assessed the situation differently.

With the latter definition, the line could simply mean to kill destructively, blow out of the water.

Borrow with extreme prejudice

There is no reference available for this usage unless there is a dictionary of colloquial terms available with the term in it. However, I've heard it used (and may have used it myself). A Google search on "borrowed with extreme prejudice" returns a number of pages with the term in them. Rsduhamel 21:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Use in Star Wars

In some of the Star Wars novels and games set in the Clone Wars, a phrase is used which is very similar: "going hiking with extreme prejudice," which refers to taking action behind enemy lines and killing anyone who can blow the commandos' cover. -216.21.183.131 (talk) 06:09, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Fog Of War?

IIRC, the meaning of degree of prejudice in military context has to do with the "fog of war", i.e. uncertainty. In that case, "terminate X with extreme prejudice" would mean "kill X, and anything you think might be X". However, I can't find a ref for it. Darekun (talk) 10:36, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Reference from H. Murakami

Kafka on the Shore uses an almost identical expression (圧倒的な偏見をもって断固抹殺) which was translated to English as "liquidate with extreme prejudice." I guess Murakami had this in mind, but the translator didn't know about it.

Too busy to add a polished paragraph in the article about this. Maybe somebody with more time can.

--D昌양 (Talk) 04:36, 4 May 2014 (UTC)