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Talk:Thomas Traherne

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Good articleThomas Traherne has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 17, 2013Good article nomineeListed

Pantheist

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I've read that Traherne's work so closely links God and his creation that he might as well be a Pantheist. He is quoted by cleargy who have a new age philosophy because of this. Recently a friend of mine brought a book over that seemed to be addressed to Evangelical Christians that had a Traherne quote in it. I'd love to hear from others who have definite thoughts about Traherne and what philosophies his work is used to support.

Pantheist? Remember that he is grouped in with the Metaphysical poets, as the entry makes clear, and their work is often known for its complicated (forced?) metaphors which makes a close reading of the whole work a requirement before making a judgement such as the above. Taking sentences out of context can be misleading especially with such an original poet as Traherne. As far as his personal beliefs--from his more polemical writings it seems clear he was firmly in the camp of the Church of England. He has had a great influence in the 20th century due to his rediscovery, ie. C.S. Lewis often refers to him. I think if one reads Samuel Johnson's defense of Traherne's contemporary Thomas Browne with regards to his Orthodoxy it could as easily apply to Traherne himself.

Traherne and pantheism

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I can see why Traherne might be used by some to suppport pantheism. He says bold and imaginative things about God's revelation in and through the created world. Taken out of context these quotes might sound 'pantheistic'. The real question when judging whether or not it is 'safe' to read someone though is surely not what teachings their writings are used to support (anything can be made to support anything if it is twisted enough) but what teachings and writings have informed their work in the first place. Traherne's sources are many and varied. His most frequently quoted source is the Bible, after which he relies on the Church Fathers, and the traditional teaching of the Christian Church. The interface between Scripture and reason is a huge part of his dialogue. The newest manuscript discoveries of his work show him to be very interested in doctrinal debates such as the Calvinist/Arminian debate and the Pelagian heresy. He is deeply imbedded in the Christian tradition and goes to some length to defend orthodox Chrisitan doctrine.

Saints banner and category

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Based on this individual being included in the Calendar of saints (Anglican Church of Australia), I am adding the Category:Anglican saints and the Saints WikiProject banner to this article. I am awaiting reliable sources which can be used to add the content to the article. John Carter 16:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Confusion over dates

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I'm confused. The passage beginning "His poems have a curious history" suggests that they weren't published before they were found on a market stall in the 1890s. Then we have a reference in the Influence section which says that the character of Thomas Clarkson quotes from (and correctly attributes) one of the poems in a recent film. Our article on Thomas Clarkson says he died in the 1840s. I presume this is just an anachronism in the film. But if so, what's the point in including it in this article? Or did the poems circulate before they were found on this market stall?

Telsa (talk) 12:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The quote in the film comes from the poem The Salutation which was first published by Dobell in 1903. Clarkson cannot have known the poem from a published source, so it must therefore be an anachronism. But I suppose it says something about the impact of Traherne's poetry on English literature that it is so generally assumed that his works must have been widely known long before the 20th century. To quote another line from The Salutation: "Behind what curtain were you hid from me so long!" Man vyi 15:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I see, thanks. Yes, I agree. I came across Traherne some years ago, and it never occurred to me that it had been rediscovered (discovered, even?) in this way. I am inclined to remove the reference from the "influences" section, though, as it seems as though the influence was on the scriptwriter rather than the historical character. Telsa (talk) 06:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Substantial Changes

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I have added a considerable amount of content to Traherne's article based on a number of sources which I have listed under "References." Every new bit of content is duly sourced, and I will go over it soon to add in-text citations to verify from where each new bit of information comes. I believe Traherne, a man whose works are roundly admired in academic circles by virtually unknown outside of them, deserves a much more thorough treatment than he receives here, and I will likely be adding even more to it in the upcoming few days. If you have any questions about what I have added, please leave me a comment on my talk page. - Sestet (talk) 03:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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I don't like these type lists in articles. They smack of trivia, which is not liked by MOS and other guidelines. The following bullet point statements were removed when I renovated the article. --ColonelHenry (talk) 02:20, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • A stanza from Traherne is quoted in the movie Amazing Grace, by abolitionist Thomas Clarkson. Clarkson quotes, "Strange treasures in this fair world appear..." and goes on to say it is from a poem by Thomas Traherne.
  • The first stanza of Traherne's "The Rapture" is employed in the form of a riddle, by an assassin of sorts called a "warrior-poet", in The Broken God, a 1992 science fiction novel with philosophical leanings written by David Zindell.
  • The Incredible String Band quote from Traherne extensively in the song "Douglas Traherne Harding" on their album Wee Tam and the Big Huge, relating the philosophy of Traherne to that of Douglas Harding.
  • The title and some of the thought of Richard Wilbur's poem "A World Without Objects Is a Sensible Emptiness" comes from Traherne's Centuries of Meditations, specifically Second Century, Meditation 65.
  • Phil Rickman frequently refers to Traherne's poetry in his Merrily Watkins series of novels.
  • In his award-winning book The Snow Leopard (Bantam: 1978, pp. 216–7), Peter Matthiessen cites the mystical, even Buddhist-like sense of nature found in Centuries of Meditations.
I don't agree. The popular culture references show that his work has penetrated thence, contrary to claim made above in 2008. Xxanthippe (talk) 03:36, 30 November 2012 (UTC).[reply]
Indicate how any of them really matter. It's not like Eliot citing the legend of Philomela (and Ovid) in The Waste Land. This is a passing 10 seconds of film...most people have never seen, or writing no one reads. These references aren't even notable by a bare minimum standard.--ColonelHenry (talk) 05:13, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fluff removed from works/publication history/posthumous

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As so little of Traherne's work had (apparently) survived his death, Traherne was previously labeled a "missing person" in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. In 2004, thanks to a number of additional discoveries, his status changed so much that he is no longer labeled a "missing person". He is now highly regarded, such that if there were a picture of him (no portrait of Traherne has been authenticated), he would be put next to other well-knowns such as Wordsworth.[1]

The discoveries responsible for his renewed vindication as a theologian, beside the poems, are the Centuries of Meditations, a collection of short paragraphs or meditations reflecting on Christian life and ministry, philosophy, happiness, desire and childhood. These are gathered in groups of a hundred, four complete centuries and an unfinished fifth. Some of these, evidently autobiographical in character, describe a childhood from which the "glory and the dream" was slow to depart. Of the power of nature to inform the mind with beauty, and the ecstatic harmony of a child with the natural world, the earlier poems, which contain his best work, are full. In their manner, as in their matter, they remind the reader of William Blake and William Wordsworth. He quotes George Herbert's "Longing" in the newly discovered Lambeth manuscript.

His poems were published, in modernized spelling, in The Poetical Works of Thomas Traherne, B.D (1903), with an original-spelling edition following in 1906, and in Poems of Felicity (1910). The Centuries appeared in 1908; Select Meditations was not published until 1997.

For accounts of these discoveries see the Times Literary Supplement articles by Julia Smith and Laetitia Yeandle (7 November 1997) and Denise Inge and Cal Macfarlane (2 June 2000). These two finds are a primary factor contributing to Traherne's now being considered as much as a theologian as a poet.

  • Removed until I can find these articles and cite their findings appropriately. They seem good sources and I look forward to reading them, but this way of referencing them isn't MOS-compatible.--ColonelHenry (talk) 06:09, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Slayton, Mary (2005). "A Poet-Cleric's ‘Little Booke’". Modern Age 47(3). pp. 266–269.

Thomas Traherne (comments from Xxanthippe's talk page, DEC2012)

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NOTE: This is a comment I placed on Xxanthippe's talk page after the user reinserted unimportant popular culture references into the article (those excised as per the above). I formatted this section 09DEC12 to maintain continuity, after Xxanthippe placed the comments here (after dismissing them, quite presumptuously, as an "impertinence"). --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:47, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I remove the missive below from my talk page and put it where it belongs. Xxanthippe (talk) 03:42, 9 December 2012 (UTC).[reply]

Pursuant to WP:HTRIVIA and WP:IPC, I have chosen to remove again the insignificant/unimportant/non-notable cultural mentions that were readded by you earlier this evening. Please refrain from adding such trivia unless it were to indicate some relevant and salient materials necessary for informing the reader about Traherne's life and works or an interpretation of his works. Just saying that Traherne or a line of his poetry was mentioned in insignificant places does not edify and is not notable, rendering inclusion rather meritless and puerile. --ColonelHenry (talk) 02:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have put the references to Traherne in popular culture back into the article. They were put in by early editors, removed by ColonelHenry, replaced by me, and removed again by Henry. Such references are encouraged by Wikipedia:In popular culture, and for Traherne they will be of interest to literary and cultural historians who trace how appreciation of his work made the transition from antiquarians and scholars in 1900 into high culture in the 1930s (Huxley'sTexts and Pretexts of 1932 is the earliest known to me but there may be others, and Finzi) and then finally to the popular culture of today. Since the process has taken place in the last century sources for such a study will be ample. The views of other editors on this matter will be useful. Xxanthippe (talk) 09:45, 10 December 2012 (UTC).[reply]

I agree with ColonelHenry's view on this matter, but the edit-warring in the article itself should stop until some sort of consensus is reached here. I disagree that "such references are encouraged by Wikipedia:In popular culture" (an essay that carries little, if any, weight), since the section in the article was clearly what the essay calls "indiscriminate". If someone wants to write a sourced prose passage on Traherne's reception in the wider culture, they should post it on this page, and only if it gains consensus should it be added to the article. Deor (talk) 11:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Deor. I have no objection to Xxanthippe readding the material IF (and only if) he/she can establish how these trivia are relevant/salient in understanding Traherne's work or life. However, I do not see these as anything other than useless references that don't add anything to any understanding of Traherne. Therefore, their opportunity to add anything of merit to the article is rather improbable. --ColonelHenry (talk) 12:33, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quotations section

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I am also inclined to remove the "Quotations" section since we do have a wikiquote article, and if they are salient to mention vis-a-vis any discussion of legacy/analysis of his works, I will likely incorporate them there in the relevant section. --ColonelHenry (talk) 12:33, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The quotations are valuable as they give the passing reader a flavor of Traherne's unique style. The argument that material should not be included in an encyclopedia if it is available elsewhere is not tenable as it would imply that encyclopedias, which are compilations of such material, should never be written. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC).[reply]
  • Then why even bother having "wikiquote"? More apt, why bother directing people to wikiquote? The quotes herewith shouldn't just be left there as bullet-point list of quotes, they should be analyzed if possible to explain how they are relevant to themes and motifs in Traherne's works and thought and put in an appropriate analysis section. If they were incorporated into an analysis/interpretation section, that is where they would be best appropriate and able to edify. Consider the following: (1) As per the essay WP:QUOTE/WP:QUOTEFARM, Quotations that can't be justified for use in an article directly may be placed in Wikiquote and a Wikiquote template put on the article to inform readers that there are relevant quotations regarding the subject. (2) Do not insert any number of quotations in a stand-alone quote section. This is relevant here, as a quotation section in an article serves no purpose that is not redundant to or better served by Wikiquote. As such, a pretty turn of phrase--in this case several quotes in their own section--is best left to wikiquote. To think otherwise, in your words, would be "impertinent." --ColonelHenry (talk) 03:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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Extended content
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This review is transcluded from Talk:Thomas Traherne/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Michael! (talk · contribs) 11:14, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there! I'll review this article. Michael! (talk) 11:14, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First GA review

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Please also have a look at the Wikipedia articles of other, contemporaneous English poets, like Henry Vaughan or John Milton. None of these is a GA, but you might get some ideas how to improve this article. Michael! (talk) 13:10, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Henry Vaughan, which is on my to-do list of future projects, is hardly an exemplary article to compare in this instance. It is sorely lacking and badly organised.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:40, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I didn't mean these are good articles. However, you might get good ideas from looking at what is wrong in bad articles. Michael! (talk) 09:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Problems and suggestions

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  • This article is about a writer and poet. Although a list of his works is prominently included, none of his works is discussed, nor are there any links or hyper-references to (Wikipedia) articles on his books. The "Works" section is nothing more than a list of titles. What are his books, poems and stories about? I don't know and I don't learn this when I read this article. As long as his works aren't discussed (either in this article, or, even better, in new Wikipedia articles, one per title), the most important information is missing. Therefore, I can't rate this article as a GA. In my opinion, something like this would be the bare minimum.
  • Are you sure you read this article before posting your review? There is significant discussion of his works in the article beyond a mere "list" as you incorrectly allege. Because each of Traherne's works does not have an individual article in no way impinges upon this article's eligibility for GA status. That's a specious concern. But I think 2/3rds of the Traherne article is spent analyzing his works, the history of those works, etc. If you missed that large block of text, I seriously have to question your ability to review articles.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:14, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further, I cannot use the Milton style list to which you direct my attention because of the nature of Traherne's publication history. Most of Traherne's works come to us not as original works published during his lifetime (as was the case with Milton) but in editions published long after his death after sporadic rediscoveries...I think your comment evinces that you did not read large swaths of the article carefully.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:40, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I chose to discuss his works in relation to larger themes instead of separately--as his themes cross several of his works and it was a more efficient way of discussing them. Your objection seems to be one that disagrees with my style of approach and not one focused on content. Considering the broad discussion of his themes vis-a-vis his works, this should not be grounds for a GA denial.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Certainly, his works/oeuvre as a whole is discussed in detail throughout the article, but this is more thematically. What is missing is factual, bibliographic information about each of his works in the "Works" section. There is some information in the "Publication history and posthumous success" subsection, but most of his works aren't discussed here.Michael! (talk) 09:20, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • For instance, take Roman Forgeries, .... What kind of text is it? Is it a poem (if so, epic, a ballad, lyric, etc.)? Is it a novel? An essay? If it is a drama, is it a tragedy, comedy, history? Is written as a dialogue? How long is the text, what is its size? Is it written in English, Latin, another language, a specific dialect? Is anything known about the circumstances how it is written? Could you describe the main characters (if any) in a few words or sentences? If only one manuscript survived, where is it currently located? Is it complete or are there any parts missing? In case there are multiple manuscripts, is the text basically the same, or are there large differences between them? Michael! (talk) 09:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This kind of information is missing for most of his works. It should be added, and either be discussed in this article in the Works/bibliography section, each title separately, or, like is done in Milton's article, by turning each title into a hyper-reference/wikilink to a new article about the work, where anybody could find such information.Michael! (talk) 09:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • An article about Homer that discusses the Illiad and the Odyssey in great detail, but fails to inform us those works are epic poems, written in hexameters, in the so-called Homeric dialect of the (ancient) Greek language, and doesn't inform us that those works are probably about events in the twelfth century BC, created in the eight century BC by Homer, but written down in Athens in the sixth century BC, such an article about Homer wouldn't be a good article, in my opinion. However, if there are clear, direct links to articles which do give this information, than it isn't a problem.Michael! (talk) 09:40, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That level of detail, IMHO, smacks up against WP:SUMMARY and if it belongs anywhere, it will be in articles on each of the individual works--and that lacking of such related articles on Wikipedia is not and should not be reflective of the GA-eligibility of a Traherne article. That level of detail you're demanding is far beyond mere encyclopaedic summary. Per WP:SUMMARY: (1) The length of a given Wikipedia article tends to grow as people add information to it. This does not go on forever: very long articles would cause problems and should be split. (2) A fuller treatment of any major subtopic should go in a separate article of its own. (3) This style of organizing articles is somewhat related to news style except that it focuses on topics instead of articles. The idea is to summarize and distribute information across related articles in a way that can serve readers who want varying amounts of details, thus giving readers the ability to zoom to the level of details they need and not exhausting those who need a primer on a whole topic. Refer to WP:DETAIL, which recommends "a lot of details on one or more aspects of the topic" ought to link to full-sized separate articles. I think it is far more efficient to get into a discussion of general themes across an ouevre than to use your word "clutter" the main article with discussions of page counts and individual characters and minutiae. And if you wanted to know about characters in Roman Forgeries, while discussing the themes you might have reread the "Theology and ethics" section--but that you ask the question seriously makes me wonder if you read it at all. Lastly, GA requires that an article be broad in its scope by "addressing the main aspects of a topic" (which IMHO a larger thematic discussion of all of his works meets)...GA criteria does not demand book length treatments, and especially, per WP:WIAGA when policy discusses "broad" it qualifies it with criteria 3b: the article stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail A detailed bibliographic treatment of Roman Forgeries, and other works on the level you're demanding would be unnecessary details cluttering up the larger article of the work's author. Sure an article on Homer should mention the Iliad being in hexameters because that is undeniably its form. However, getting into excessive detail with Traherne would be prohibitively huge (WP:LENGTH) because of the variations in forms, influences, minute details, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum. It's also easier to offer such detail on Homer when Homer's oeuvre is two works while Traherne's reaches 3,000 pages. We have to keep in scope what "addressing main topics" means vis-a-vis unnecessary detail. And what you're asking, is demands unnecessary detail. After all, we don't discuss at that level of detail on the main T.S. Eliot article the various extent that Eliot employs Dante's terza rima in the Four Quartets, or the fact that each of the four poems are approximately 400-500 lines, or the details on why he wrote it, etc. etc., or the various discoveries and characters met along the way during the Dantesque passage starting "in the uncertain hours before the morning" in...that information belongs at Little Gidding (poem), which is briefly (emphasis: BRIEFLY) discussed/summarized at Eliot and Little Gidding (about the religious community inspiring its themes). And it is rather premature to start creating redlinks linking the titles of his works for separate articles because, per WP:RED, I doubt such articles will be written anytime soon. Lastly, I think such loosely relevant detail here will verge to close to violating policies on original research, and possibly WP:FORUM, WP:NOTTEXTBOOK, WP:INDISCRIMINATE. I seriously suggest that you need to realize the scope of GA and read more policy before you start demanding such extreme rigor with GA nominees.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:14, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You don't have to be upset. It seems you've misunderstood my point and I failed to clarify it correctly. What I said in my first remark, is that information about his works (I meant bibliographic information, context, what kind of literature are those books?) is missing in the Works section.
In the second paragraph of the lead stands "His prose works ... include ..." and "His poetry was ...". The lead should be a summary. Everything in the lead should be discussed in more detail in the article. Where would you look for more information on his prose and poems first? In the Works section. Looking there, we learn that most of his works were either published posthumously in the 20th C or are still unpublished. This information is followed by a list of his publications and a list of compilations and editions. However, just looking at the Works section didn't give me any information what kind of literature each of those books are.
That's also why I gave that reference Milton. Although that article isn't a GA, you can see at one glance what kind of literature each of those works is. For more information, you can click on the title and read more information in a special article about that work, but that isn't required for a GA status.
So what is missing, from my point of view, is a brief description of each of those titles, but in the Works section. Keep it short but informative. "Roman forgeries: a polemic in the form of a dialogue" is minimal, but sufficient (just like "the Iliad is a epic Greek poem, written in hexameters" would be). More information, like I suggested in my previous remark, is certainly welcome, but not necessary.
  • And I do not think this is necessary, and given criteria 3b, I do not see a need to address this any further and assert that doing as you wish would give the article the "clutter" that you've lamented elsewhere. Given the length of titles, it would be clutter. If it is necessary, then someone should write about it at length in a separate article per WP:DETAIL.--ColonelHenry (talk) 16:56, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You can't expect any visitor to read the article completely. Most people jump in and just look at the section where they think they can find the desired information. Bibliographic information on his works should be in the "Works" section.
Michael! (talk) 16:07, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
PS: "you need to realize the scope of GA". Yes, you're right. That's why I asked for a second opinion even before our discussion/disagreement started and before I finished my review.
I'm sorry if you don't like me reviewing it. Everybody has his own style of writing, and his own style of reviewing. Please don't take anything personal. I didn't notice at first I was also reviewing another article nominated by you - I discovered it only when I already had started to review this article. Nevertheless, I hope a second reviewer could provide some help, since this review is becoming quite ... "cluttered".Michael! (talk) 19:20, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not taking it personally. I am just considerably frustrated by your review that seems to wants the article to be something its not. This article is simply a biography of Traherne: a humble priest almost lost to the dustbin of history, discussing his small bit of importance among a vast sea of knowledge, offering a list of his works and their unique hard-fought path to publication and rediscovery, giving a discussion analyzing the broad themes and influences in his oeuvre. If you want detailed information on each of Traherne's works, it's not appropriate here. Per policy, as referenced above, that detailed material would be better served if someone were to write separate articles on Traherne's works. While I respect your opinions and suggestions (and have addressed roughly half of them), if they run contrary to my understanding of the GA criteria and relevant policies/guidelines I am going to strenuously disagree (as is my right).--ColonelHenry (talk) 21:34, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry, no hard feelings. It is your right to disagree and I don't have any problems with that. I suggest we leave this increasingly frustrating discussion as it is and wait for a proper second opinion.

Meanwhile, I'm willing to give this review a fresh start and make remarks on issues I didn't address before, but only if you don't have objections to it. If you prefer me to be silent while waiting on a second opinion, that's perfectly fine to me. Michael! (talk) 11:49, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PPS: WP:ORDER advises to put a list of publications at the bottom of an article. I didn't point this out before, simply because I considered it unimportant. However, since you seem to be so fond of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, I suggest you to keep the Works section where it is right now and separate the Bibliography list from it to put that at the bottom of the article, just above "See also".
  • Only the Bibliography list itself should be at the bottom of the article, immediately above "See also". The text - including the subsection "Publication history and posthumous success" should stay where it was, in the article itself, separated from the list below. Michael! (talk) 19:20, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
PPPS: WP:5P: Wikipedia has policies and guidelines, but they are not carved in stone
  • "Pantheism and Panentheism" should be worked out. It isn't clear why this paragraph has this specific title
  • "Veneration by the Anglican Church": please expand this subsection as well. I'm confident there's more information available.

GA criteria

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  1. Well-written:
    1. the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct; seems okay
    2. it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. seems okay
  2. Verifiable with no original research: seems okay
    1. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline; passed
    2. it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines; passed
    3. it contains no original research. passed
  3. Broad in its coverage:
    1. it addresses the main aspects of the topic; some disagreement
    2. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). seems okay
  4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each. passed
  5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. passed
  6. Illustrated, if possible, by images: passed, but more images are welcome
    1. images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; passed
    2. images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. passed

Conclusion

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Thinking about it again, I can't pass this article as a GA right now. Furthermore, I would like to have a second opinion. Michael! (talk) 14:14, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Second opinion needed

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Another shortcoming of the article is that it fails to give the reader a taste of Traherne's idiosyncratic prose style. A number of illuminating quotations from his work were removed by an editor with insistent opinions who has made major changes to the article. I think that the current article reads more like a routine academic paper (inreach) than an article for an encyclopedia (outreach). Xxanthippe (talk) 22:18, 13 March 2013 (UTC).[reply]

  • Are you still bitter from those days long ago when you surmised that I "impertinently" removed a bulletpoint/dumping-ground list of uninterpreted quotations per WP:QUOTE/WP:QUOTEFARM and put them where they belonged on Wikiquote? --ColonelHenry (talk) 23:29, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • And Xxanthippe, in case you didn't actually read the article (seems to be a trend), I incorporated two of those quotations (as I said in early discussions I would if it would be relevant upon revision) in the section marked "Theology and ethics."--ColonelHenry (talk) 23:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The quotes you give relate to Traherne's spiritual musings about himself and his own soul. Worthy though they are, what he is best known for is his vision of God manifested in nature and humanity. You have removes these quotes. Traherne's approach to these matters sometimes causes unease among the theologically orthodox as it points in the direction of pantheism, but it is what Traherne is famous for. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:38, 14 March 2013 (UTC).[reply]
  • True. But the other quotes that were previously in prior versions of the article were in a unincorporated list, a "quote farm" as were other lists of unenlightening popular culture references which you also objected to removing (despite WP:IPC). If there were to be a way to incorporate that material in a way that edified or elucidated something about Traherne's life and vision, and that interpretation was supported by sources (yes, this is key), I would never have any objection to adding such material. However, despite my best efforts, there was no supportable way to incorporate it. And the interpretation you're seeking, without sources, is original research, and at its worst, rather unencyclopedic. Given this, Wikiquote is the best place for that previously-removed material. I explained this then, and I explain it now. Nothing has changed and you've offered nothing more to that discussion besides revoicing already refuted objections. --ColonelHenry (talk) 01:48, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Could anybody invest some time here in providing a second opinion? Thank you in advance! Michael! (talk) 19:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

An "In popular culture" section would be interesting. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC).[reply]

Perhaps, I can't say, although I don't think it's extremely important.
Xxanthippe, if you're willing to provide a proper and complete review and a neutral second opinion, than I would be happy to welcome you here. However, if you only want to return to issues which seem to have been solved in the past, than I hope a more neutral, uninvolved person could provide a second opinion as well.
Of course, never hesitate to make helpful suggestions.
Michael! (talk) 11:57, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is a bit bitey (not that I am a newcomer). You asked for suggestions and I gave you some. The issue of theological orthodoxy has had some exposure before and is not resolved one way or another. The quotations were removed unilaterally. I asked above why quotations with a certain theological POV were retained in the article while quotations of a different theological POV were removed. The "In popular culture" items were supported by the editors who put them there and by myself and opposed by two other editors. I think that the issue is moot and not yet "solved", as you put it. On none of these matters is there a clear consensus. Xxanthippe (talk) 10:54, 16 March 2013 (UTC).[reply]
Sorry, I didn't want to insult you. I apologize if I looked "bitey". I do appreciate your comments and suggestions and understand you ask those questions. However, I was also looking for a careful second opinion to resolve the discussion ColonelHenry and I had on a few points. Maybe one of the several outside "second" reviewers could have a look at the points you've raised?Michael! (talk) 12:30, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Xxanthippe, you get your own opinions, you don't get your own facts. (1) We NEVER got into a discussion about theological orthodoxy or POV. (2) No one else commented to protest when I removed the material but you. None of the "other editors" ever showed up to contest the removal. The only editor who commented was User:Deor who agreed with my assessment. So please, blatant dishonesty like that exhibited in your recent statement isn't only a logical fallacy, it's just morally despicable.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:29, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"blatant dishonesty", "morally despicable". Strong stuff from an editor with a record of warnings for personal attacks [1] [2], but Wikipedia editors are expected to put up with such. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:14, 16 March 2013 (UTC).[reply]
  • True, and as long as you remain harmless and not disruptive, there shouldn't be a problem. However, dishonest accounts of events that are easily refuted by the record offer nothing to the conversation. If you have nothing to offer the discussion that leads to progress, it is no excuse for disingenuously conjuring up past grudges and expecting people to take them seriously.--ColonelHenry (talk) 23:25, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Outside opinion

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I haven't read this article in detail for the other GA criteria, but if the only hold-up here is that it includes no summary of each of his published works, I would say that this is not a significant issue for GA, which only asks that "broad aspects" be covered. If a specific, major work is not discussed in the article, that would fall under "broad aspects", but that doesn't appear to be the issue here; so far as I understand Michael's concerns, it seems like a simple formatting concern (whether Roman Forgeries is discussed under the header "Theology and ethics" or "Works"), and therefore not a concern for the GA criteria under my understanding.

To compare some random Featured Articles (a far higher standard), like Chinua Achebe, Mario Vargas Llosa, and George Moore (novelist), they don't have anywhere near the level of detail that's being asked for here in their "Works" sections, either in textual information or in wikilinks for each work.

Just my two cents, and all this comes with the disclaimer that I'm no Traherne expert. But since an outside opinion was requested, I thought I'd offer one. Thanks to both editors and reviewer for your work on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 03:28, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Concur with the above two editors if a fourth opinion is wanted. Thanks for taking the time to review this Michael. I think you can safely pass it if that is the only real concern you had. BTW which Council of Nicaea is being reffered to? Is it both? AIRcorn (talk) 05:56, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for your four outside opinions!
There were three points I wanted to have a second opinion on:
  • Whether or not there should be bibliographic information in the "Works" section.
  • The structure/ordering/arrangement of the article. (A clarification of my view can be found here.)
  • The expansion of the "Veneration by the Anglican Church" section.
I still have to look at some other things before I'll pass this article as a GA. For instance, I didn't have time to check all of the notes and references yet. I'll start a new section below to continue the reviewing process. But thanks again for all your second opinions! Michael! (talk) 11:23, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Second GA review

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This is a restart of the first GA review (above).

There were several points of disagreement which needed a careful second opinion. Now I can continue with the reviewing process in this fresh, new section and make remarks on things I couldn't address before. Michael! (talk) 11:49, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikilinking

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  • Most subjects in the infobox at the right are wikilinked, except for "metaphysical poetry", "meditations", and "theology". You might want to think about it again.
  • "Master of Arts" is wikilinked, but "baccalaureate degree" and "Bachelor of Divinity" aren't.
  • "Oxford", since other geographical places are links as well, just like "English".
  • "(Ambella, Countess Dowager of) Kent" might get one or more links as well.
County of Kent doesn't seem relevant - leave it as it is.
  • "English Civil War", " Lord Protector ", "Commonwealth".
Linking to the Interregnum looks like a better alternative (I don't have any problems with "Monarchist leanings" (by the way "it's" or "its"?)). It might even be better to replace (unlinked) Commonwealth completely with Interregnum, since Interregnum is a technically correct and clear name for that short period in history - besides, it won't ever be confused with the modern Commonwealth of Nations, as could happen with Commonwealth. I'll think about it and return to it tomorrow. Michael! (talk) 19:09, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done - its was a typo. tends to happen...muscle memory in typing. even though it had been 350 years, I didn't want to start a POV fight between the Monarchists and the Cromwell Republicans. ;-) --ColonelHenry (talk) 19:29, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your "it's" nearly made me question my own knowledge of the English language - could I have been using it incorrectly for all those years? As for Interregnum, I don't think war will recommence/break out because of that single word. But if you think Commonwealth would be better to avoid any future conflict, then feel free to use that word.Michael! (talk) 19:38, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I notice, in addition to it's/its, typing "and" when I want "an" just because of "muscle memory." As an American of royalist leanings (much like T.S.Eliot), upon checking into the usage of "Commonwealth" prefer the innocuous but very slightly POV advantage of "Interregnum"...since after all, with an unfortunate execution and a little more bloodshed, the monarchists did win. Thank God neither of us expect a POV fight like the seemingly never-ending Gdansk-Danzig disputes. ;-) --ColonelHenry (talk) 19:51, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hereford Cathedral" (caption of first image).
  • "London"
  • "Commissioners for the Approbation of Public Preachers" - I have to check if there are any suitable wikilinks.
  • "Elizabethan" and "Jacobean literature"
I was redirected to Jacobean_Literature#Jacobean_literature_(1603-25), but your idea is probably better.
Yes, I noticed I ended up in the "English Literature" article.
  • "Catholicism"
  • "Protestant" as well. ("Roman Catholic church") can be unlinked. I agree with you on the name of that article, but that's something we can't change. You can link to "RCC", which will redirect you to exactly the same article.
  • To avoid redirects, per MOS, linked as [[Catholic Church|Roman Catholicism]].
  •  Done RCC unlinked.
  •  Done Protestant.
  • "Hermetic" and "Cabalistic" and "Rosicrucian lore", "necromancy".
Okay.

Several remarks

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No problem.Michael! (talk) 18:49, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since most of the titles in the "Later compilations and editions" section are relatively new books, it would be nice if you could also give ISBN numbers - although this isn't necessary.Michael! (talk) 12:17, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't important or necessary, but a short reference to something would be nice - to a newspaper, a book review, a prospectus, the publisher, the series editor, anything - it just have to say "this is the series going to be/it'll contain these volumes/titles". I don't have a good example right now. Besides, this is a minor remark which you can ignore.Michael! (talk) 18:49, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Great! That's what I was looking for.Michael! (talk) 19:50, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you have a critical look at the lead section yourself? It is quite good right now, but there are several things that could be rewritten. For instance, the lead starts with "TT ... is a poet, clergyman, " etc., while the second paragraph starts with "Venerated as a saint", but continues with giving a very brief overview of his works.Michael! (talk) 12:17, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Looks better. Michael! (talk) 18:49, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Explanation: While it looks odd for an English name, it is not a typo (see also Thomas à Becket, Thomas à Kempis). It is the more used form of his name in literature/scholarship/histories, and the last vestiges of French influence on English culture before the language and the class structure became "modern".--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:35, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Just checking. Michael! (talk) 18:49, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Saying "little is known" would be comprehended idiomatically but not correct grammatically...as "little" is an adjective, not a noun. Removing "information" would remove the subject of the sentence that "little" serves to describe.--ColonelHenry (talk) 20:14, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can't "little" be a shorthand for "little information"? Just like "Not much is known" instead of "Not many things are known"? Or is this grammatically incorrect as well? - This is the second time tonight I'm questioning my own understanding of English.Michael! (talk) 20:25, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shorthand, yes...but it's still an ungrammatical and informal idiom because the subject of the sentence is lost. Although, idiomatically, English permits a little bit of subject dropping because the influence of Romance languages on its syntax and construction, in its proper form English is not a null-subject language. The alternative of "things" is vague and most style guides eschew its usage.--ColonelHenry (talk) 20:56, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Then I think it's my own knowledge of other languages which made me think grammatically incorrect English is sometimes correct. "Not many things" wasn't a serious suggestion ("things" is ugly and vague, I agree), I mentioned it to check if I understood your point on grammar.
  • Both "Catholic Church" and "Catholic church" are used, which isn't wrong, but is inconsistent. I can imagine something comparable happened with Anglican Church/Church in/of England, but I didn't/won't check.

More will follow.

PS: This reviewing page is already larger than the article itself.

More remarks

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  • According to MOS:BIO#Tense, biographies of deceased persons should generally be written in the past tense. However, I don't have any problems with the present tense, so I won't check this. Besides, the article seems to be consistently written in the past tense, as is advised.
  • Spelling is something else I won't check - each his own. I prefer the Oxford spelling (which is different to both American and British), hence I write "centre", "harbour", "itemize", etc and dislikes "analyze" - but I'm too lazy to check my own writings for consistency. (By the way, "rigor" and "rigour" are two different nouns.)
  • I prefer it too, and often experience the same problem. I did have a British user copyedit the article to reflect British English usage (since Traherne was a Brit) so I think generally it follows a similar guidelines. I prefer the British rendering of "itemise" though--Z is a rather vulgar and overused consonant by the Yanks. --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:39, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
ODE uses -ize and -yse because they're derived from Ancient Greek -ιζειν and λύω (although via Latin and French). I like etymology and therefore prefer the Oxford spelling. (Likewise, I use Colosseum and distaste Coliseum).
  • The last title of the "Further reading" subsection is the only book with a non-bluelinked ISBN.
  • "This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). "Thomas Traherne". Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press." Yes, it is frequently used as reference [6]. However, is this sentence listed above the notes relevant, I mean, don't you say the same thing twice?
  • Comment: I think the template was placed in the article when large chunks of text were taken verbatim from the 1911 Britannica. I've edited and revised most of that out, but there are still a few sentences and concepts that remain sewn into the the text, so I thought keeping the template was appropriate. While I do reference it in footnotes for direct quotes, I think that the general spirit of Britannica that remains warrants keeping the template.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:39, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • One of the square brackets in the last note ([41]) might be wrongly positioned, please check.
  • According to the catalogue of my university library, "The Poetical Works of Thomas Traherne 1636?-1674 (edited by Bertram Dobell)" was published in 1906 (not 1903). I requested the book to check and should be able to answer this on Tuesday at the latest. - Problem solved: the 1906 version (from my UB) is the second edition. You've probably used the first edition. - Edit: the 1903 version is used in the Bibliography and notes [3], [7] and [8], the 1906 version in [24].
  • There's also a review of the 1932 edition by Geoffrey Tillotson in

The Modern Language Review, 1933, Vol.28(3), pp.386-387 [Peer Reviewed Journal], which can be accessed via JSTOR.

  • Reference [2] can be found here: [3]
  • Reference [25]: year of publication seems to be missing
  • Although I didn't check all of the references, I checked many of them and didn't encounter any serious problems. I'll probably pass this article as a GA today.
  • Thank you.

Michael! (talk) 12:09, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Article structure

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I like the article structure ideas proffered on your userspace, and will move up the publication history section. I still am unsure, per the above, about the necessity. I will add an introductory paragraph or two for such a section, but I don't think it's going to be as exacting as you want it to be and as the second opinion contributors have said is not necessary.

As a personal preference, I tend to disagree with Further Reading as a level 2, I believe that should be part of a larger notes/reference/citations/biblio section as a level 3, and dislike the aesthetic of it being a separate section.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:52, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I chose "life and time" because three of the four are published posthumuously and are not during his "lifetime."--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I realized some where published posthumously, but "life and time" looks ... strange. What about "during his life or shortly after"?Michael! (talk) 19:25, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The alternative you suggest would be rather cumbersome and lengthy...especially as a section title. I would assert that the goal would be concision--something more succinct but of the same meaning as "life and time". I can't think of one.--ColonelHenry (talk) 19:41, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Added a few photos of things relevant to his life because there aren't any portraits of TT. Trying to find a free image of St Mary's, Credenhill.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:35, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! I'm impressed! You did more than I was expecting. Changing the article structure wasn't necessary for passing it as a GA - per the second opinions given above - but the article definitely looks much, much better than before. The colourful images make the article look more attractive as well. Although this is my first impression and I still have to take a better look at many things, it certainly seems to be a good article to me. Thanks again! Michael! (talk) 18:38, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Final conclusion

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All issues seems to be addressed, the article has been improved a lot and I'm confident it meets all of the GA criteria. Therefore, it is passed as a GA and already listed at the appropriate section.  Done

A special thanks to all those who gave a second opinion, which certainly helped.

ColonelHenry, thank you. Not only for your major contributions and nomination of this article, for your quick replies and comments, but especially for your willingness to continue with the reviewing process and have a second look at things you initially disagreed with. Although time consuming, this review was certainly satisfying and productive. Thanks again!

Michael! (talk) 16:42, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Baccalaureate degree

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I just deleted two references to Traherne's 'Baccalaureate' degree, assuming this was a mistake and that the original author actually meant to write 'bachelor's degree'. But on looking the former word up in the dictionary, I find that the terms are actually synonymous, which I was not aware of before. Anyway, I think it would be better to use 'bachelor's degree', as that term is more widely used in modern English, with 'baccalaureate' being normally being used to refer to something quite different. Celuici (talk) 20:56, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Bachelor's" is what modern people--typically Americans lacking erudition or much knowledge on historical usage--insist upon completely ignoring the nuances of the two terms. When Traherne was alive, "baccalaureate" was (and still is) appropriate in this usage and more precise, and in keeping with British English (if you notice the article as a "Use British English" template on it). Reverting. Next time, ask before jumping to erroneous "assumptions".--ColonelHenry (talk) 21:11, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The small number of quotations in the OED suggest that 'degree of baccalaureate' or simply 'a baccalaureate' would better reflect early modern usage, with the compound forms along the lines of 'baccalaureate X' (sermon, degree) occuring much later. The OED also has 'bachelor(s)' as a much older term, with baccalaureate being a Latinised derivation from it. Issues of questionable historical precision aside, using a Latinate archaicism with multiple contemporary meanings instead of a widely-understood English term is poor usage. Celuici (talk) 01:14, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hoax editing

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This article has been heavily edited by User:ColonelHenry. The article was subsequently determined to be a WP:Good article by an editor who ensured that its structure and syntax were adequate but who did not appear to have much knowledge of its subject matter. User:ColonelHenry has recently been community banned from Wikipedia after having been found to have engaged in sock puppetry, vandalism and the creation of hoax and false articles on an industrial scale.[4] [[5]] One administrator described his conduct as "high treason". It is not clear how much of the content ColonelHenry added to this article is false. Rather than check each of his additions by going back to the sources, I have reverted the article to the version of 21 Oct 2012 before he started to edit. Some good edits may have been lost but that is better than having a suspicion of fraud. Comments are welcome. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:32, 30 April 2014 (UTC).[reply]

There's a cleanup in process, please wait. I looked at several articles and found no problem. If you have particular points that appear dubious please question those here. I will revert to the version that was reviewed as a Good Article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:46, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Readers are warned that the version reverted to above may contain corrupt material. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:28, 20 May 2014 (UTC).[reply]
Absent specific concerns, the fact that an article was edited by a now-banned editor does not automatically mean the article has problems. I think it is critical for people to simply review the article and the source material and then specifically flag or fix any problems found. Slapping on a random "unbalanced" tag makes even less sense if the actual concern is inaccuracy. Montanabw(talk) 23:06, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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Traherne's political affiliation between 1649 and 1660

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I have deleted one sentence on the grounds that, as written, it is contradictory. If Dobell, who I've not read, thought the father of Thomas was John, why did he think the father was also Philip (no need for silly doubling of final consonant)? Why should the political views of the father, whoever he was, be reproduced in the son? Thomas, it is abundantly clear, could think for himself. Clifford Mill (talk) 12:33, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Have now deleted rest of paragraph, which does not stand up to scrutiny and is probably wrong. Clifford Mill (talk) 09:22, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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