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Talk:Vallabhbhai Patel/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Somnath Temple

Is the discussion of Somnath Temple relevant to the article. Even if it were, I feel its not worthy of inclusion per "Summary Style". -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 18:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the info on Somnath temple does not need to be added to the article in such detail.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Somnath Temple Monument of Caste system in India.

Many political leaders were interested to construct the Somnath Temple by Government. Since India was Democratic and Republic a new idea by MK Gandhi, Vallabh Bhai Patel, KM Munshi and Rajendra Prasd was created and with the help of citizens (actually citizens elect the Member of Parliament and Assemblies) Somnath Temple constructed. This is the monument of Caste system prevailing in Indian subcontinent for last 3000 years. For last 10-20 days we read many articles in News Papers for reservation and as long as religion and caste system are there reservation will not end. Caste system is the main hurdel for scientific progress eradication of poverty of 1000 millions.
Founding Fathers of constitution were in blind faith that within 10 years, India will became Democratic and Republic and after so many years still we talk about reservation.
I request the readers of this discussion to give their opinion. Regards vkvora 19:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Even if what you say is correct, there are two issues. That "Somnath Temple is a Monument of Caste system in India" qualifies as Original Research and hence unless quoted by reliable sources is not worthy of inclusion. Secondly, it doesn't belong here. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 19:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Details of Somnath temple does not need to be here in this article on patel. That may be added to the article on Somnath temple with adequate citation/references. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
From vkvora to Ambuj Saxena and Dwai Payan
I have noted the content. I surprise that not a single word of somnath temple is mentioned on the article of Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel on Wikipedia. vkvora 03:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
You are welcome to add the info, but not a whole paragraph please, not as a subsection. --Dwaipayan (talk) 04:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the way you have added info in Somnath Temple is perfectly fine. However I doubt whether such details are required in this article. It can be mentioned in this article also, but not a whole paragraph. A couple of sentences should be fine. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 05:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

CONGRATS

Congrats Rama and everyone! It's featured now.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Congrats on the good work Lost 06:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Congrats all. Especially Nirav. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 06:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

First image in lead section..

..has Sardar staring out into space at nothing. According to the MoS on images, people should be facing *into* the page - focusing the readers attention on the text, not on the browsers right-hand scroll bar. This could be fixed simply if someone can flip the image facing with an image editor. -- Stbalbach 03:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the picture should be looking into the text, but strictly speaking it may falsify the image some what if it were flipped around in space. It would be the same as printing it backwards. This may make his face appear slightly different, and would remove the background from it's orginal perspective. Another solution may be to put the picture to the left of the text, although this would make the page somewhat abnormal. Just my thoughts. Chooper 04:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Patel in Media

Already this article in FA, still, is it a good idea to have something about Sardar Patel in media? We can add his praise, movie, autobiographies etc in it.-- Anupamsr|talk |contribs  16:13, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

Vandalism is getting through despite reverts. Someone familiar with the article should check it. --Fang Aili talk 18:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of Sardar (1993 film). It is relevant to Sardar Patel and it is his portrayal by popular media, please add this section.Kaushal mehta 11:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not sure it is relevant to Patel, bearing in mind that this article is about the real him, not about fictional re-imaginings of him. The portrayal of Patel in popular media has no bearing on his life. A similar discussion took place at Elizabeth Báthory. If the posthumous media representations, especially fiction, regarding a historical figure are felt to be relevant, I agree with the conclusion at Elizabeth Báthory that it is appropriate that these be kept in a separate article. I suppose it may be helpful to mention one or two films in which he is represented, but no more than that, and I'm not at all sure that Sardar is the most appropriate reference for Wikipedia. -- TinaSparkle 01:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it is relevant. Please note that Mahatma Gandhi's article has a section on his portrayal by media, so has Nelson Mandela, Jawaharlal Nehru, Muhammed Ali Jinnah and Babasaheb Ambedkar. And I think they are more related to this historic personality than Elizabeth Báthory.Kaushal mehta 13:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

First image

I think the first image should be 300px.
Reasons
1. This picture is of better quality.
2. Presents him in a better light (i understand wikipedia is not an fan club, but still you should present an elder statesman in good light) --DuKot 23:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Changing images as there was no objection --DuKot 00:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Cabinet mission & partition: No sources

The entire section labele "Cabinet Mission & Partition" is grossly under sourced with many weasel words, peacock words, large amounts of quoted text outside of quote boxes - does anyone have sources for this entire section? Wozzi7 (talk) 17:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --RegentsPark (talk) 21:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel → Vallabhbhai Patel — Relist. --RegentsPark (talk) 21:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

There is no doubt that this person was popularly called "Sardar" and there is widespread use of both "Vallabhbhai Patel" and "Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel" as well as just "Sardar Patel". However, "Sardar" is an honorific and not part of his proper name, so the article should located at "Vallabhbhai Patel" in line with other Indian independence leaders e.g. Mahatma Gandhi (article at Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi), Pandit Nehru (article at Jawaharlal Nehru), and Maulana Azad (article at Abul Kalam Azad). Green Giant (talk) 04:37, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sardar is a word of Central Asian Origin and is widely used a a proper first name, used for chief of a tribe among Pashtuns, Turks and other ethnicities in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kurdistan, Turkey, Iran and other central Asians states including Caucasan languages of Dagestan and Chechnia etc.. It is also used in Urdu to refer to a head of traditionally organised system. To say it is a word of Indian languages is to be economic with the truth or show ignoranceignorance. I can see and understand the use by Sikhs given that they also borrowed Singh from from Rajput cheifs of Rajputana, Turban from Afghans and architecture for Gurdawara from Mosques due to the aims of unifying Muslims and Hindus but a Gujrati Hindu, particularly a strong nationalists at that, having the title is out of the ordinary therefore this should be explained as there must be a reason for it. It should be referred to as a word introduced into India by Muslims from the western borders of the South Asian Subcontinent. User Moarrikh 15:05, 11 April 2011. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moarrikh (talk • contribs)

Citations are messy

The citations in this article have become a bit of a mess. Does anyone object if I standardise the things in accordance with WP:CITEVAR? - Sitush (talk) 09:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Caste and native place

I have just removed the statements about Patel's caste and "native place", which were attributed to Rajmohan Gandhi's biography. I cannot see that source, the caste element was being changed by people and the "native place" bit needs clarification because it is often the case that "native place" is not the same as "birthplace" when it comes to Indian articles (instead, "native place" is the somewhat bizarre "ancestral village" idea). Please can we have a quotation from the source before this information is reinstated. - Sitush (talk) 06:10, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Image

I have added an image. Can someone improve it further. Thanking you.--Dr. Rajasekhar A. 06:55, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

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Requested move 15 April 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. The discussion before the relist was leaning against the move, and the discussion after has solidified this. There have been no additional comments in the last six days, so I am closing this now with a consensus against moving. (non-admin closure) TonyBallioni (talk) 17:35, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Vallabhbhai Patel → Sardar Vallabhai Patel – This page was moved to Vallabhai Patel per old title policy, which meant that no titles could be used at all. However, now it has changed, as shown on Mahatma Gandhi article where the title Mahatma is used. The old consensus was established showing that the article name was Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, but it is renamed as the policy has changed through consensus. Unable to find a single source thorugh a quick google search https://www.google.ae/search?q=vallabhai+patel&rlz=1CATAAB_enAE740AE740&oq=vallabhai+patel&aqs=chrome..69i57.3190j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 with the name Vallabhai Patel other than Wikipedia and its copies. Therfore, the name with the title Sardar is the commonly used name, and per WP:COMMONNAME the common name of the subject is to be used. The old policy has changed, and his name is almost always said using Sardar, even abroad India in USA. 2.51.20.209 (talk) 17:15, 15 April 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. Yashovardhan (talk) 17:42, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Ok, that's a mistake on my part, but the name Sardar Vallabhai Patel is almost always used with the title.31.215.113.82 (talk) 09:23, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Not so in reliable sources. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:10, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
I said almost always used like when I do a random search on Google (not going deeply) I don't come up with anything. I just stated Mahatma Gandhi as the old page move was conducted citing that as an example.31.215.113.82 (talk) 17:30, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merge

It would be better to merge Rashtriya Ekta Diwas into this article since there isn't enough content for a separate article. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 04:09, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

That is same with many other holidays such as Bal Diwas, that they don't have enough content, but still Rashtriya Ekta Diwas certainly has more notability and content than most of the stubs of Wikipedia and we can find good ways to expand the article in coming days. After this day (31 October) is over, these events will be summarized on the article. Capitals00 (talk) 06:42, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Jat descent

Regarding this edit, the source states that he was Leuva Patel Patidar of Central Gujarat, not that he was a Jat. The source adds that the Leuva Patel Patidar community is of Jat descent, but this is not certain: it's folk history.[1] Such claims may be mentioned in the articles about the community, but they are unnecessary and irrelevant here. utcursch | talk 15:30, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ David Francis Pocock (1972). Kanbi and Patidar: a study of the Patidar community of Gujarat. Clarendon Press. p. 158. ...we may also report a widespread folk history that today's Patidar originated from the Punjab from Jat stock.

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:01, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Merge

There is a request for a merge on this page. I can not find any discussion. I feel this needs to be sorted before a GA review can be done as it could impact the stability criteria. AIRcorn (talk) 21:14, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

See Talk:Vallabhbhai Patel/Archive 1#Merge Capankajsmilyo(Talk | Infobox assistance) 04:37, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
The archived page shouldn't be added to. Looking at the scarce participation of this merge non-discussion, and taking the additional prominence given to Patel because of the Statue of Unity into account, I'm going to close the merge request as a non-admin but someone who can see the writing on the wall (non-merge). Randy Kryn (talk) 04:11, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Vallabhbhai Patel/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Carabinieri (talk · contribs) 17:30, 22 June 2018 (UTC)


Hi, thanks for your work on this article. I haven't reviewed the article in-depth, but here are a few initial comments:

  • There are still some unsourced paragraphs.
  • Most of the "Statue of unity" section doesn't seem to be about Patel.
  • The "Other institutions and monuments" section is mostly unsourced and contains a strange item
  • Wikipedia is not a reliable source

I'll leave it at that for now, but will come back with more.--Carabinieri (talk) 02:09, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

@Capankajsmilyo: are you working on these? --Gian ❯❯ Talk 06:34, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
I made some changes, hope that helps. --Gian ❯❯ Talk 13:25, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Hi, thanks. I've start reviewing the article in more detail. I've only finished the lead and the first two sections. There are still some unsourced parts. I've marked some with the "citation needed" tag. I've done some copyediting. Please make sure I didn't mess anything up. I've also come across the following issues:
  • "Patel travelled to attend schools in Nadiad, Petlad, and Borsad, living self-sufficiently with other boys" What does "self-sufficiently" mean here? That he lived without his parents or that he was financially independent?
  • "Fetching his wife Jhaverba from his parents' home" The article doesn't mention him having married.
  • "while taking on the financial burdens of his homestead in Karamsad" I'm not sure what this means.
  • "He had made a pact with his brother Vithalbhai to support his entry into politics" Whose entry?
  • "While often clashing with British officials on civic issues" What is meant by "civic issues"?
  • "When the revolt was launched and tax revenue withheld, the government sent police and intimidation squads" What are "intimidation squads"? Vigilantes?
  • "even scaling back the rate" Does this mean after the year in which taxes were suspended?
  • At times, the article assumes assumes knowledge most readers may not have: Swarajist critics, satyagraha, dacoits, Borsul taluka...
  • "The revenue refusal was stronger than in Kheda" What does stronger mean here?
  • The article only says that Patel was arrested, but not what for.
  • "Patel's position at the highest level in the Congress was largely connected with his role from 1934 onwards (when the Congress abandoned its boycott of elections) in the party organisation" I don't understand this sentence.
  • Nor this: "he also determined the Congress's stance on issues and opponents"
  • The "On the outbreak of World War II, Patel..." is a little confusing. Who took what position exactly?
  • "the British had employed ruthless means of suppression" ruthless seems a little non-neutral.
That's it for now.--Carabinieri (talk) 02:16, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm going to close this review for lack of response. User:Capankajsmilyo, a considerable amount of work goes into reviewing articles and you may have noticed that there's a backlog at WP:GAN. It'd be nice if in the future you'd only nominate articles if you actually intend to follow up on reviewers' comments.--Carabinieri (talk) 16:13, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

"plumping for partition"

"He was criticised by Maulana Azad and others for readily plumping for partition." What does that mean? "Plumping" is a colloquial word for "deciding in favour of" [1], and doesn't belong in WP, in my opinion. But what is being said here? Does it mean that he was criticised simply for supporting partition? Or for supporting it (allegedly) without much thought? Or is it a quote from the source? Or something else...? Adpete (talk) 22:48, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

@Adpete: - I don't know what it means, but I agree that it's probably not appropriate. NickCT (talk) 14:44, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
I changed it from "plumping for" to "supporting". I think that preserves the meaning. Adpete (talk) 23:20, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Move to Sardar Patel? WP:COMMONNAME

I'm not well versed in Indian history, but from what I can see, it looks like this guy is refereed to more often as Sardar Patel than Vallabhbhai Patel. Per WP:COMMONNAME, should we rename this article? NickCT (talk) 14:43, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

From what I understand, 'Sardar' is a title given to him during the Indian independence movement. Loosely translated it means 'Leader'. Vallabhbhai Patel is his given name and still quite widely used. In my opinion the move should not be made. ArianaNaik (talk) 20:07, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Agree that Vallabhbhai is widely used, but whether or not 'Sardar' is a title shouldn't matter. There's a pretty obvious comparison with Mahatma Gandhi or Mother Teresa. Mother is a title and I think Mahatma is a title.
All that WP:COMMONNAME really cares about is the title/term/name by which someone is most commonly referred. I don't think it has a preference for given names. NickCT (talk) 12:22, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
You make a compelling argument. However; we will be on a slippery slope here because a lot, though not all, of Indian independence leaders have honorific titles attached to their names (I guess it was a widespread practice back then). So if we move this page we have to move most of those other pages too. IMHO if at all we move the page it should be moved to Sardar_Vallabhbhai_Patel because that's how most Indian history textbooks refer to him (I am assuming that that's how most Indians remember his name; through what they learnt in school). ArianaNaik (talk) 17:53, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
@ArianaNaik: - re " a lot, though not all, of Indian independence leaders have honorific titles " - Can you point to an example of a person who is most commonly referred to with an honorific but whose WP article does not include that honorific in the article title? NickCT (talk) 10:51, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Search results seems to be confirming that "Sardar Patel" is more WP:COMMONNAME. Raymond3023 (talk) 14:16, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
@NickCT: Vinayak_Damodar_Savarkar (Veer Savarkar), Vinoba_Bhave (Acharya Vinoba Bhave), Ram_Mohan_Roy (Raja Ram Mohan Roy), Bal_Gangadhar_Tilak (Lokmanya Tilak), Abul_Kalam_Azad (Maulana Azad) etc. These examples stretch from the far right to the liberal left of British India. I suppose a redirection would also suffice. For instance, Maulana Azad redirects to Abul Kalam Azad.
@Raymond3023: I wouldn't use online search results as a reliable metric at the moment because the Indian government recently unveiled a giant statue dedicated to Patel causing a major media pile up. Additionally, internet usage, and consequently the search results, reflect the viewpoint of English speakers who barely account for 12-20% of the total population. The fact is people really didn't talk about Patel outside of history classrooms until the current government decided to spend half a billion dollars to build a statue in his name.
@ArianaNaik: - You're right. There seem to be systemic WP:COMMONNAME issues for a lot of Indian historical figures. Your idea about the redirect is right, but you've got it the wrong way around. If "Maulana Azad" is more comman, then "Abul Kalam Azad" should redirect to "Maulana Azad". NickCT (talk) 13:46, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
After looking at this again. It's not clear to me that any of the examples pointed to above are truly ones where a proper name is being used in lieu of a shorter, more common name.
Doing a little search engine testing, I generally find the longer and shorter names get used with similar frequency.
For example;
"Bal Gangadhar Tilak" Indian independence - 325 hits
"Lokmanya Tilak" Indian independence - 328 hits
Doesn't seem as though there's a significant WP:COMMONNAME rationale to move. NickCT (talk) 14:57, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2018

Akujipatel (talk) 09:41, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 10:08, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

POV?

India was not guided into "integration into a united, independent nation". It broke into three parts.

the split came before he held office- Once in power he integrated hundreds of separate regimes into one united India. Rjensen (talk) 21:07, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

In India many kings and small small parts. He bring all one. He was great man. Iron man. Unity man. He make one. Thank u. Pandya101 (talk) 12:29, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

What kind of POV we are talking about here? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:56, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Flyind Sir I saying he not divide India he unite India. Pandya101 (talk) 13:02, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I also add ironman in page. Thank u. Pandya101 (talk) 13:07, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

@Pandya101: That 'Iron Man' nickname is already mentioned in the lead. No need of redundancy. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:01, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

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Requested move 14 September 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure) Bada Kaji (talk • श्रीमान् गम्भीर) 15:40, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Vallabhbhai Patel → Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel – correct name per WP:COMMONNAME, also per WP:NPOV, WP:TITLESINTITLES and MOS:HONORIFICs, proposed title comes under the exception provided under these policies, as it very rare to find reliable english sources qouting him without his honorific title. Uttarpradeshi (talk) 10:10, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

  • Strong oppose no evidence that neutral 3rd party history books add honorific. e.g. Concise Encyclopaedia of India K.R. Gupta & Amita Gupta · 2006 p1053 "He shifted to parliamentary democracy from confrontation and boycott which had been the policy of the party . For the next election , Vallabhbhai Patel was granted the membership of the Working Committee " etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:12, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 Comment:In ictu oculi How can you say that this author or book is NEUTRAL? Uttarpradeshi (talk) 18:23, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose Let's not beat around the bush, Sardar honorary titles given by M.K. Gandhi to him as a recognition for his exceptional organizational skills during the Bardoli Satyagraha. There are no concrete evidances that constitute the name Vallabhbhai Patel has Sardar linked since birth. Morover, if we go by the idea advocated by the nominator, several articles will have to be renamed as per honorific titles of Indian leaders; for instance, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Netaji Subhashchandra Bose, Lokmanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak, Gurudev Rabindranath Tagore and etc.--25 CENTS VICTORIOUS 🍁 12:36, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Sock comments stricken off — DaxServer (talk to me) 18:23, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gandhi's lieutenants

@APPU Could you explain how you reached the conclusion of One of Mahatma Gandhi's earliest lieutenants? Maybe I missed something. — DaxServer (talk to me) 11:13, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, the lead already had mentioned that Patel assisted Gandhi in Kheda Satyagraha, it was also mentioned so in this article. Kheda satyagraha was one of the three early satyagrahas [the other two being Ahmedabad mill and Champaran] done by Gandhi before Bal Gangadhar Tilak's death, whose death made the former the sole leader of Indian independence movement. Thus the word "early".
It is in popular culture that Patel is an important lieutenant. The most comprehensive biography on Gandhi yet, Gandhi: The Years That Changed the World, has described Patel as "Gandhi's companion and Political Lieutenant, Vallabhbhai Patel". The page number cannot be cited as is mentioned in the gallery section. But it could be verified by this google [| search] or https://imgur.com/a/Rz0ZNV0. Appu (talk) 13:13, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Update: Added "political" before "lieutenant". Appu (talk) 18:25, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

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