Talk:William Thomas Drain

William Thomas Drain

I have been researching my grandfathers playing history for sometime. He played back in the 20’s and 30’s. very difficult to find any of his playing stats. I have put together a wiki page to capture his playing days and to update it regularly when more information comes to hand. Neil Neilf72 (talk) 05:48, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

You should probably review the guidelines on conflict of interest editing with respect to working on articles about your ancestors. For the criteria used to determine whether a topic is worthy of its own page, please consult the general notability guidelines. More specific guidelines on sport-related subjects also apply in this case.

Note that although the Thomas Drain article exists, it was likely created under a less stringent set of criteria that is now obsolete (WP:FOOTYN). It may not be able to withstand scrutiny if proposed to be deleted.

Hope that helps! —2406:3003:2077:1E60:5BFF:E3BA:A88D:95 (talk) 13:51, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

William played in a team that was the most successful for it era, perhaps regarded as the team of the decade if not century. As this was the early days of soccer in Australia. Finding detailed information has been complex. Putting this information on wiki is important to past and future players or lovers of soccer as it helps fill the gaps from when soccer started in Australia until today. I am part of a small group of people who are trying to highlight the importance of this era and bringing this list information to light. Newspaper clippings are one source, but not ideal to wiki. I understand this and will try to gather more information. The information I wish to publish will be accurate as I want this legacy to have meaning and enable future readers to understand the facts and see the starting point of Australian soccer. Neil — Preceding undated comment added 00:27, 17 August 2023‎ (UTC)

The National Library of Australia is a Government Institution that archives many items including News Paper Articles. All references are collected via this Institution and have no reason not to be legitimate.

I have cited the NLA and all references to show William Thomas Drain career through various articles.

All articles showed he played for Railways SC, Victoria Park SC, South Perth United and was a referee.

Their is a document being stored by footballwest that gives all the players stats, wins, loses and cup win during Williams time at Victoria Park SC.

William has been nominated for the Australia Football Hall of Fame. Once elevated I can then link his elevation to the hall of fame as a further citation.

At no stage with any information on his page is not accurate nor correct.

There is even a photo of William and his Team from 1933.

I will advise that you should read the citations, check the related links and study before making such comments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neilf72 (talk • contribs) 00:23, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

The removed citations are not useful for verification or context, as explained in the edit summaries. To address your specific complaints:

Their is a document being stored by footballwest that gives all the players stats, wins, loses and cup win during Williams time at Victoria Park SC. — then please provide a link to that document, and not the organization's main page, which is of no utility here.

William has been nominated for the Australia Football Hall of Fame. Once elevated I can then link his elevation to the hall of fame as a further citation. — if there are sources that provide evidence of his nomination, then that fact can be added to the article. Otherwise, the hall of fame link is indeed only useful as a source after he is included on the page upon his induction.

Regarding At no stage with any information on his page is not accurate nor correct. — there has been no accusation or insinuation to that effect. Please understand that wikipedia is built on the principle of verifiability, and not truth. Even if you are sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it - others need to be able to check it for themselves. You can't just dump information on a talkpage without giving sources and expect others to add it. A one-liner draft with no supporting sources isn't going to pass muster.

It is your responsibility to provide sources that directly support the content that you are adding. Others should not have to go searching or hunting for that information, or try to match the sources to the statements they support. This why the article has a notice on top saying that "sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations".

Earlier on (when this was still a draft), there was no way of magically knowing what the sources were, when it was not properly communicated. When the references were just a long list of library accession IDs like "NLA.news-article00000.0", no one else could understand what that meant, let alone be able to access that information and in order to verify what you've written.

Even now, it is not clear which citations are intended to support which statements in the article. Some claims, such as biographical information or the cup wins in the infobox, remain entirely unsupported by sources. And although match reports in newspapers can tell us that Drain was playing for certain teams at certain times, that can't necessarily be interpolated to fill any gaps in the available reporting to produce the date ranges in the infobox.

As for All references are collected via [National Library of Australia] and have no reason not to be legitimate. — the historical record undoubtedly exists and no one is questioning its provenance, these are certainly reliable sources. But the citations consist almost entirely of pre-match team lists and post-match reports that only contain passing mentions about the subject. These may help support factual content, but I'm not convinced that constitutes significant coverage for establishing notability, which is another important concept. Citing a large number of sources that only contain passing mentions still does not help; it buries other potentially useful sources.

Rather than including practically every newspaper article that matches a search for "soccer" and "Drain", can you identify, say, three in-depth sources that substantively discuss in greater detail some aspect of William Drain as a person or player? Something like a couple of paragraphs about him specifically, and not just a one- or two-sentence mention in routine game coverage that says he played in a match, had an assist or kicked a goal.

Finally, we are all volunteers working to improve wikipedia, and it is better to assume good faith rather than treat others as adversaries and using condescending language like I will advise that you [...] study before making such comments. Rejections of drafts and edits by other users are part of the normal processes in the community, and not somehow malicious attempts to obstruct you, even though it may feel this way to a new editor like yourself.

Normally, creating an article is a challenging task that is not recommended for newcomers like yourself who are just getting started learning how to edit; it is better to learn the ropes by working on simpler tasks first. By taking it upon yourself to try to "fill the gaps" in coverage of early Australian soccer history, and in particular by choosing to work on a subject that you are connected with, you've really thrown yourself into the deep end. Please take a moment to understand the relevant policies and guidelines before continuing.

— 2406:3003:2077:1E60:4A9:FC5B:6E38:A1C9 (talk) 15:19, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

I have read your very very very long response. I can't grasp it.

One of your colleagues has approved this page. It passed the criteria and has been published.

Your responses appear to be based on assumptions. Your assuming, but you don't actually know.

I won't be replying to any further comments as I am content with your colleagues approval of this page and its publication.

If you are not happy with your colleague and wish to delete this page then please feel free to do so.

Any enjoyment having WIlliam Thomas Drains Football history publish has no gone.

Best of luck. Neilf72 (talk) 23:28, 21 August 2023 (UTC)