Talk:Y-DNA haplogroups in indigenous peoples of the Americas

European Addmixture

Why does this article promote that the R1 Y-chromosome DNA is an Indigenous peoples haplogroup? R1 is nothing more than a recent European admixture.

Claiming R1 as an Indigenous haplogroup is not evidence that Europeans were the original colonizers of the Americas, as some claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Niineta (talk • contribs) 20:59, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

The data in this article is about native population in the present days, and it is in accordance with cultural and ethnical items. If you go to the R map, you'll see the importance of the presence in Native Americans of this lineage.

Bortoloni 2003 said that it is believed that these populations could be the result of European admixture, however the high frequency of haplogroup R1-M173 (known by Bortoloni as haplogroup P-M45b) in native northamericans also makes it unlikely that all of these chromosomes are the result from admixture, since such a predominant European ancestry seems inconsistent with the preservation of the cultural identity of this population.

The Zegura and Malhi sources both treat R as the result of European admixture. But they don’t show the subcladistic data for this conclusion. We can't rule out anything without showing more precise evidences.

On the other hand: You can see the map about Haplogroup X (mtDNA) and you will notice the similarity to R (Y-DNA).

We may also talk about the Kennewick Man, who lived 6-9 Kya ago in Washington state and whose genetic analysis resulted X (mtDNA) and many related him to the Western world because of his seemingly caucasic look.

The main matter is that native americans have been poorly studied. It is incredible that the first mtDNA names: A, B, C and D were given to North American natives, giving the impression that they were the first ones to be studied. But, as for Y chromosome DNA, they are the last ones.

Archeological evidence is not concluding, and many believe that the first Americans came from Europe (See link) the called Solutrean hypothesis.

Let see more: X mtDNA evidence indicated that X2 settled America 15 Kya, but we don't know whether it came from Europe where it is currently 2% or if it came from Altai region where it is 4.4%. R Y-DNA evidence shows R1b/R1a in Europe. But R1a is also common in Siberia, with 9.1% in Mongolia. And the presence of R1b in Siberia is not solved as you can see in Derenko 2005.

In conclusion, the presence of R in North America is an unsolved subject and it is mandatory to know new researches.

For more information, you can look R1b (Y-DNA) and X (mtDNA) in North America. Eupedia.com.--Maulucioni (talk) 01:18, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps we should title the section R1 (M137) - this way its more clear its a sub group.Moxy (talk)

Wikipedia article Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA) states . . Due to European emigration it (R1) also reaches high frequencies in the Americas and Australia. This indicates R1 is a recent European admixture. I looked over the links provided and didn't find any that say R1 is identified as Native American. Other references fail to identify R1 as Native American. This one makes no reference to Native Americans. http://www.kerchner.com/haplogroups-ydna.htm

The quote above beginning with "Bortoloni 2003 said" is taken out of context. It goes on to say "Our findings therefore support the proposal of Lell et al. . . The dual origin and Siberian affinities of Native American Y chromosomes. . that a fraction of the haplotype 3–related P-M45* chromosomes observed in Native North Americans originated in Asia and are not the result of recent admixture with Europeans".

Furthermore the statement. . "it's unlikely that all of these chromosomes are the result from admixture, since such a predominant European ancestry seems inconsistent with the preservation of the cultural identity of this population".

If they understood the populations they tested (Indigenous people), They would know (even today) Indigenous people seldom marry outside of their ethnic group. Once genes are introduced into the group those genes can quickly increase within the group through intermarriage without affecting their cultural identity. European genes were introduced into many Indigenous populations because in the Americas Indigenous women were a commodity.

Here is a graph (pg 6) showing various Indigenous populations of the Americas. It shows how little the Indigenous populations mixed with each other. http://www.dnatribes.com/sample-results/dnatribes-global-survey-regional-affinities.pdf

I fail to find any documentation that states that R1 is Native American, which makes the data incorrect. Niineta (talk) 04:23, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you could read over Genetic history of indigenous peoples of the Americas or Distribution of Y Chromosomes Among Native North Americans its not from European admixture is a founding Haplogroup.Moxy (talk) 04:58, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Wow. There seems to be a serious problem with Genetic history of indigenous peoples of the Americas! It currently states: "The distribution of R1 is believed to be associated with the re-settlement of Eurasia following the last glacial maximum, and entered the Americas with the initial founding population." But the following citation (Singh 2008) clearly states that R1 is due to European admixture (pp. 418-420). Moxy, the link you gave is the above Singh paper that asserts that R1 is likely European! Wikipedia articles by themselves are not a reliable sources. You've got to use caution when using them to prove a point - especially when you can easily read the cited references yourself. I think Niineta is on to something; someone should take another look at that article - it's claiming the opposite of what the following citation says.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:05, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Surely you understand that R1 is not exclusively associated with Europe? In any case Haplogroup R1 of various clades have been found all over Eurasia. R-M17 was found in the Itelmen and Chukchi peoples who live in Kamchatka (the part of Russia Sarah Palin claims she can from her house). The fact that isolated tribes in the far northwest are in Haplogroup R1 and the fact that more than half of the male populations of several very large Indian tribes like the Chippewa also belong to Hapologroup R1 naturally makes geneticists suspicious that they overlooked the possibility that R1 came to North America before European contact. Why would they overlook that time and time again? Simple, R1 is not only the most common haplogroup in Europe, but also tends to be associated with northern tribes which are believed to have intermarried extensively with Europeans. The studies that have been done show that those Indians who belong to R1 tend to cluster with European populations but some of them don't. For instance Zegura comes to the same conclusion as Singh, the presence R-P25 is the result of European admixture, the study says: "On the basis of our new data and analyses, 76 of 79 Native American R lineage chromosomes belong to haplogroup R-P25" (Zegura 2004), so the conclusions he comes to about the presence of R-P25 in Native American populations is interesting and all but what about the other three lineages? He doesn't mention them at all afterwords and that is a mistake. For instance if I recall correctly R1a is listed as being present in his sample. That haplogroup is spread over Eurasia with concentrations in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, it is present (usually) but rare in Western European populations, the further west you go the more uncommon it becomes, for instance it completely disappears in Iberia and France and is extremely uncommon in the British Isles. However R1a is also found in Siberia and specifically Kamchatka, something that this study <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384887/> investigated. For these reasons additional studies may be needed to figure out whether or not the claim of R1 being in North America before the coming of any Europeans holds any water, but nevertheless it is silly to simply dismiss the idea that it could be indigenous to the continent.

Renaming proposal

Interested/knowledgeable parties, please see Talk:Y-chromosome haplogroups by populations#Renaming for a renaming proposal that would affect this article and 10 others. Please comment over there to keep the discussion centralized. Thanks. - dcljr (talk) 00:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

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