Template:Did you know nominations/Hanif Kureshi

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 14:52, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Hanif Kureshi

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... that Indian street artist Hanif Kureshi, working pseudonymously as Daku, would use Google Street View images to practice his art before rendering them on the streets? Source: [Livemint]
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Booby Island (Saint Kitts and Nevis)

Converted from a redirect by Ktin (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 106 past nominations.

Ktin (talk) 01:27, 28 September 2024 (UTC).

Extremely no-fun comment: If this goes on the main page, the copyright status of the images in it should be clear. I'm looking at c:Commons:Copyright_rules_by_territory/India, and it says that there is not freedom of panorama "For copyrighted 2D (paintings, drawings, maps, pictures, engravings, etc.)". It seems that only sculptures, and art that is not "Paintings, drawings, or photographs", has FOP. So.. did Hanif Kureshi dedicate his art to the public domain? Is his estate (if any) willing to, if he didn't? I'm not demanding the images be removed or anything, just that if we can't be sure, it may be better to withdraw the nom and keep the possibly questionable images than proceed with the nom if the image copyright status can't be ascertained. (Of course, if the copyright status can be ascertained to be good, then great.) SnowFire (talk) 03:06, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe we should be good on Indian freedom of panorama due to the 'permanently situate' clause. Specifically, this would be included in the freedom of panorama clause in India because the work is "permanently situated in a public place or premises to which the public has access". Will wait for the DYK review. Ktin (talk) 03:23, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Comment: All of the images I've uploaded of street murals have been deleted from Commons. I can't imagine that these will survive either. Viriditas (talk) 23:30, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

If I may ask, which country's street murals did you upload? If it was Indian street murals and the murals were in a public place, they should not have been deleted. Specifically as quoted above, if the work of art is permanently situated in a public place or premises to which the public has access, that should be allowed under freedom of panorama, in India. Ktin (talk) 00:44, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I uploaded images of murals in the US, but my reading of SnowFire's comment indicates that Indian murals aren't protected either. Viriditas (talk) 00:58, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Street art in India is permitted under Freedom of Panorama if they were in a public place, specifically under clause Section 52(t) which says (the following acts shall not constitute an infringement of copyright) ... if such work is permanently situate in a public place or any premises to which the public has access. So if you had uploaded pictures of murals in India, they should not have been deleted. Ktin (talk) 03:52, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I will take your word for it; but others might not. I've never seen a lead image in the PNG format before, especially one that represents a screen capture from a video. Viriditas (talk) 08:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm doing a read through and random spot checks. I don't like how you use multiple sources after a sentence; when I look at the source, I see that only one of the two (for example) supports the material in whole or in part, rather than both. I'm guessing this is due to older versions and too many cooks in the kitchen. Best practice is to have one citation at the end of a sentence or phrase or a word. I find it helpful to bundle sources if you need to use more than two, such that one appears inline only. Example: there's no reason to have two citations after "Kureshi was born on 12 October 1982 in Palitana, a town in the Bhavnagar district of Gujarat", when the entire statement is supported by just one.[1] Viriditas (talk) 09:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

And now I see that neither of the cited sources supports his birth date of 12 October. Please go through this article and make sure each citation is used judiciously and supports the material. Viriditas (talk) 09:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

This source supports the birth date, but is not currently in the article. Also, because it was published on October 30, we don't know if there's a problem with citogenesis. Looking at the page history, the only source for his birth date is yourself. Perhaps you can fix this issue? Viriditas (talk) 06:41, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok, the birth date comes from the social media account for the St+art India Foundation which announced his death on September 23.[2] It doesn't look like anyone else used it until much later, either copying it from Facebook and Instagram or from this article. I'm not clear how we go ahead and cite that other than IAR. Viriditas (talk) 06:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I think I figured out a workaround. Vogue India posted a piece just before or after you created the Wikipedia bio. They directly cited a portion of the original Instagram post (an image), which preserves the chain of evidence in a reliable secondary source without citogenesis. I will go ahead and add this now. Viriditas (talk) 06:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm slowly making way through every sentence, and virtually every paragraph has the wrong source or a missing source. I am attempting to fix this, but this article was not ready for DYK when it was nominated. Viriditas (talk) 09:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Almost done, but I have to go to sleep now and won't be able to finish until tomorrow. If anyone reads this, the lead doesn't mention the Handpainted Type Project and it really needs to do so. I would be embarrassed to run this if it didn't. Viriditas (talk) 11:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ktin: your hook has to be based on information in the article. Currently, you don't mention anything about Daku inline. You will need to add that. In addition to adding it to the body, I would also add it to the lead along with the Handpainted Type Project. Viriditas (talk) 11:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: I don’t have access to a computer that I can edit from. But I had a brief look and an IP editor and another one-edit editor has edited the article after I nominated the DYK to remove content from both the body and the lede. Please have a look. Alternately, I will when I get access again. Ktin (talk) 23:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ktin: Thanks for letting me know. I will take care of the issues, but by doing so, I won't be allowed to review the nomination. Please confirm that all of these images of murals were completed in whole or in part by Hanif Kureshi. I have added commons categories to all of them in good faith, but there is no identifying information in the image uploads indicating Kureshi is the author. Viriditas (talk) 23:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I will attempt to add sources to the images later tonight. Viriditas (talk) 03:02, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Ping me when you're done and I will review this.--Laun chba ller 15:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I will. The article is very problematic, and I'm having to go through every sentence, line by line, source by source. There's also an enormous amount that isn't here, so there's a potential WP:DYKCOMPLETE problem that I'm also trying to solve. Viriditas (talk) 21:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ktin: I'm trying to finish this up, but I noticed that professor Sanchita Khurana has included a lot of great images of Kureshi's public art online with a photo credit to the St+art India Foundation. Does that mean I can upload the images to commons, or not? Given that Kureshi co-founded this project with the idea of getting art to the people, it would make sense if the images were released to the public, as that philosophy would be aligned with the original intent of the foundation. It would also vastly improve this article. Otherwise, we currently only have one image of Kureshi's work, and because the angle is rather extreme and the lighting is harsh, it's not a good one, and I would like to remedy that by replacing it with a non-free one if need be. Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: I still do not have access to a computer that I can edit from. However, these images — are they images of buildings / streets that have the murals on them or are they pictures of the murals isolated? If the former they would be allowed under freedom of panorama in India, but, if they are the latter, they are copyrighted. We can always reach out to St+art India on instagram and ask them if they are willing to upload a picture or two onto commons and release them under cc3 or similar. I have seen folks do that in the past. Unfortunately we can’t use non free image under the *fair use* principle because it will be argued that it is possible to walk up and get a picture of the building / street art. Furthermore, iirc fair use would require that the picture be used as the identifying graphic for the article. I hope to get access to a computer to edit from over the weekend and I can lend a hand. Ktin (talk) 04:15, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: I am back with availability over the weekend. Feel free to let me know if you need anything from me. Thanks. Ktin (talk) 08:35, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ktin: Thank you. I am trying to wind things down and wrap this up. I'm hoping to be finished in 14-16 hours from now, if I can get it together. Viriditas (talk) 09:32, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ktin: I think I figured out why I was having so many problems. The merge of Daku (artist) was never completed. I only just saw this. This is why I made the comment about DYKCOMPLETE up above. What I'm seeing in the sources and what I'm seeing in this article didn't line up until I looked at the original Daku article, which shows me all the missing content. Viriditas (talk) 11:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ktin: It would be very helpful if you could upload some more free images. I understand if you can't, but the only image we have of Kureshi's work is sadly captured from the wrong angle. That particular work (We Love Dilli) is supposed to be captured from the front to show the script floating. With the current image taken from the side, you can't actually see that effect, and it pretty much detracts from the entire point. I understand that the photographer probably wasn't aware of this, but photographing art is very tricky, and there are, in fact, pieces which defy the act of photography itself. If that means requesting images from the various art collectives Kureshi worked with, that would be great. Viriditas (talk) 10:05, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: I have asked on the Instagram page of St+art India. Will keep you posted. Ktin (talk) 19:15, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: Btw, the graffiti that image that you have added from Goregaon. I had seen that before. While it does read "Daku", I had no way to verify that it was indeed Kureshi's creation. Hence, I had not added it to the article. From a stylization standpoint, it does not line up with any of his other creations. I might be wrong. But, what we have there is unverified. Ktin (talk) 19:24, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. The WSJ said he spent a year tagging buildings in Mumbai, and that he "shies away from being associated with just one face or identity. He doesn't want to be known for only one kind of art." I'll consider removing it if I can't find anything else to support it. I should also note that the Gujarati language Wikipedia pretty much confirms this: "Over the years he wrote his name in different colors and patterns in cities like Mumbai..." Viriditas (talk) 21:54, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Launchballer: I've made some significant progress, and I'm at an inflection point. I don't want this to time out, so I'm wondering if I can have another day or two to work on it. Viriditas (talk) 22:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Of course, take your time.--Laun chba ller 22:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I just want to note that the hook has to be rewritten as it completely underplays the point of why Kureshi was using Google Street View, which is the most interesting part of the hook. Viriditas (talk) 23:21, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

ALT1 ... that Hanif Kureshi transformed shadows cast by the Sun into street art? Majumdar, Roshni (12 May 2016). "Indian street artist Daku reveals graffiti powered by the sun". CNN; Parakala, Vangmayi (6 May 2016). "On 15 May, this art will disappear". Mint.

@Launchballer: I'm ready for a review. Viriditas (talk) 11:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ktin and Viriditas: Alright. This is certainly long enough at just under 7500 characters. The problem I have is that - per the talk page - this article previously existed at Daku (artist), where it was just under 5000 characters. Even if I yeeted all the {{cn}} stuff on BLP grounds, it would still be over 3000. I think this needs to go through GA to be eligible. I'm very sorry.--Laun chba ller 13:03, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

@Launchballer: Firstly, thanks for your patience on this one. I just want to note that this article Hanif Kureshi was built independently of Daku (artist) until we found that article. The context here is that the pseudonymous name Daku and related contributions were roughly one third of Kureshi's overall contributions. There was hardly any content that was brought in from the Daku article into this one when we merged the two. If you see Viriditas's note re: WP:DYKCOMPLETE also partly stemmed from that. With this, my submission is that we should consider this article independently. That said, I can understand if you think this nomination should be rejected. Thank you. Ktin (talk) 16:32, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: Given that you have worked more than I have on identifying additional sources and expanding the article, I am happy to nominate this one for WP:GA on your behalf if you have the availability to work on any feedback that comes from the review process. I am happy to lend a hand as well. I will keep you posted on the response re: the ask for additional images. Ktin (talk) 16:50, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Pings won't work unless you sign in the same edit, but Viriditas should still get mine from earlier. My problem is that this wouldn't be eligible if you'd found that first and expanded it. The nearest equivalent I can think of is Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 200#Request to close nomination, at which IAR wasn't mentioned. If you put in a request at WP:GARC, you might be able to get it done before this times out.--Laun chba ller 17:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

@Launchballer: Use Special:ComparePages for this kind of problem. Here is the result. Daku (artist) and Hanif Kureshi are the same, but two separate articles with different content. The reason they are topic dupes, is because the original article was based on the anonymous career of Daku’s work as a graffiti artist before he became known as Hanif Kureshi. Ktin created this article after Kureshi died. I believe this means this DYK is still eligible. This kind of problem has come up before so this shouldn’t be a problem. Viriditas (talk) 17:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:DYK5X, "this calculation is made from the last version of the article before the expansion began, even if text from the original was deleted in the process (unless the text was a copyright violation, in which case it does not count towards the size of the original)." You can take it up at WT:DYK if you like, but I still don't think this is eligible.--Laun chba ller 01:16, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

It’s not a 5x problem. They were two separate articles; Ktin wasn’t even aware of the other article until two days after writing this one, and as you can see from the ComparePage diff result up above, there’s no overlapping content. The original article was about an anonymous graffiti artist; this article was about the man himself. I realize that this must be confusing for you as it’s an edge case, so I won’t be taking it up anywhere, however I do remember this kind of thing happening before in the past. Have a great week. Viriditas (talk) 01:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I could not have said this better. Thank you Viriditas. Ktin (talk) 03:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

If you nominate it, you will need to find time to work with the reviewer. My task here was to try and salvage this DYK, which appears to have failed. In the future, always check for article dupes under different names before creating a new one. I think your article still qualifies for DYK since it was original content not based on the Daku article. Viriditas (talk) 18:25, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with Launchballer; just because another article on the same individual was redirected to this one does not make it ineligible. My only gripe with the current hook, @Viriditas and Ktin: I cannot see how this particular street art can be described as having been "painted". "Constructed" seems a much better word. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:12, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

If there is consensus I'm on wrong on that point, then I will withdraw my objection and finish the review. I see I already read the article; the QPQ has been done and the hook would otherwise check out. I don't see anything else that might disqualify this.--Laun chba ller 13:34, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Understood, as I was intentionally riffing on "painting with shadows". Let me rework that hook. Viriditas (talk) 21:59, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: I gave ALT1 another go up above. Let me know if it works for you or not. Viriditas (talk) 22:13, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd lose "Indian artist" for concision and very possibly "typographic", but it otherwise checks out.--Laun chba ller 02:27, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed and done. Viriditas (talk) 03:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC)