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Template:Did you know nominations/Saint Ninnoc

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 17:39, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Saint Ninnoc

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Saint Ninnoc
Saint Ninnoc
  • ... that Saint Ninnoc (pictured) is often shown with a stag lying at her feet, symbolising women who found shelter in her monastery at Lanennoc? Source: "ting project to provide sustenance to the Bretons and allow them to live better. Ninnoc gained a reputation as a protector of women; in artistic depictions of her, she is often shown with a stag lying at her feet, said to represent the abused women who found shelter and protection at Lannennoc." https://www.encyclopedia.com/women/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/ninnoc-fl-6th-c
    • ALT1:... that Saint Ninnoc (pictured) chose to became a nun aged 15 and her father King Brychan sent her to Brittany with "ship, money and attendants", despite the fact he wanted her to inherit his kingdom? Source: "As they were sitting at table, the prin- cess came in and threw herself at her father's feet, begging him to grant what she was about to ask in presence of all the assembled nobles. Brochan having promised, she declared that lands and gold, or any other kinds of wealth, were nothing to her ; she only begged for her father's permission to leave the kingdom and go to Letavia, with as many of her friends and servants as would volunteer to accompany her, to do as she herself did for the love of God. At this announcement, a great sad- ness fell on the whole party, the queen gave way to despair ; but St. Germanus comforted the king and exhorted him not to oppose that holy vocation, to which his daughter had been called, even before her birth. So the king made answer to Ninnoc, " Beloved daughter, I have hitherto cherished the hope that in you I should reign over my kingdom, even after my own death ; but since you have chosen the kingdom of heaven rather than an earthly dominion, I give you loave to go wherever you please, and may my blessing go with you. You shall have ships, and money, and attendants, and all that you require." https://archive.org/details/DictionaryOfSaintlyWomenV2/page/n119/mode/2up

Created by Lajmmoore (talk). Self-nominated at 09:23, 2 November 2020 (UTC).

  • @Cwmhiraeth: Hi, Would you be able to help? I got this message on my Talk page and can't work out how to fix it, would you be able to help? I used the DYK tool to make the nomination, like I usually do, so am a bit confused. Thanks in advance Lajmmoore (talk) 20:58, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 Done Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:38, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 Reviewing..., starting DYK review for nomination. Flibirigit (talk) 17:27, 9 November 2020 (UTC)


General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - ?
  • Interesting: Yes
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article moved to mainspace on October 29 and nominated within seven days. Length and sourcing are adequate. Article appears neutral in tone, but I have some concerns over the tone as noted below. No plagiarism issues detected. Both images used in the article are properly licensed on the Commons. The nominated image is clear at a low resolution and greatly enhances the hook. QPQ requirement is complete. Both hooks are interesting and cited, but the wording of ALT0 is not similar enough to the article for me to comfortable is saying it is cited. Please compare "symbolising women who found shelter in her monastery" to "which represents the at-risk women who came under her guardianship". Overall the article is in good shape, but I have a couple minor questions. I am confused what is meant in the introduction by the statement "and this text". What text is being referred to? In the third paragraph of the Biography, I am confused by the sentence "The foundation became known as Lannennoc, in her name". What is meant here by "in her name"? I have inserted a "by whom?" tag in the Feast days section to be clarified. In this Historiography section, the first sentence contains the subjective words "little" and "much". These should be avoided for optimal encyclopedic tone. Flibirigit (talk) 18:06, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

  • Hello Flibirigit Thanks very much for your detailed comments. I have addressed them in turn in edits on the page, if you could take a look that would be great. I did them one by one, so you should be able to see them in the History. In terms of the hook, thanks again, How about:
ALT0b... that Saint Ninnoc (pictured) is often shown with a stag lying at her feet, said to represent the at-risk women who came under her guardianship? Source: "ting project to provide sustenance to the Bretons and allow them to live better. Ninnoc gained a reputation as a protector of women; in artistic depictions of her, she is often shown with a stag lying at her feet, said to represent the abused women who found shelter and protection at Lannennoc." https://www.encyclopedia.com/women/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/ninnoc-fl-6th-c
Let me know what you think Lajmmoore (talk) 20:05, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
I have also noticed that the birth date (c. 435) and the death date (4 June 467) do not appear to have a citation anywhere in the article. I will have a more detailed look at the changes later tonight or tomorrow. At a quick glance, I have noted improvements. Thanks. Flibirigit (talk) 20:30, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
I have decided to strike ALT1 because it is too wordy to be interesting, even though just under 200 characters. I suggest splitting it up into shorter hooks as below: Flibirigit (talk) 04:03, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  • ALT2:... that Saint Ninnoc (pictured) chose to became a nun aged 15, and her father King Brychan sent her to Brittany with "ship, money and attendants"? Source: same as ALT1
  • ALT3:... that Saint Ninnoc (pictured) chose to became a nun aged 15, despite that her father King Brychan wanted her to inherit his kingdom? Source: same as ALT1
  • Thanks very Flibirigit - splitting the hooks is a much better idea. In terms of the differences in the dates - you are absolutely right to point it out - what a silly oversight of me. I looked back and I believe the date 4 June 467 came from the link that is now Footnote 7, originally via the Fr Wiki. In terms of birth date, I'd just got my Maths badly wrong, so I have added a note below. It's my first time adding a note, and I'd appreciate if you could check it. Thanks Lajmmoore (talk) 10:31, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I appreciate that you have tried to use a footnote, and I have formatted it to remove the error. Within the footnote itself, citations need to be added for "38 years lived in Brittany" and the "age of 15 years that she arrived there". The second sentence in the fourth biograph needs a bit of adjustment. The phrase "She is said to have died on 4 June 467" begs the question according to whom. Also, the phrase "after an illness which enabled her to know her last hour was approaching" sounds very colloquial. It would be better to say "after a lengthy illness". Also, the birth date in the infobox needs to match the date in the introduction. Flibirigit (talk) 15:49, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Please note that despite I have made a lot of suggestions for changes, I sincerely do want to see this on the main page. I think we're almost there. Flibirigit (talk) 15:55, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Thanks so much Flibirigit and thanks for the reassurance too. I've changed the date in the infobox and added references to the note. The bit about her death is a bit more complex but I'll sort it out tomorrow. Really appreciate the positive changes we're making and your time. Lajmmoore (talk) 22:25, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
  • The footnote now looks sufficient. Flibirigit (talk) 00:28, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Hi Flibirigit I think I have sorted out her date of death now and hopefully its clearer. Please do let me know if not Lajmmoore (talk) 19:01, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I will have a more detailed look later tonight or tomorrow. Flibirigit (talk) 19:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Approving ALT0b as interesting, properly cited inline and verified, and the nomination adheres to all DYK policies. Also tentatively approving ALT2 and ALT3 as slight modifications by myself of ALT1 as proposed by the nominator. They are interesting, properly cited inline and verified. Any other reviewer is welcome to comment if they feel I am too involved in the nomination, or disagree with approval of ALT2 and ALT3. Flibirigit (talk) 22:03, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

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