Template talk:Knoxville, Tennessee

Actual neighborhoods

1. Halls is Halls Crossroads, Tennessee, and is located outside of Knoxville.
2. "North," "South," "East," and "West" Knoxville are not "neighborhoods," they're large sections of the city that contain multiple neighborhoods.
3. Island Home Park, Lincoln Park, and Ridgedale are neighborhoods recognized by Knoxville, and should be included.

City-data.com is not a reliable source for this sort of thing. Please see Knoxville's Office of Neighborhoods page for a better source. Bms4880 (talk) 14:29, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I got your message. I also looked at the reference you gave me and it does not seem to be as accurate on this. For Halls, lets put this in the Neighborhoods in Knoxville, Tennessee, but keep the other link up articles as a references. Any issues? Chris (talk) 14:32, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there are issues. Halls is not in Knoxville. Are you going to add Powell, Karns, and Mascot, simply because they're located on the city's periphery? South Knoxville is not a neighborhood. It's too large an area to be called a "neighborhood." Ditto with West, North, and East. These areas contain multiple neighborhoods. Island Home Park, Lincoln Park, and Ridgedale, which you for some reason wish to exclude, are neighborhoods, with organizations describing them as such. Finally, I can't tell from the wording of your response, but are you suggesting city-data.com is more reliable than Knoxville's Office of Neighborhoods site? Bms4880 (talk) 14:46, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The fact that you have "Sequoya Hills" and "Sequoyah Hills" in the same template illustrates the problem with using a site with user-generated data like city-data. There is no "Sequoya Hills," some city-data user apparently didn't know how to spell "Sequoyah," and ended up creating a separate entry for the same community. "Bearden" and "Bearden Village" are also the same neighborhood. Bms4880 (talk) 15:25, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Yikes, this template is a mess! A few observations:

• City-data.com is not a reliable source, and the website doesn't indicate where they got their information.
• As Bms4880 explains, Halls Crossroads (aka "Halls") is not in Knoxville, but is an unincorporated place in Knox County outside the city limits (similar to Powell, Karns, Solway, and Corryton).
• The University of Tennessee is not a neighborhood. Nor is Middlebrook, which is a house.
• The City of Knoxville neighborhoods list also is not a wonderful information source, mainly because it lists every "neighborhood" that has formed an association, many of which are individual subdivisions that would never have an encyclopedia article.
• The article Downtown Knoxville, which seems to be a collection of light fluff scraped together by city-data.com, also is problematic.
• "Sequoya Hills" and "Tibbercrest" are misspellings of the names of actual areas. These misspellings illustrate just how unreliable city-data is a source.

It is not obvious to me that there is a need for a Knoxville neighborhoods navbox template, but a template is going to exist, maybe it should be limited (at least for now) to actual neighborhoods (i.e., not including the university or Halls or Middlebrook) that have articles. --Orlady (talk) 16:07, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Most of the neighborhoods listed in the www.cityofknoxville.org website from observations are homeowners and neighborhood watch associations. Would the www.knoxville.com website listing of neighborhoods be a more valid listing on this? City-data.com may not be the best listings, but it is a start until we can get more information. Thoughts Chris (talk) 14:25, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

City-data is unreliable. They don't state where they're getting their information, so we can't tell if it's based on actual data or just guesswork. There is no census data for some of these neighborhoods, so any demographic information is suspect. In the two cases where there were duplicate entries for the same neighborhoods, the users drew different boundaries. Bms4880 (talk) 15:10, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

City-data is not a reliable source

See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 48#City-Data.com. --Orlady (talk) 16:27, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

AfD

I have proposed the related article for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Neighborhoods of Knoxville, Tennessee. --Orlady (talk) 17:40, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Template adjustment

Here's an idea. What if we split this up into regional neighborhoods in Downtown, East, North, South, and West as main link, then put in the respective neighborhoods in the regional areas such as Fort Sanders in the downtown area and Chilhowee in the East area as an example. Thoughts? Chris (talk) 14:34, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest keeping the South, West, etc. links for smaller neighborhoods, and keeping the larger, more established neighborhoods that have been around for a long time and have clear notability. The following are listed as historic districts on the National Register, and thus have potential for substantial articles: Fourth & Gill, Fort Sanders, Lindbergh Forest, Parkridge (as Park City), Ridgedale, Forest Hills, and Island Home Park. Lincoln Park is a long-established neighborhood (100+ years old), and has its own community organizational page (which it shares with Oakwood). Ditto with Lonsdale. So, I suggest keeping all of these in the template, along with the ones that already have pages. I suggest putting the South Knoxville neighborhoods, with the exception of Island Home Park, under the single listing of South Knoxville, and simply dedicating a section of the South Knoxville page to each neighborhood. Bms4880 (talk) 15:34, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

We need objective definitions of East, North, and West. The USGS gives the coordinates for North Knoxville as 35.9970270, -83.9185177 and 36.0020271, -83.9124065, and they give the coordinates for West as 35.9703599, -83.9551854, none of which are much help. Bms4880 (talk) 16:01, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

The last time I looked, the articles about East, North, West, Downtown, Bearden, and possibly other areas were supported only by city-data.com and the generic blather that half the city's realtors use on their websites. Since this is not appropriate content to use as a basis for a Wikipedia article (and I don't believe that authoritative definitions can be found), I intended to propose those pages for deletion, but haven't gotten around to making the nominations. --Orlady (talk) 19:21, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I've looked and looked, and looked some more, and I simply can't find any objective or official definitions for East Knoxville, West Knoxville, or North Knoxville. They have historical definitions (they were all once separate towns), but these would require articles with entirely different content. If the articles aren't based on real definitions, I suppose they're doing more harm than good.

"Downtown" is a little more easy to define, but it doesn't need a separate article, and it certainly isn't a "neighborhood." Furthermore, most of the Knoxville article is essentially about downtown Knoxville.

Bearden is a real neighborhood, but I can't find any verifiable information on it. There is the "bear den" story, and the blurb in Thunder Road, but that's about it. Discussion of Bearden might fit better in the Kingston Pike article.

Let's keep the South Knoxville article. It just needs a lot of work. Bms4880 (talk) 22:06, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks on the keeping the South Knoxville article. I plan on visiting that area in August for the school I transferred from is having their 20th reunion. Any pictures you need of certain areas? Chris (talk) 23:14, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

We need a sweeping shot of Chapman Highway (if I recall, there is a good view of it as you drive up the hill going to Ft. Dickerson), a photo of the Ft. Dickerson site, maybe a few images of the old Mead's Quarry site, which I believe is now a public park (I uploaded a historical photo of the quarry a few weeks ago), not sure what else. Bms4880 (talk) 13:51, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I can do Chapman Highway which I plan on adding Mr. Chapman's article, but I will not be able to do other items. One I do plan on doing is South Doyle High School (It was Doyle when I knew it before the 1991 merger.), especially on the school itself and the fact that it was in Alan Jackson's "Gone Country" video though I will not be able to do this until August. Chris (talk) 14:13, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Market Square

I think Market Square may qualify as a neighborhood for inclusion in the template. Thoughts? --Orlady (talk) 14:56, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm currently expanding the Market Square article, and it's more of a business district than a neighborhood. Then again, so is the Old City. Bms4880 (talk) 15:02, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

More inclusive template?

Take a look at the Nashville template and the Lexington template, which are much more broad than simply a neighborhood template. This type of template might work better for Knoxville. We can include sections for prominent neighborhoods, buildings, roads, etc. Bms4880 (talk) 15:28, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

As I see it, the need for a sensible template is just one manifestation of a long-standing problem with the Knoxville article and the Wikipedia categories related to Knoxville. That long-standing problem is a failure to distinguish clearly and consistently between the city of Knoxville, Knox County, and the larger Knoxville Metropolitan Area. I have the impression that at one time, somebody decided that the Knoxville article should cover the entire metro area, and that scope hasn't been entirely expunged from the article. IMO, "Template talk" isn't a real good place to discuss the appropriate structure for Knoxville-related articles, categories, and templates, but the discussion needs to happen. --Orlady (talk) 16:34, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Note that Metro Nashville (covered by Template:Metro_Nashville) is a consolidated city-county. In contrast, Knoxville and Knox County are distinct entities (and metro Knoxville is yet another distinct entity). --Orlady (talk) 16:37, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, we could form a Knoxville task force, but I'm not sure we would get more than 3 or 4 members. Otherwise, we can just start purging non-Knoxville info from the Knoxville article (starting with "Nearby Attractions"). I'm in the process of creating and expanding Knoxville-related articles, a process that will culminate with a major overhaul of the main article. This will take several weeks, if not months.

Re: the template— I'm not suggesting we form a "Metro Knoxville" template, I was more interested in the template's design. The Knoxville template shouldn't have the same categories as the Nashville template, I'm just suggesting a more inclusive template than one that merely lists neighborhoods. Bms4880 (talk) 17:06, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. Those other templates you cited had more of a metro flavor, which threw me off. A city-specific template would make sense, but so would a metro Knoxville template.

As for a locus for discussion, I was thinking in terms of Talk:Knoxville, Tennessee. The Knoxville article is on 70 watchlists (unlike this template, which I estimate is on no more than 2 or 3 watchlists). --Orlady (talk) 18:17, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Another source

Could the Knoxify site be used for neighborhoods sourcing? - [1]. Chris (talk) 15:16, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

It appears to be a user-generated blog. Again, I'm not sure what they're getting their information. Bms4880 (talk) 16:05, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

If you poke around that site, you'll discover that it's another real-estate-agent webpage. (Presumably created for the purpose of saying perky things about every neighborhood where the agent has listings.) --Orlady (talk) 16:15, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Just thought I would ask. Chris (talk) 22:47, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Forest HIlls question

I just noticed in another section of Wikipedia that there is a redlinked Forest Hills Boulevard Historic District in Knoxville. Is this the same one as the Forest Hills in Knoxville and if so, how does this need to be combined? Thoughts? Chris (talk) 19:48, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

They're similar enough to be the same article. The article should be named Forest Hills (Knoxville, Tennessee), since that's the name of the community. The NRHP infobox in the article should have the name "Forest Hills Boulevard Historic District," however. Bms4880 (talk) 23:30, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

If that is the case, would it make more sense to create the NRHP article, then redirect the Forest Hills (Knoxville, Tennessee) article into the Forest Hills Boulevard Historic District NRHP article? Chris (talk) 17:29, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

No, the historic district covers only a portion of the neighborhood. Furthermore, people who live there call it "Forest Hills," not "Forest Hills Boulevard Historic District." Bms4880 (talk) 17:50, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

That answers that question then. Thanks. Chris (talk) 19:19, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Another question. Shouldn't "Forest Hills" be "Forest Heights"? Chris (talk) 19:29, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Yep. Apparently Forest Hills is grouped as a subdivision of "Forest Heights." [2]. Bms4880 (talk) 21:40, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Good. I will fix the template and create the article for Forest Heights. Chris (talk) 21:50, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Ridgedale in Knoxville

Is Ridgedale part of Norwood? What I have pulled up has them near Norwood? Chris (talk) 14:25, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Wait— it's Riverdale that's listed on the register, not Ridgedale. Riverdale is in East Knox, near Moshina Heights. Bms4880 (talk) 14:49, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

If that is the case, I will change it to Riverdale if you have no objections to this. Chris (talk) 14:58, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, Riverdale seems to be in eastern Knox County, outside of Knoxville proper. Here's an article with a little bit of info about the area: [3] --Orlady (talk) 11:53, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Riverdale is at 35°57′54″N 83°45′46″W. The name appears on topographical maps, but not road maps. After analyzing census reference maps for Riverdale's zip code (37914), it does appear to be outside of Knoxville. If we create an article for Riverdale, we'll just put it in the MSA section. I requested Riverdale's NRHP nomination form, but the NPS said they have shipped away all of Knox County's nomination forms for scanning, and won't have them back until mid-July. Bms4880 (talk) 14:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Update

I have enough information from hard copy sources for articles for Bearden, East Knoxville, and West Knoxville. I'm not sure there is a need for North Knoxville, as it was basically Old North Knoxville and Fourth and Gill. We might move Downtown Knoxville to "Central Business District, Knoxville," as this term is very often used to describe Knoxville's downtown area, and appears frequently in the News-Sentinel. Bms4880 (talk) 22:56, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Does that mean that Bearden, East Knoxville, and West Knoxville will go back into the template? Chris (talk) 23:18, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Just Bearden. "East" and "West" are too big to be called neighborhoods. In the expanded template, we'll have "Geography" section that will include East, West, and Downtown. Bms4880 (talk) 14:24, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmm... The area generally called "West Knoxville" isn't a neighborhood and mostly isn't even in the city limits of Knoxville. That name is applied to pretty much everything between Bearden on the east and the town of Farragut or the Knox County line (whichever comes first) on the west. Similarly, "North Knoxville" is a vague term that incorporates Old North Knoxville, Fourth and Gill, North Hills, Fountain City, and points in between.

As for "Downtown Knoxville" and "Central Business District," the former is a term that regular people use (and that arguably appears far more often in the newspaper than "CBD", albeit often just as "downtown" -- for example: [4], [5], [6], [7], etc.), whereas "Central Business District" (CBD) is a term, applicable to any city, that is used primarily by statisticians and economists. As I see it, the problem with writing an article about "downtown Knoxville" has not been a question of whether this is a real name for the area, but rather has been a dearth of reliably sourced information to use as the basis for an article. Here's one good source: a market study prepared for the Downtown Knoxville Central Business Improvement District --Orlady (talk) 03:43, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I see. It'll just need to be reworded. That's an excellent source. Bms4880 (talk) 14:24, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Was Bearden ever re-added? The template is on the Bearden page but doesn't include the neighborhood. Aristophanes68 (talk) 21:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I've re-added it. The article needs a whole lot of work, though, and I haven't found much source material for it. I have a few things on the neighborhood's history, but that's about it. If you know of a source for exactly what area Bearden encompasses, or its demographics (even basic population), other than those found on user-generates sites, let me know. Bms4880 (talk) 22:10, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Rename

I came across this template only after Orlady pointed me in the right direction: because of its name, it doesn't pop up in the search window when one is typing "Template:Knoxville..." I am not sure if there are naming conventions for templates (well, I'm sure there are, but I don't know them), but I think "Template:Knoxville neighborhoods" is clear and simple and probably more in line with the MOS. Boston has one like that, for instance, and I'm sure other examples can be found.

I'd move this myself, but given the traffic on this talk page, and given the notorious spirit of independence of Tennesseans (don't shoot me--I'm not a federal agent coming to get your 'shine) I thought I'd take this up on the talk page. Thank you much, Drmies (talk) 18:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Template moved. Bms4880 (talk) 21:02, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Cool. Next we can decide if we want to implement Drmies' suggestion and create Template:Knoxville. There's a lot of good content about the city now, but I expect that a standard city template would also highlight some big gaps... --Orlady (talk) 02:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the original plan was to merge the neighborhoods template into a larger city template. What are some examples of good city templates? Bms4880 (talk) 14:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't really like any of the city templates I found, though Denver and Nashville are ok. I'll have to mold it to fit Knoxville somehow. I may work on it this weekend. Bms4880 (talk) 19:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)