User talk:Lenovya

November 2024

Read the rules of Wikipedia, starting from WP:CONACHIEVE and WP:CIVIL. Don't call edits vandalizm as you did here 1. You add a new information, your edit was removed to restore consensus-version and it's you who are to prove that your edits should remain. --Devlet Geray (talk) 18:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Devlet Geray Hello, I was not being uncivil. I would say you were by being sarcastic with your edit summary. The information is not new. If you check the article, it talks of millions being enslaved from different regions, and I gave an example in my edit summary. These claims are sourced, so what exactly do you want me to prove again? Lenovya (talk) 18:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, 1) how many millions - again is it 150 million? I see the article claims up to one million from Polish-Lituanian Commonwealth and up to 2 million from all places (so it's not "millions" as you call it) — hundreds of thousands would be more precise way to describe this figure, as millions may go from 2 million up to 999 milion. 2) if you mention a figure, then according to whom? as i have estimates saying that there were hundrends of thousands and as I see it is a consensus version of the article --Devlet Geray (talk) 18:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Devlet Geray I understand the point you bring up, but there is no WP rule to give an exact figure – unless I'm not aware of it, in which case I would like you to provide it for me. An exact figure also is pretty much impossible since countless raids occurred. However, sources provided in the article are clear that millions have been enslaved in a relatively short period of time in some regions pillaged by the Tatars; so it is definitely more than "hundreds of thousands".

The 2 million number is not the total amount enslaved by the Tatars in history. It is for a set period (1468–1694, a time of 226 years) and only accounts for Russians, Ukrainians, and Poles. Lenovya (talk) 18:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not you who should somehow add different estimates together, project these estimates on different territories, different periods and make your own predictions on how big that number should be. I would also remind you that there were no Raids of Crimean Khanate agaist Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth after Treaty of Karlowitz, that's why the given estimate is for a set period Devlet Geray (talk) 18:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Devlet Geray I'm unsure of what exactly you're trying to say here, but the sources are clear that millions have been enslaved. The total exact number is impossible to provide, but the article provides some particular information on the millions enslaved in specific regions on top of the one I already provided (e.g. "The largest captures of slaves occurred in the Dnieper, Podolia, Volhynia, and Galicia regions, with more than a million people taken from these lands between 1500 and 1644"). Lenovya (talk) 18:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is also such a phrase estimates that 150,000 to 200,000 people were abducted from Russia in the first half of the 17th-century Devlet Geray (talk) 19:04, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Devlet Geray Sure, that is for a smaller time-period (first half of the 17th century, so 1600-1650) and only accounts for Russia.

When we look at longer time-periods and across multiple countries, we can already see millions have been enslaved. Lenovya (talk) 19:06, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Source for millions? Are sources unanimous in this opinion, or are there different assessments? Devlet Geray (talk) 19:07, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Devlet Geray

Here are some I found with a short search;

The Crimeans reportedly took 40,000 captives in Volhynia, Podolia, and Galicia in 1676, and Bohdan Baranowski has estimated that an average of 20,000 Poles were captured each year, with total losses for the period 1500-1644 numbering about a million. p. 25.

Taking into consideration those slaves who perished while being transported, other scholars estimate the population losses to Poland- Lithuania and Muscovy from slave trading at 2 million people in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. p. 112.

Fisher estimates that in the sixteenth century Poland lost around 20,000 individuals a year and that from 1474 to 1694, as many as a million Poles were carried off into Crimean slavery. p. 27. Lenovya (talk) 19:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]