Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2011 March 18

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March 18

Category:Georgian escapees

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: No consensus to delete; Rename to Category:People from Georgia (country) who escaped. (Although I commented to suggest a form for renaming I didn't comment one way or the other on the substantial and this CFD has been open for a week longer than standard.) Timrollpickering (talk) 16:29, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Georgian escapees to Category:Escapees from Georgia (country)

Nominator's rationale: This was proposed on Speedy, but it doesn't work. However, given our mass migration from "Georgian" to "from Georgia (country)", something must change. I'm putting it here with no suggestion as to how it should change, in hopes someone will think of something better.-- Mike Selinker (talk) 15:31, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copy of Speedy nomination

Category:Georgian escapees to Category:Escapees from Georgia (country) — C2B - perWikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 March 10#Category:Georgian people andWikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 May 28#Category:Georgian culture, where other "Georgian" categories were renamed. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:24, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose until we can come up with something better. This one doesn't quite work, because the proposal is ambiguous—it could mean people who escaped from Georgia, when really it means escapees of Georgian nationality. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 07:54, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Why is the nationality of an escapee notable or defining? Also what do you have to be an escapee of, prison, detention, jail, oppression? Vegaswikian (talk) 23:28, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'm conceptually OK by an escapee by nationality category but this one only has a single article and the person, Chabua Amirejibi escaped from prisons in Siberia during the Soviet era so it's actually an escapee by ethnicity category. Category:Escapees from Soviet detention and Category:Georgian dissidents seem to cover the article pretty well. Do we really need this category? RevelationDirect (talk) 00:50, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Looking at the other categories in Category:Prisoners and detainees from Georgia (country) it would seem the form Category:People from Georgia (country) who escaped is the form to go for. Category:Escapees by nationality has a lot of small populated categories in it. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:49, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose proposed renaming. Is an "Escapee from Georgia (country)" someone, of any nationality, who was held in the country of Georgia and escaped? Or is it a person of Georgian nationality who was held anywhere (perhaps in Georgia itself, but perhaps in some other country) and escaped? Category:Escapees from Georgia (country) is thus too ambiguous to use. The existing Category:Georgian escapees at least indicates that it is meant to be the latter (persons of Georgian nationality who escaped from anywhere, not persons of any nationality who escaped from Georgia). --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:15, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Category:People from Georgia (country) who escaped per Timrollpickering seems to be the best choice here if the category is kept. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:55, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: While i appreciate the nuanced discussion of potentail uses, this cat isn't actually used so I favor getting rid of it. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:54, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- No objection to deletion.--Mike Selinker (talk) 00:47, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and rename to Category:People from Georgia (country) who escaped. The category is no longer empty (it includes Chabua Amirejibi, who was a multiple escapee), and per WP:OC#SMALL a small categ such as this is acceptable as part of the series Category:Escapees by nationality. Timrollpickering's suggestion seems to be the best option for rename. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:23, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
~~Delete as empty.~~ Amirejibi was born in November 1921 into what was then the Georgian SSR (proclaimed on 25 February 1921), so I have recategorized him into Category:Soviet escapees. More generally, while I favor the change from the ambiguous "Georgian" to the more precise "from Georgia (country)" in most cases, we should not forget that an independent country of Georgia did not exist from 1921 to 1991. Individuals categorized on the basis of events (e.g., births, escapes) that took place during that period should not, therefore, be categorized as being "from Georgia (country)". -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 19:09, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have restored Chabua Amirejibi to Category:Georgian escapees. There is no dispute over the fact that he was Georgian, and the fact that Georgian was not a fully independent state at the time of his escapes does not remove his Georgian-ness. Black Falcon's logic would have a devastating impact on categories relating to the history of countries which have not always been independent, and should not be pursued without a much wider consenus. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:22, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
!Vote struck. My removal of the article was in anticipation of the category being renamed to some form that includes "Georgia (country)", and Amirejibi's case is particularly complicated (he was born in 1921 in the Georgian SSR, but the GSSR did not become a part of the Soviet Union until 1922), so I don't entirely disagree with your revert. However, while there is no dispute that he was Georgian, there also can be no dispute over the fact that he was not "from" the country of Georgia until age 70. If we intend to categorize him based on his life after age 70, then in what way is that categorization by a defining characteristic?
I suppose, though, that my objection applies more generally to the current method of categorizing Soviet people as nationals of successor countries. It is blatantly inaccurate to categorize someone who was born in, lived in and (in many cases) died in one country (the Soviet Union) as a national of a separate, albeit successor, country. Perhaps what's needed is Category:Soviet people by republic, with subcategories such as Category:Soviet Georgian people... -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 17:25, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
BF, you are too fixated on the political status of Georgia. When Georgia became an independent country, it did not set up an appointments panel to choose new people; its citizens were Georgian people, who had been Georgian when it was an SSR, and would have remained Georgian even if the SSR had been wholly absorbed by Russia. We have similar issues wrt to many other nations whose statehood has been inconsistent, and your logic would lead us to some drastic steps:
Deleting rid of Category:Welsh people, since there has never been a formal position of Welsh citizenship

Purging Category:English people and Category:Scottish people of everyone born since 1707, since at that point there ceased to be an independent England and an indep Scotland.

What's so difficult about treating Category:People from Georgia (country) as including both those from the contemporary independent state of Georgia and those from its predecessor the Georgian SSR? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:37, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am focusing on the political status of Georgia only because of the "country" disambiguator: "Georgian" is a cultural and historical identity that transcends temporary political boundaries, whereas "Georgia (country)" is a political entity that is distinct from the Georgian SSR. You're correct that, when Georgia attained independence, "its citizens were Georgian people, who had been Georgian when it was an SSR". However, we're considering the phrase "Georgian (country)" and not "Georgian"; in this context, it does not work to state that 'its citizens were from the country of Georgia, who had been from the country of Georgia when it was an SSR'.

The examples of Category:Welsh people, Category:English people and Category:Scottish people are not analogous. For one thing, they use "Welsh", "English" and "Scottish" instead of "Wales (country)", "England (country)" and "Scotland (country)"; for another, Wales, England and Scotland are constituent countries of the UK, and the historical circumstances of the UK and USSR are quite different. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 06:17, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the status of the Georgian SSR as a constituent Republic of the Soviet Union is quite similar in principle to that of England or Scotland wrt to UK. Georgia, has now left the union, unlike Scotland, but despite all the historical differences the point at issue is quite similar.

If this is all about the disambiguator "country", then I think you are reading too much into the disambiguator. It was chosen to disambiguate it from the US State of the same name, and I don't see any sign of an intent to restrict the meaning of "country" to "independent nation state". If "country" doesn't mean solely an "independent nation state" when applied to Scotland, why restrict in that way wrt Georgia? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:09, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose that is one way to consider the status of Georgia in the USSR, though the Soviet Union was a far more centralized system than the UK: Scotland, though not an independent state, is recognised as a country, whereas the Georgian SSR had no real existence except as a part of the Soviet Union.

I realize, however, that my line of thought applies to the whole of the People from Georgia (country) category tree, and in fact to all of the 'former Soviet republican people' trees, and so it needs to be proposed at a higher-level discussion. I'm curious... was the format "Georgian (nationality) fooers" ever considered as an alternative to "Fooers from Georgia (country)"? -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 16:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Contemporary Métis installation artists

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Creator has emptied & cat already deleted. Timrollpickering (talk) 01:05, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Propose upmerging Category:Contemporary Métis installation artists

Nominator's rationale: Upmerge per WP:SMALLCAT Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:06, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The category creator has emptied the category and I have placed a speedy deletion tag, accordingly. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 17:58, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Pakistani fashion awards

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Upmerge. Timrollpickering (talk) 10:24, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's rationale: Delete (or should I say upmerge?) In any case, I think this is overcategorization. Both Category:Pakistani awards and Category:Fashion awards are small and keeping the current category would just isolate the lone article it contains. Pichpich (talk) 12:53, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Upmerge per nom, until more articles are created. RevelationDirect (talk) 00:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Monaghan

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 10:23, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming

Nominator's rationale: Rename both, to disambiguate the Irish town of Monaghan (to which this category refers) from the surrounding County Monaghan.
The town is the primary topic for the unqualified term "Monaghan", but the county is sometimes referred to simply as "Monaghan" rather than "County Monaghan", creating an ambiguity which leads to errors in categorisation. Similar disambiguators have been added to the categories for cities in Ireland which have eponymous counties : e.g. Category:People from Dublin (city), Category:People from Limerick (city), Category:People from Waterford (city). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:34, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom, there's also Monaghan in NI. 184.144.166.85 (talk) 05:07, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Member states

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Rename as follows:

Timrollpickering (talk) 10:19, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:African Union member states to Category:Member states of the African Union

Propose renaming Category:Arab League member states to Category:Member states of the Arab League

Propose renaming Category:Association of Southeast Asian Nations member states to Category:Member states of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations

Propose renaming Category:CARICOM members to Category:Member states of the Caribbean Community (or Category:Member states of CARICOM)

Propose renaming Category:Members of the Commonwealth of Nations to Category:Member states of the Commonwealth of Nations

Propose renaming Category:Members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to Category:Member states of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (or Category:Member states of NATO)

Propose renaming Category:OPEC member states to Category:Member states of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (or Category:Member states of OPEC)

Propose renaming Category:Organisation of the Islamic Conference members to Category:Member states of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference

Propose renaming Category:South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation member states to Category:Member states of the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation

Nominator's rationale: Matching other categories of Category:Member states by organization. This was the subject of a contested Speedy nomination.-- Mike Selinker (talk) 03:21, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

copy of Speedy discussion

Category:African Union member states to Category:Member states of the African Union —C2C. TAG-A-b10 (talk) 21:17, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe this one requires more discussion. Of the 12 subcategories of Category:Member states by organization, five follow the "Foo member states" naming standard, four follow the "Member states of Foo" format, and three use some other format. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 04:06, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Question. Shouldn't it be "... of OPEC" and "... of NATO" per OPEC/Category:OPEC and NATO/Category:NATO? Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 04:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It could indeed be. I've added the options to the nomination.--Mike Selinker (talk) 15:12, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with both the nomination and the tweak suggested by Good Ol’factory. Pichpich (talk) 12:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed Better use of English to rename them as such. IJA (talk) 13:28, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Rename all, using the "OPEC", "NATO", and "Caribbean Community" options, since these will match to the articles about the organizations. (The article for the Association of Southeast Asian Nations is at ASEAN, but the category is Category:Association of Southeast Asian Nations, so I think it's OK to rename that one as proposed for now until the parent category is renamed to match the article.) Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 05:05, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unbelievably, it looks like the ASEAN cat had been renamed the other way because it was "not a well-known acronym": CfD 2007/Mar/6.- choster (talk) 22:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree we could probably revisit that one. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 20:53, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

as The Creator of The NATO Members Category I Agree we use should The official title (acronym) instead of the Full Name since it's more professional that way. Coolhawks88 (talk) 21:33, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Kakamega

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Merge & rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:29, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Category:Kakamega to Category:Timaliidae, or renaming to Category:Kakamega (genus)

Propose renaming Category:Kakamega, Kenya to Category:Kakamega

Nominator's rationale: The genus Kakamega has only one species, the Grey-chested Illadopsis, so a category for the genus will never have more than one article, unless a new species is discovered or evolves. The category for the genus should be upmerged (or, if there is no consensus for that, renamed to Category:Kakamega (genus)), and the category for the Kenyan town should be renamed to match its main article, Kakamega. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 00:28, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Marsabit

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:19, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Category:Marsabit to Category:Marsabit District

Nominator's rationale: There is, at this time, insufficient material to warrant an eponymous category for the town. The category contains only four articles, of which one is the main article and two are about topics (the mountain and the national park) located near, not in, the town. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 00:17, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Approve Marsabit is an important town, I created the category, and some of the other Kenya categories nominated on this page, knowing that more articles would be written about these places; as these articles are not yet written I have no problem with the town categories being merged with the district categories. I have been inactive on Wikipedia for a long time or I might have written some articles myself. Cheers. Mr Accountable (talk) 19:41, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. RevelationDirect (talk) 00:53, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fergie

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: self-close. Category creator agreed to the change and made the change. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:56, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Fergie to Category:Fergie (singer)

Nominator's rationale: Rename. I suggest renaming to match the article Fergie (singer). Fergie is ambiguous. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 00:09, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support highly ambiguous, given that it should be about the Duchess of York. 65.95.13.139 (talk) 02:51, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support – per nom. (Or Alex Ferguson.) Occuli (talk) 11:16, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, after talking to Good Olfactory, since I'm the creator and primary editor of the category, I have deleted "Category:Fergie" (with a link to this discussion) and re-created it at "Category:Fergie (singer)". I should have created it with that title to begin with, but it's fixed now to match her main article, and I think this can be closed. Thanks. Acalamari 10:57, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.