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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 September 23

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September 23

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Category:Images of people replacing placeholders

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete.--Mike Selinker (talk) 18:55, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Propose deleting:
Nominator's rationale: Delete. Unnecessary level of bureaucracy. The function of checking image usage is done elsewhere and there is no need to have it done in relation to replacing placeholder images. Note that placeholders, particular for biographical articles, have been deprecated. The only subcategory Category:Reviewed images of people replacing placeholders is of the same ilk. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 20:20, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I want the sub-cat deleted as well. It is of even less use - and of no use if its parent is deleted. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 20:18, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So add it to the nomination, and you'll have my support. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:45, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I thought my nomination suggested that the subcat should also go. Now added at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_September_27#Category:Reviewed_images_of_people_replacing_placeholders. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 19:15, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Book publishing companies

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Speedy rename C2C. Timrollpickering (talk) 20:52, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per convention, i.e. Category:Book publishing companies based in California, etc. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:05, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:English literary awards

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep.--Mike Selinker (talk) 18:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Merge. Too indiscriminate. British/UK topics are not organized by country of origin (the UK is not a country) and it's difficult to determine if an award should be UK or England, and confusing for readers (detail in comment below). --Green Cardamom (talk) 17:56, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment (by nom). As background, prior to July 2011, there was no Category:English literary awards, all British awards were filed under Category:British literary awards. In 2011, Category:English literary awards was created along with Category:Scottish literary awards & Category:Welsh literary awards as child cats of Category:British literary awards. Presumably, it makes logical sense for Scotland and Wales. However, England and the UK is a unique situation because it is an overlapping sovereign state and 90% of more of the literary awards in England are either by UK institutions or for UK authors; or don't say if they are specific to England or the UK or the Commonwealth. It is uncertain, redundant and arguable which category to place an award, England or UK. If one believes categories are strictly for the award's host country, than Category:British literary awards would be empty (the UK is not a country). However many of the awards based in England are by UK institutions and/or for UK authors, though for many also it is uncertain. It's quite confusing and unclear when you start looking at the awards individually. It's also confusing for readers to determine which category to look under - one ends up with a fairly arbitrary (and arguable) split with some awards under the British category, and others under the English category (and many people outside the UK don't know the difference between "England" and "UK"). Readers shouldn't need to care if an award is incorporated as a UK vs England entity when they are physically headquartered in the same place. The UK is a more encompassing/common entity thus it makes sense to make it the default for all awards in England. --Green Cardamom (talk) 05:30, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep (i.e. do not merge) and populate with awards issued by people or organisations based in England, which is a simple and objective test. I agree with the author that literary awards may be restricted in many different ways, so any attempt to define a "British" award would be a nightmare. So it's much better to just categorise awards by the location of the awarding body, which in some (many?) cases will be an NGO or a company. They are already categorised by location, under Category:Organisations based in England or Category:Companies based in England, so the award categorisation can follow suit.
    This also follows the common practice in categorisation, whereby categories relating to the United Kingdom are sub-categorised under England/Scotland/Wales/N.Ireland. I would prefer to use the noun form of the country rather than the ambiguous (and sometimes non-neutral) adjectives, so that the scope of the categories would be readily apparent from a title along the lines of "Literary awards based in England/Scotland/Wales/N.Ireland/UK", but that would require a wider discussion on renaming. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:36, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
" issued by people or organisations based in England" - All the Scotland, Wales and Ireland articles are already separate. The only ones left are the ones in England. What you're proposing is that there be no articles in the British category, because every award there is already based in England. There is also the consideration of Category:British children's literary awards, Category:British poetry awards and Category:British science fiction and fantasy awards which have a lot of articles and currently don't overlap with the main category. If we moved everything into England, would we change the name to Category:English children's literary awards? What about the genre awards for Scotland, Wales, create new cats for them? This creates fragmentation for a small number of articles. There would be no encompassing British view of things. I understand the logic of "based in", but with awards, most of them fall within the scope of the UK in terms of where they draw winners from, most of them are thought of as being UK awards. In fact I don't know of any England-only awards (there might be some, I've gone through every article and never saw one). Until/if the categories are renamed to "Literary awards based in..", we should keep all the awards based in England in one category, and British makes the most sense since most of them are British in terms of the scope of the award. Green Cardamom (talk) 16:05, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If all the awards are based in England, then they should be categorised under England, and the British category will become a {{container category}}. There is nothing unusual about this; it apples to many other UK categories.
Per my reply below to Peter, a large number of the awards which you claim have a UK scope for eligibility actually have a wider scope. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:37, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Right we don't know what the overlap would be. More below (you actually replied to me below). Green Cardamom (talk) 17:46, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Define properly then Purge -- The criterion should not be where the awarding body is based, but what residnetial or otehr criterion for winning there may be. If the prize is limited to people living in England, it is clearly an English award, but if it is open to any one in GB (or UK) it is clearly a British award. Nationalist sentiment is strong in Scotland and Northern Ireland and has generated such manifestations as SCottish and Welsh awards; it has been less strong in England. though I suspect there may be a backlash is the other home antions try to dominate the English. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Nationalist sentiment" as you put it, is also strong in England, but manifests differently. Mostly in the conflation of Britain and England. Many of the Scottish and Welsh awards are available to people elsewhere. The main reason these exist, is because the Scots and the Welsh are fairly marginalised/peripheral within British media contexts.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:22, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Peter, I think that the discussion would go better if it avoided being sidetracked from literary matters into opining about nationalism.
Your idea of categorising the wards by their geographical elegibility is an interesting one, but it would require a radical restructuring of all similar categories. It would also remove from both the British and English categories a large number of the awards currently contained there, because many of them do not restrict their eligibility to either people from Great Britain or those from the UK. The list of those which would not fit your definition is huge, and includes: Man Booker Prize, Guardian First Book Award, Geoffrey Faber Memorial Prize, Best science book ever, The Big Read, Bridport Prize, Christopher Ewart-Biggs Memorial Prize, Thomas Cook Travel Book Award, Samuel Johnson Prize, Rossica Translation Prize, Costa Book Awards, Rose Mary Crawshay Prize, John Whiting Award, Bread and Roses Award, Boardman Tasker Prize for Mountain Literature.
Are you sure that is what you want to achieve? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:47, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: We do categorize some awards on scope, see Category:Literary awards by region. It would be possible for award to be in two categories, one for home of award (England) and the other for scope (UK). Assuming the British category were moved to the Region parent cat, and out of the its current Country parent cat (which makes logical sense since the UK is not a country). However, I think this scheme would be complex and not intuitive. But, we are already doing it for Category:Commonwealth literary awards, so perhaps doable. The only concern is so much overlap since most of the England awards are also UK awards. Green Cardamom (talk) 20:32, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The UK is a country; it just happens to be an unusual country which consists of 4 constituent countries. The British category should remain where it is, categorised alongside other countries as we do with all other by-country categories.
Categorising awards by scope of eligibility would be a complex exercise, because as I note above, many of the awards which you want to label as "British" have a scope which extends beyond the UK. Unless we are going to create categories for every perumutation of eligibility, they should be in Category:International literary awards. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:45, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell the United Kingdom is not labeled a country, it's a sovereign state composed of four constituent country. These are technical terms though and probably too specific to worry about for Category purposes.
As for scope of eligibility, I think you confused what I was saying. We currently don't delineate the UK awards by scope. The "British literary awards" is an ambiguous catch-all, it "could" mean scope (but not necessarily), but definitely home of award. If OTOH we wanted to have precise scope and home, we would have to move all the awards currently in "British literary awards" to "English literary awards" for home of award, and then some sub-set of those would be in an additional category for British scope, under the Regional literary awards. Since there would be so many articles, it would make sense to have a unique UK region category, like we already have for Scandinavia, Commonwealth, Caribbean etc. I don't know how big the overlap really is. Probably it would need to be called "Literary awards with a United Kingdom eligibility" or something to avoid confusion with where it is based. Green Cardamom (talk) 17:46, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I think this should be kept, as there are umpteen categories related to the English and England. However, I do think that "English" here is ambiguous, since it could refer to either English language or something to do with England.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:20, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • How about Category:Literary awards of England (country)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.96.102 (talk) 03:00, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • McRusgail is right that "English literary awards" is ambiguous. However, it doesn't just have two possible meanings. There are three: 1) country from which the award is issued; 2) language of the literature; 3) geographical eligibility.
        So we do need a renaming to resolve this triple ambiguity, but I would prefer that it was done consistently across all the sub-cats of Category:Literary awards by country. Similar ambiguities apply to Category:French literary awards, Category:German literary awards, Category:Spanish literary awards, and many others where the adjective has the three meanings listed above ... and even where the country name does not indicate a language, there is still ambiguity between points 1 and 3. We should get a comprehensive solution to the ambiguity in a separate discussion, and leave this discussion to focus on whether to merge these two geographical categories. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:48, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Geographical eligibility at this point is only done for awards with a inter-country scope (Scandinavia, Caribbean). We don't do intra-country eligibility. For small region awards, like British Columbia writer awards, the awards is categorized under "Canada literary awards", and under "British Columbia culture". There are categories for language eligibility. Keep in mind there are not many literary awards articles on Wikipedia (a few thousand) so we don't need to go overboard on category creation because it would fragment things I believe and be counter-productive to the point of categorizing. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 19:46, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Antisemitism

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: procedural close. Whatever the substantive merits or demerits of this proposal, it is very misleading for the nominator to present signed comments by other editors as if they had been posted in this discussion. All of them were in fact posted elsewhere, and the presentation here misleads other editors about the context in which those comments were made. The use of my own sig in a quote in the first paragraph gives the misleading impression that I was the nominator here, whereas the nomination was posted in these edits by Liftarn (talk · contribs).
Where editors wish to quote other editors, they should do so in such a way as to make sure that it is abundantly clear that they are being quoted. For example, they should not include the personal sigs of those editors, and should preferably include a diff of where the comment was made so that the quotes can be verified.
I am sure that this was a good faith misunderstanding by the nominator, but it is better to close the discussion immediately rather than have it marred by an procedural wrangle. The nominator (or any other editor) should feel free to start a new nomination which is formatted in the conventional way, and which takes care to indicate the source of any quotes. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:19, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Per the precedence stated at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 September 4#Category:Anti-Islam we now should merge Category:Antisemitism to Category:Anti-Judaism.

Nominator's rationale: "it seems to me that the most persuasive argument was that to adopt the format of the other sub-categories of Category:Opposition to religion, which is "Anti-Foo"." Please note that since there is no consensus for this particular name, editors should free to immediately nominate Category:Anti-Islam for renaming, whether on its own or as part of a wider group nomination to include Category:Anti-Christianity, Category:Anti-Judaism etc. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Adaptations of The Magic Flute

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Speedy rename C2C. Timrollpickering (talk) 20:54, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Nearly all subcategories of Category:Works based on literature have subcategories in the format of "Works based on (X)." This is an outlier from that format.-- Mike Selinker (talk) 04:23, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Adaptations of Chinese literature

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Speedy rename C2C. Timrollpickering (talk) 20:55, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Chinese literature adaptations
Nominator's rationale: Nearly all subcategories of Category:Works based on literature have subcategories in the format of "Works based on (X)." These are outliers from that format.-- Mike Selinker (talk) 04:23, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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