Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 8

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November 8[edit]

Federal Republic of Yugoslavia[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. There is consensus that the count4ry should be referred to as "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" rather than "Yugoslavia". Despite this RM failing, the arguments there are not entirely applicable here (mostly because the RM was discussing "Serbia and Montenegro" as a target). (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 18:00, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Romania in 1881-1918 (purple) was significantly smaller than later versions. Nevertheless, we don't change the country name in year categories.
The Kingdom of Serbia in 1882-1913 (dark red) and after 1913 (both). The chronology categories use Serbia all along.
Poland before WWII (white and grey areas) and after WWII (white and pink). Chronology categories always use just Poland.
Nominator's rationale: rename to clarify that this is not about Yugoslavia but about the later rump state. There was no consensus in an earlier discussion to rename to "Serbia and Montenegro".
@Number 57, Joy, Vipz, Santasa99, Joseph2302, Stevie fae Scotland, GiantSnowman, and Place Clichy: courtesy ping to contributors to previous discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sure, definitely move it away from "Yugoslavia", though I still think this should just be Serbia and Montenegro, though, because that's the common name and it would connect it to Category:2003 in Serbia and Montenegro. There's more argumentation at e.g. Talk:May 1992 Yugoslavian parliamentary election#Requested move 3 November 2023. --Joy (talk) 21:19, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe merge Category:Years in Yugoslavia and Category:Years in Serbia and Montenegro to solve that problem? That would maintain historically accurate names and also create the desired link between the two? GiantSnowman 21:49, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    No, because those are distinct countries. Please see definitions of Yugoslavia and Serbia and Montenegro in the article space, they're distinguished by the breakup of Yugoslavia, most of which was internationally recognized at the turn of '92. --Joy (talk) 08:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support to reflect the historically accurate name. GiantSnowman 21:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - my opinion is in line with Joy's, but this is as good as we can get in this moment..--౪ Santa ౪99° 06:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as is. Separate chronology trees for each regime change are counter-productive. We don't have separate category trees between the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and the Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia. Sure borders of countries change, and a significant part of Yugoslavia left the country in the early 1990s, but the part that was left still called itself Yugoslavia. To take another example in the same region, the borders of Serbia were significantly different before and after 1913, but we still consider that it is the same country. (The same can be said of Bulgaria, Romania, Greece etc., see pictures to the right) Place Clichy (talk) 10:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not a regime change for Christ's sake. The same people were in power at the federal level when the secession of a major part of the republics caused the country to dissolve. But we're going into a weird level of detail here. Can you please read the fine breakup of Yugoslavia article and at least some of its 78 references? Are you honestly going to be arguing against the consensus of the international community and scholarship here? Frankly I don't see how to not see this as a violation of WP:ARBMAC because it's gaslighting us 30 years after the fact. --Joy (talk) 12:18, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    And what's with this placement of pictures in the discussion ([1])? I don't think I've ever seen that done. It sounds like a bit of a game on the normal ordering of the textual discussion. --Joy (talk) 12:24, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    "Us"? Who is us? I don't see any answer here to the points I made that 1°) FR Yugoslavia called itself "Yugoslavia" between 1992 and 2003 and 2°) there are many other cases where countries significantly changed shape, territory and political regime but where, with reason, chronology categories are not split or renamed for each of these changes. Regarding point 1°) it is in fact not unlike the case of the Republic of Macedonia, which called itself as such (the "constitutional name") between 1991 and 2019, while participating in international organizations under another name (the "provisional name"). Many users here argued, if I remember correctly, for the self-defined constitutional name to be used, e.g. in the title of articles and categories. We should probably have a similar attitude towards the 1992-2003 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. But in fact this is largely the case, see e.g. the article for the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. Place Clichy (talk) 20:30, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Us as in your fellow editors in this discussion. The fact that FRY called itself "Yugoslavia" between those years is immaterial, because we have it documented how the international community objected to that and argued against it in multiple venues, from the United Nations onwards. This is well documented in reliable sources. We've been over this, and yet these spurious arguments keep coming up as if facts don't matter. Sorry, but this is like listening to FRY state propaganda in the '90s, and it's expressly prohibited by WP:ARBMAC since 2007. Stop doing it. The fact that the bombing article is named like that could well be a mistake, using Wikipedia titles as some sort of a precedent is a weird violation of WP:CIRCULAR. --Joy (talk) 08:04, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    "Propaganda"... "prohibited"... "violation"... "stop"... respectfully, I think you're getting on high horses. I think I made my point clear enough and won't pursue here further this dialogue of the deaf. Place Clichy (talk) 09:59, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Any points based on an apparent failure to observe basic policies such as WP:Verifiability are simply not a basis for an actual dialogue, especially in topic areas known to be contentious. --Joy (talk) 16:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - As I said in the previous discussion, this is a sensible move as it removes ambiguity between SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia which became Serbia and Montenegro as well as maintaining historical accuracy. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 22:36, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support Joy's points are well made. Despite the use of the name Yugoslavia, this categorisation implies an encyclopaedic continuity between the preceding Yugoslavia and the 1992+ rump that is completely unhelpful. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was but a fragment of what had been Yugoslavia (whether the interwar kingdom or post-WWII socialist republic), and the current categorisation achieves nothing but additional confusion. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:15, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: there is an open discussion with impact on this one. At Talk:May 1992 Yugoslavian parliamentary election § Requested move 3 November 2023, there is a consensus building whether to use "Yugoslavia" or "Serbia and Montenegro" to call the country in the period between 1992 and 2003. I believe we should follow the verdict of this widely attended RM, when it is closed. Place Clichy (talk) 22:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, if there's anything I'd call these discussions, it's not consensus building. It's a pattern of people voicing opinions with often weak argumentation, which I refute and then often get ignored, and which has now been closed with just a no consensus to move outcome, which I've appealed to the closer because of what you just did there. --Joy (talk) 04:56, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It is not because consensus it near unanimous against your peculiar reading of history (the single editor who did not oppose your proposal [1][2] did in fact give arguments in favour of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia instead of either Serbia and Montenegro or plain Yugoslavia[n]) that you can discard it. The discussion was not closed as a "no consensus" result". The full closing comment is (bold in the original: "not moved. There's no consensus to move here." This comes after a previous move discussion (in 2011) had ended with the same result. Place Clichy (talk) 08:37, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The proposal there was to use 'Serbia and Montenegro', and that was opposed; in this case the destination is just 'Federal Republic of Yugoslavia', which is the compromise option, and you can clearly see from the responses both there and here that it's acceptable to most people. --Joy (talk) 10:57, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Per Joy and Peacemaker67. This was neither a regime change nor a change of borders. The country of Yugoslavia ceased to exist in 1992 and the succeeding country of the "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia", despite its best efforts, did not convince the worldwide audience that it was the same country. –Vipz (talk) 19:57, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • (comment) In the meantime, someone noticed more little incongruent timeline categories in Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 20, and likewise a number of smaller timeline categories got moved via the CFDS mechanism where nobody objected at all. As the consensus support for this is quite apparent by now, can someone please conclude this one as well? We're not going to get any new arguments (WP:SNOW). --Joy (talk) 16:51, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The closing of a parallel move discussion in the opposite direction certainly takes us out of the realm of WP:SNOW. Place Clichy (talk) 08:37, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    See above. Even in the other discussion people were generally fine with saying FRY. --Joy (talk) 10:57, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:National Arts Club Medal of Honor Recipients[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: delete, not a defining characteristic and per WP:OCAWARD. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:05, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Alcohol-related deaths in the Russian Empire[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Alcohol-related deaths in Russia. (non-admin closure) Edward-Woodrow (talk) 21:46, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: small underpopulated overlapping category where regime is not defining Mason (talk) 14:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Bangladeshi people of Uzbek descent[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:People of Uzbekistani descent. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:00, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Frequent confusion between Uzbeks, which is an ethnic group in Central Asia spread over several countries (see Category:Uzbeks and Category:People of Uzbek descent) and Uzbekistani people i.e. people from Uzbekistan, which are not all Uzbeks (see Category:Uzbekistani people and Category:People of Uzbekistani descent). The lone article in this category, Abdul Halim Bukhari, states that his great-grandfather "had migrated [...] from Bukhara in Uzbekistan" and makes no mention of ethnicity in the Central Asian sense, and therefore belongs in the Uzbekistani descent category. Place Clichy (talk) 14:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Tuberculosis deaths in Australia by state or territory[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 13:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: 1 category, not helpful for navigation Mason (talk) 13:43, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Tuberculosis deaths in the Russian Empire[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 22#Category:Tuberculosis deaths in the Russian Empire

Category:Deaths in the Kingdom of Prussia[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 16#Category:Deaths in the Kingdom of Prussia

Category:Deaths in the Kingdom of Bavaria[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 16#Category:Deaths in the Kingdom of Bavaria

Category:60 Minutes producers[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: listify and delete. I didn't find a matching list for this category. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:02, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: We do not categorise producers by the television programmes the produce. WP:PERFCAT. --woodensuperman 12:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:60 Minutes (Australian TV program) correspondents[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: listify and delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:06, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:PERFCAT --woodensuperman 12:22, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

News presenter categories[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 22#News presenter categories

Category:Indo-European peoples templates[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: split. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:19, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: split, trivial intersection with language family, various precedents such as Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_August_9#Category:Indo-European_archaeological_sites. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional Arabs[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 22#Category:Fictional Arabs

Category:Morgan family of Kentucky[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 18:06, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Want to loop in the connected Hunts like Abijah Hunt. Name of new cat based on Hunt–Morgan House and arguably most famous member John Hunt Morgan. jengod (talk) 05:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:17, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People from Ottoman Palestine by ethnic or national origin[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 14:18, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: only two categories, makes it much harder for nativation Mason (talk) 04:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge, redundant category and also inaccurate. This is about ethnicity, not about descent. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:48, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Tatar people of the Soviet Union[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 22#Category:Tatar people of the Soviet Union

Category:Dinjčić noble family[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 22#Category:Dinjčić noble family

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