Hi, I don't believe Delete !voters correctly applied WP:BLP1E in this case. For BLP1E it must pass all three criteria, including #3 which says: "It is not the case the event is significant and the individual's role within it is substantial and well-documented". It goes on to say "The significance of an event or individual is indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources." Looking at the sources, it appears to have WP:PERSISTENCE. Non-persistence means: "only covered in sources published during or immediately after an event, without further analysis or discussion". The media has covered it over years, even crossing over to a book of chapter length.
Persistent coverage of an event makes it significant, which disqualifies it from BLP1E per criteria #3, thus invalidating the Delete votes in the AfD leaving basically only my single Keep. I would be OK with a relist too since a discussion of persistence didn't come up during the AfD (I wasn't paying close enough attention). Green Cardamom (talk) 18:44, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My explanatory comment on Green Cardmom's talk page: -- KTC (talk) 18:57, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
“
Hi, you had raised those points and sources during the deletion discussions and it was rebutted by at least one other participant. Since their interpretation of policies involved are within valid range to be considered, I cannot disregard their opinion. Taking their argument into account, there were in my opinion a clear consensus for deletion.
”
(You then said take it to DRV if I disagreed, which is I didn't follow our private conversation further). To respond: the Delete votes did not rebut WP:PERSISTENCE, the word does not appear anywhere in the AfD, it was however demonstrated by the source list with dates. The sources are plainly persistent, meaning BLP1E is not a valid argument. Again, I'm sorry I did not make this more clear in the AfD. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 20:22, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I did. It's normal for the XfD closer to explain their rationale, especially if it's not in the original closing statement. Since I wrote my rationale in my reply to you on your user talk, I copied it over here. Regards -- KTC (talk) 21:37, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - Not all editors subscribe to this extremely narrow interpretation of BLP1E. For others, it is a simple matter of if one subtracts the single event, wouls reliable sources discuss this person in any way, shape or form? With the saturation of 24/7 media, virtually any news-of-the-day story like this will be rehashed on anniversaries, in context of a similar situation, etc... and many, many people extend their proverbial 15 minutes of fame for as long as they possibly can. Wikipedia editors can and routinely do judge what who a one-event individual and who is not. By all measurement of common sense and broad interpretation of policy, it was judged that this person's story, while heroic, was a one-hit wonder. Tarc (talk) 20:28, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Persistence and significant coverage is not a narrow reading. BLP1E was designed to protect private individuals from undo media exposure. It was not meant to prevent cases where someone has had persistent media coverage over time. Also this has been called iconic, had a chapter length in a book etc.. it's not typical. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 20:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
BLP1E was designed to prevent articles about news-of-the-moment stories from being created. What smattering of continued coverage there is is still reported in the context of the original event; this person has done nothing else to warrant coverage in reliable sources since. No one is going to overturn a deletion when your entry was the lone keep vs. 5 opinions to delete, unless the deletion calls were crystal-clear "delete it sucks!" nonsense. Allowance for and respect of an opposing opinion has to be respected here. Tarc (talk) 22:43, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It can be relisted so that significance-by-persistence can brought into the discussion. The topic probably does have persistent coverage per the definition at WP:PERSISTENCE. This is the discussion that should have taken place in the AfD. The word "persistent" does not appear anywhere in the AfD, no one brought it up, it wasn't discussed. I seriously believe the Delete voters were unaware of this aspect of BLP1E. It would not be the first time, I often explain BLP1E to people who don't understand basic things like low profile requirement. It's a complex rule often misunderstood and misapplied. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 00:24, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm well-aware of persistence, but do not give it much weight in this age of 24/7 media that covers everything from Lady Gaga's underwear color to what the President of the United States will have on his Thanksgiving table in 2 days' time. I'd advise you remove the patronizing tone from your comments from here on out, and stop assuming that those who hold a different point of view "don't understand" such "complex" matters. 5 editors hold a point of view opposing to your own, that's all there is here. Tarc (talk) 01:14, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We've got to endorse. Closers need the confidence that when they follow the consensus, DRV will support them. The declining number of active editors on Wikipedia does skew things, and sometimes at AfD nowadays, only the deletionists show up to !vote. This is one of those cases and what can you do? I mean, I have great sympathy with the nominator here. It seems obvious to me that this kind of thing isn't what BLP1E was meant for. When an incident took place in 2005 and people are still writing about it in 2013, that's pretty clear evidence that the incident is significant and can be covered. But Wikipedia is increasingly full of Rain Man-types who think that wherever a rule can be applied, it must always be applied; and WP:Editorial judgment is still a redlink. When these people are in such an overwhelming majority DRV can't fault the closer: KTC had no choice but to find as she did.
In my view the way to tackle it is to write an article about the incident and put in a redirect from Michael Burghart to that. I know it's pathetic but once you've done that, BLP1E no longer applies because it's not a biography. It's reasonable to ask for the article to be userfied to facilitate this exercise.—S MarshallT/C 21:35, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for recognizing BLP1E was possibly misapplied here due to (arguably) persistent coverage. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 00:24, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse While some individuals known for one event are exempted from the rule due to the significance of the event in question, what exactly qualifies as significant enough for an exemption is up to the community. I think consensus is pretty clear here. It more or less a judgment call, in that James Blake Miller's one notable event has been deemed significant but Michael Burghardt's has not, but that's the nature of the system we have at this point. Mark Arsten (talk) 22:14, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. Consensus at the discussion was clear that Burghardt is notable only in the context one event, and that this one event does not make him sufficiently notable for a biographical article. Thryduulf (talk) 23:08, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse at five to one there's simply no chance this possibly could have been closed any other way. You're welcome as always to disagree but it's pretty ridiculous to pretend that your vote is somehow more correct than the other five and thus should trump everyone else. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 04:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The more people who vote one way makes that way more correct. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 05:19, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn to no consensus as the XfD is clearly in error: no weight should have been assigned to the !votes citing BLP1E. BLP1E does not apply when there is continuing coverage, and the sources listed cover three years. Jclemens (talk) 07:35, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This doesn't meet the definition of a BLP1E. Local consensus can override our guidelines and this looks like such a case. I can't endorse this because it's clearly contrary to our rules, but given the !votes, I don't see how the closer could have done anything else. Even a relist for a defective discussion isn't reasonable here. I'd suggest we wait until yet more sources show up (and they will) and try again at that time. Hobit (talk) 08:57, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse but with considerable regret. It is a shame to be hiding potentially valuable articles (provided they are harmless) so that only admins can look at them. Such is life. WP:BLP1E is there to protect individuals, not to ensure that worthy people get an article. It can be a strong policy reason for deletion but not for undeletion. WP:1EVENT is a relevant notability guideline and I think that it is this, and not BLP1E, that applies here. Looking closely I think some of the AFD "deletes" were using this guidance. Also, the nomination rationale, WP:SOLDIER, is a notability rather than a BLP consideration. Even if a topic meets the notability threshold for presuming an an article is warranted, people may, with reason, think an article should be deleted. In this case they did. Thincat (talk) 09:02, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse- There is no way the discussion could have been closed any other way. The participants clearly felt that this article does not meet the spirit of WP:1EVENT or WP:BLP1E. Editors' discretion is still a thing, fortunately. ReykYO! 22:23, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse as consensus is abundantly clear, regardless of whether or not we agree. – Juliancolton | Talk 20:39, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
T:WPTECH – There's no consensus to overturn the "no consensus" closure, so... let's just agree to disagree. – Sandstein 10:10, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
I closed this discussion about a group of redirects as no consensus. I explained my reasoning for doing so in the closing statement (very basically the arguments presented about the actual redirects under discussion were about balanced), and suggested that renominating in a different way would be more likely to result in consensus. Two of the participants have voluminously objected to my reading of the discussion as no consensus at my talk page (user talk:Thryduulf/archive12#"WTF?" regarding an RfD close) where I have attempted to explain further. John Vandenberg believes that my having participated in a discussion a few years ago about T: redirects means I am not a neutral regarding this discussion. Accordingly I'm bringing the closure here for review. Thryduulf (talk) 09:06, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - the batch nomination was clearly misguided - it resulted in a bunch of mismashed discussions that can't really be synthesized, so "no consensus" is basically all you can do. The delete argument of "I don't like it" is a lot weaker than the keep argument of "it's useful" (which is a hard sell for articles, but an easy sell for redirects), even if the number balance the other way, again tending towards "no consensus". A couple discussions of individual template, but most comments are generalised, making it dubious that any could be closed individually. WilyD 10:24, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The downsides of pseudo-namespaces are quite well-known: they take away names from the set of possible article titles, defeat separation of encyclopædic content from Wikipedia organisation and confuse and/or create unnecessary special cases for bots and tools which depend on this division (maintenance lists of pages, Special:Search, the API, etc.), all for the sake of people who are too lazy to type ten characters. There is no need to repeat these reasons every time.
I disagree about there being "a bunch of mismashed discussions". There were three topics in this discussion: the nomination as a whole, the merits of pseudo-namespaces in general and T:R from specifically — all quite relevant. I think most votes belonged in the first group. And so what if some comments also talked about pseudo-namespaces in general? Are you implying it makes these opinions invalid? Keφr 11:01, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with this is that the assertion that the existence of T:WPTECH takes away a possible article title is too silly to be taken seriously (and in the exceedingly unlikely event there's ever an article that might reasonably be placed at T:WPTECH, our great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandchildren (assuming they're editors) can fix it easily enough). That's probably a worse argument than a straight, honest, naked appeal to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. There's an overarching discussion of basically "it's useful" vs. "I don't like it" that applies to all the redirects, plus several comments that focus on individual (or small groups) of redirects. One might parse those, but since the overriding discussion ignores it, it becomes impossible to pull out a specific consensus in the cacophony of voices talking about different things. WilyD 11:35, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I find it hard to think about the "idontlikeit" argument, brought up here as if it were used by someone. I did not see that one in the RfD's, or I must have skipped them while reading for being not relevant to the discussion at all a priori. And that is what any closer should do too. The weighing of "ilikes" versus "idontlikes", both idle and weightless, is no business at all for a XFD/DRV closure. So for this WilyD argumentation. -DePiep (talk) 06:34, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn There is exactly one person claiming that exactly one redirect is "useful" to them. And then during the course of the discussion that user discovered a better way of doing what they were using the redirect for that didn't involve using that redirect. There are also two others who appear to have been mislead into thinking the nomination was for the entire pseudo-namespace (of one this is blatantly clear, the other is much less so). On the other side, we have several editors finding that these redirects in particular have an extremely low likelihood of being useful given the objective evidence of their very low pageview stats. But apparently these all are rejected because they didn't go through the list and state this individually for each redirect being nominated? Regarding the conflict between "This is useless" and "I find it useful", how does it come out exactly the opposite way in the very next discussion on the page? Regarding the supervote contention, it is very suspicious that the close is the same as the closer's !vote the last time this came up and contained blatant factual inaccuracies. Anomie⚔ 14:58, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. Whatever happens to these harmless T: pseudo-namespace shortcuts, the first and "major" exception noted at WP:RFD#D6 will continue to work in favor of keeping, or at the very least of not coming to consensus for deleting, any shortcut that has been or will be created to be used in any pseudo-namespace. – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 19:14, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Something not being a reason to delete doesn't automatically make it a reason not to delete. Anomie⚔ 19:48, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Forgive me, but that's just semantics. The wording is clear: Pseudo-namespace shortcuts are a "major" exception. Is there another item in WP:RFD#DELETE that clearly applies to this submission? May I also say that if one user comes to a discussion and expresses the usefulness and helpfulness of a redirect, how many other users does s/he symbolically represent? Just because few users may know the "secret" of T: transclusion does not in the least take away their usefulness as shortcut links to their targets on talk pages, template /doc pages, and so on. I sincerely feel that it is a monumental waste of time to try to delete these shortcuts, let alone to have to defend them when they are automatically defended by community consensus and by D6. – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 11:04, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but if you think the difference there is "just semantics", there's no point in continuing to discuss it with you. Anomie⚔ 14:23, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
:>) Anomie, I am more than happy to discuss any arguments that may arise, semantics or otherwise. If what you said is more than "just semantics", then maybe I was wrong. Here is what I read:
"Something not being a reason to delete..."
"...doesn't automatically make..."
"...it (something) (being) a reason not to delete."
By switching the word "not" around, your sentence implies that less weight should be given to the "major" exception in WP:RFD#D6, isn't that so? Forgive me if I take exception to your meaning. Such a "major" exception should not be ignored, nor should its impact be lessened by such an implication. Now, this does not mean that I don't like/respect you as I have from the moment I first read you. That has not changed. I guess I just fail to see why the submission of T-colon redirects for discussion, which really should be protected by community consensus and should result in a Snow-Keep as it has in the past, should bring us all to each others throats like this? What am I missing? – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 17:42, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"I want to post pictures of my kids!" is not a reason to edit Wikipedia. Does that mean that everyone who wants to post pictures of their kids should not edit Wikipedia? No, it just means that if they edit they should do so for different reasons. Or if we want an even more ridiculous analogy, that someone is ugly is not a reason to shoot them. But does that mean you can't shoot any ugly person? Even if they're coming at you with a knife and will disembowel you if you don't stop them? Similarly, just because being a pseudo-namespace redirect isn't a reason to delete doesn't mean that being a pseudo-namespace redirect is a reason to keep every single one as you keep claiming. Anomie⚔ 02:48, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Very well, that's clear enough. So we must try to reason what are good reasons to delete and what are not good reasons to delete. Search and you will find that the only item under RFD#DELETE that applies is D6, and the only reason it applies is because all the pseudo-namespace shortcuts, with the sole exception of MP: are cross-namespace redirects. That is the only deletion reason that applies, but OH, then there is that nasty little "major" exception that keeps popping up. Down below that, we see RFD#KEEP where we find two reasons to not delete the T-colons, K3 and K5. Above the D#s is the important reminder to delete only "really harmful" redirects. So the disposition of the T: shortcut redirects must take all this into consideration. The closer obviously made the correct decision and even gave a viable next step in the process for anyone who, for whatever reason, feels that they absolutely must keep trying to get rid of these useful shortcuts. To question that, to try to overturn that decision, is, to my mind, a fine example of a violation of the First Law. Joys! – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 15:08, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Now you are assuming that WP:RFD#DELETE is an exhaustive list, and that it and WP:RFD#KEEP are sets of requirements rather than suggestions. Neither is the case. I could as well tell you to drop the stick. Anomie⚔ 16:21, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And on and on, oh yes let's keep digging and dropping until I've dropped more sticks than you can shake a ball at and you've dug to China and back. I think the conversation has gone on long enough when one of us starts brushing off the guidelines like water off a duck's back and for not one single decisive reason. This was a good call. The closer suggested reasonable options for the next step if there must be one. And sitting here in an argument that cannot possibly be productive was not one of them. We both have better things to do and you are far better than I am at doing them. Neither of us will change our minds about this. The only diff is that my arguments are solidly backed by the usual guidelines that help us determine the disposition of redirects, however inexhaustive they may be. Nothing has been said in either the other past discussions nor in this one that would warrant the deletion of these harmless, useful T-colon shortcuts. Not a blessèd thing. – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 21:57, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Allow me also to remind all here that the guiding principles of RfD specifically remind us that "Redirects nominated in contravention of Wikipedia:Redirect will be speedily kept," and all the "D#"s such as D6 and its major exception are listed in that editing guideline. "Speedily kept?" So why is there a major debate every time somebody tries to delete these harmless, useful shortcuts? – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 11:54, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Allowed. While you are there, please read Shortcuts ... This is commonly done in project space, but not in article space. And stop writing "harmless" as a fact. -DePiep (talk) 12:45, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you (for allowing me)! Read your above quote in italics once more, please, DePiep. Note the word "commonly". During the Rfd there were 49 engaged T-colon shortcuts and another 12 (13 total, but at least one had not been disengaged} for a total of 61 T-colon redirects that presently exist. Compare that with the thousands of shortcuts that are not in article space. So does this not meet the criteria you quoted? Of course it does. Shortcuts ... This is commonly done in project space, but not in article space. This says to me that shortcuts are not commonly done in article space, and 77 T-colon shortcuts even put together with a few hundred other pseudo-namespace redirects makes them quite uncommon as compared with the thousands of shortcuts in non-article space. Also, you are not my boss and you are not my wife, so do please stop trying to tell me what to do. You spent the entire Rfd trying to tell people what to do, and now you are here in this senseless conversation try to do the same. I suggest you learn some people skills. You arrogantly tell me to stop writing that nasty "H" word, but as usual you give no concise (short and sweet) rebuttal and tell everybody precisely why you think these shortcuts are NOT harmless. What is so harmful about a handful of shortcuts in article space? Thanks to a lot of help, we have pretty much categorized the bunch as "unprintworthy" so they would not appear in Jimbo's dream of a full-printed version of Wikipedia, and that is really the only possible harm I can see. What other harm do YOU see, DePiep? and please, do try to keep your response fairly concise, please? – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 17:53, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Personal attack. -DePiep (talk) 07:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is not going in a productive direction. Keφr 09:37, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
DePiep, I attack only ideas and behavior, not people. I certainly don't consider you less of a contributor here than I am, in fact, you are probably better at editing Wikipedia than I am. I really try hard to focus on "what is right" and not on "who is right". But I consider it the height of funny to be accused of a personal attack by someone who has just called me a "dick". – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 12:42, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, Thryduulf, but I feel that in this case the debate should be re-closed by someone else. In a collaborative encyclopaedia users need confidence that our decision making processes are fair (see FairProcess). There's a principle, originally from a legal case (R v Sussex Justices, ex parte McCarthy) that any reasonable suspicion or appearance of bias is enough to undermine that confidence. On Wikipedia we have WP:INVOLVED, which can reasonably be stretched to cover this case. I don't really agree with John Vandenberg but his point is arguable. Therefore, a different sysop should close the debate, although I hope they come to the same conclusion you did; to delete these redirects when they're not required for any other purpose is unnecessary and destructive.—S MarshallT/C 21:46, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If I had thought at the time that three-year-old views on related but not identical redirects meant I was involved I would not have closed this. I have no objection to being told I got that wrong though - I am human! Thryduulf (talk) 23:04, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Should we similarly prohibit admins who've argued delete or keep in an AfD on the basis of notability from closing AfDs where WP:N enter into the discussion for the next three years? (Yes, I realise this would be reductio ad absurdum if I'd done any reductioing). WilyD 11:39, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn or relist/reclose, whichever is favored by participants, but the NC cannot be allowed to stand. Not only was the discussion clearly in favor of deletion, but also the closing admin was a participant in a previous related deletion discussion. Not good. Tarc (talk) 22:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That I expressed views in a related previous discussion does not automatically mean that the outcome was incorrect as your comment seems to imply - whether I was involved and whether the discussion arrived at a consensus are independent of one another. Thryduulf (talk) 23:04, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse The majority of delete views are really pretty inadequate, so it would have been within discretion to close this as a keep, but NC is probably the best reading. No way it should have closed as a delete, so accusations of appearance of bias are really grasping at straws. Jclemens (talk) 07:39, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Funny, my gut feeling is exactly the opposite: there is no way it could have been closed as "keep". What do you mean by saying "[t]he majority of delete views are really pretty inadequate"? Keφr 11:01, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That two experienced editors have opposite gut reactions about whether a discussion favoured keep or favoured delete seems like a point in favour of a no consensus closure. I can certainly see why both sides can read the discussion as favouring their point of view, but that again is often an indication that no consensus was reached. Thryduulf (talk) 11:57, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Better not take the bait about "gut feeling". Reading the closure and the closer's after comments give me this overall emptyness feeling: why did the closer not search for consensus, or tried to conclude into one. A closer can do more that just count the arguments and writing that below the line, "there are arguments on both sides and there is no consensus by the !voters So, ...". Duh. A closer has more freedom to conclude, and many good XfD closures were made by a closer stepping forward, into the arguments. -DePiep (talk) 07:26, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OTOH, it may just indicate that people are applying vastly different criteria, which would mean that some people are being unreasonable in their criteria or that consensus is just impossible because the criteria are so vague. Anomie⚔ 14:27, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The question for you still to answer, Thryduulf, is whether you read the discussion or wrote the conclusions offline & beforehand. Zooming in again on your unsubstantiated "no consensus" words is not enough; 90% of your closing arguments were about something else. Your conclusion was based on a flawed reasoning, a reasoning you have left behind completely afterwards. -DePiep (talk) 15:23, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I've just spotted this question. I have never closed any discussion without having read the discussion and I cannot imagine any circumstances in which I would do so. As with almost every edit I have ever made to Wikipedia, I wrote the closing statement for this discussion in the editing window (not that this is relevant to anything). As explained many times, the no consensus closure was based on two factors: The relevant arguments for keeping or deleting the listed redirects being about balanced, and overall their being insufficient relevant discussion about the listed redirects to form a consensus. I have said this in many ways, but this is because there is a lot of refusing to listen happening (from several quarters). Thryduulf (talk) 13:36, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reopen (or overturn). While deletion discussions are ostensibly not votes, and we base the outcomes on strength of arguments based on policy, there seems to be no reason to dismiss the opinions of the majority of participants which recommended deletion. There is no "policy" about the topic to speak of anyway — both WP:Namespace#Pseudo-namespaces and WP:Perennial proposals#Create shortcut namespace aliases for various namespaces are "information pages", a bizarre quasi-guideline/essay class of pages, while WP:RFD#DELETE has no "normative status" (so to speak) assigned whatsoever. And I remember something about policies being descriptive of consensus rather than prescriptive anyway: maybe this discussion could have uncovered a need to update those pages to reflect a new consensus. Keφr 11:01, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I used the First law of holes to respond to Anomie, but I'm afraid it applies just as starkly to your rationale above. There is no new consensus. There is only "no consensus", and to try to overturn the closer's rationale and advice for a continuance if so desired is, in my humble opinion, just like the backhoe photograph in the article on the First law. There is nothing in WP:RFD#DELETE that applies except the major exception in D6, and there are two items, K3 and K5 at WP:RFD#KEEP, that apply to these useful, harmless shortcuts. But some people won't stop until they reach China. Joys! – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 15:53, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(my conclusion later). Closer Thryduulf is opening here with I explained my reasoning for doing so in the closing statement (very basically the arguments presented about the actual redirects under discussion were about balanced). This is not correct enough. Only afterwards the closer is arriving at the "no consensus" reasoning as a core. But the actual closing argument shows other reasons. The flawed and altered reasoning is prolonged in closer's talkpage responses, ultimately withdrawing to a single point of "no consensus" as if no other arguments were used by the closer.
In the closing remarks, contributions are declared "unhelpful meta-discussion" (btw, given that closer uses two arguments from the Keep-comments says me that this disqualification is aimed solely on my arguments; a "but I didn't write names" - fallacy doesn't change that). Then the closer introduces arguments ex machina, stating "the most recent consensuses in appropriate venues are that there is no prohibition against using T: redirects to the template namespace." (five words before, the closer threw out a "meta-discussion", but somehow is allowed to introduce(!) arguments from outer space). I still find this a brutality, an arrogant shuffle.
Then he goes on to complain that there is nothing virtually no discussion about the individual redirects. When I actually listed the individually addressed Redirects by name on his talkpage, the argument was suddenly forgotten by the closer and he changed topic. Why at all arguments for the whole list should mention specific entries I still do not get; the closer clearly did not see this possibility. When 12 pages are listed, and I build a reasoning for those twelve, it is not the closers business to tell me I should have listed them. Nor is it his business to throw my arguments in the bin, replacing them with alchemy.
Closer then starts giving directions on how to structure RfD's in the future (but not "too many concurrent discussions" please). This is paternalistic, arrogant, and nowhere it is guaranteed that if one follows this prescription, arguments would be treated different of even better.
The final sentence of the closing is a stab at my arguments (by someone who first pulled some god-given arguments from a hat).
In general, I concur with User:Anomie wo stated earlier that it looks like the closer did not read or get the discussion. I add that the closing argument does not even look like it is about the discussion. It was written in a separate room, using arguments that were pre-written already (now this does relate to earlier opinions).
I feel fucked having my arguments being treated this way: not read, dismissed as "unhelpful meta", flatly wrong in both ways re individually addressed entries, and this all being replaced by meta alchemist pre-formulated arguments from outside. Before the second half of my response, I take a break. -DePiep (talk) 19:10, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Judging but not reading? Another useless off-topic contribution, with personal attack. There is a pattern. Next time please mark your edits. -DePiep (talk) 15:11, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Cute – you write endless diatribes in an argument that nobody can possibly win, and you call me a dick? How obsessively and aggressively ironic! You're beginning to remind me of me! – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 16:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No I didn't. I call out your repeated behaviour here. Personal, off-topic, judgemental, dismissive. -DePiep (talk) 06:50, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn into deletion. Mainly from closers reasoning (essentaially throwing out my RfD arguments and replacing them with a personal, outside reasoning), I may have to point to earlier arguments. First there is the "no reason to delete"-argument, landed repeatedly by Paine Ellsworth in this topic (in the RfD too), but nicely disarmed by Anomie early on (in short: "... but there can be other reasons to delete").
Then there is the Keep-contributor in RfD that in a short contribution mainly stated that these were not cross-namespace. It must be repeated that these pages are pages in mainspace. As such, the claim "harmless" can not be made as a blanket.
Then there are claims of "consensus" that these are kept.
PE linked at least twice to WP:CNR, which has that word in the lede indeed. Of course this is just an essay. More tellingly, and reducing its weight to below zero, that page started as a policy proposal, and when that failed it was turned into an essay [1], after which change the phrase was added. All this was about 2007 [2].
In closing, Thryduulf wrote: as the most recent [sic] consensuses in appropriate venues are[3]. About this "most recent" -- how can that be a consensus (apart from being ex machina and unspecified)? Where is that? Closer fails to specify this "consensuses", let alone "recent consensuses".
Here is the issue with deletion of T: articles (possibly expandable with other pseudos): we don't know what happened. Only very few of these Redirects have survived and are discussed at RfD over the more recent years. Most of these must have been deleted without a question at all once Template space was introduced. The fact that we non-admins do not have a trace visible of these says that we can not conclude that they are commonly kept.
And there are clean-cut Delete outcomes: Dec 2010, Dec 2010. So, the "recent consensuses" do not exist (closer's judgments wrong or unbased; actually a simple wp:otherstuffexists allusion, no more).
What remains is that there is no rule. That is the starting point for this RfD/DRV. So we must think for ourselves in the RfD. I have found not one original Keep argument in the whole, all serious "keep" arguments are derived from non-existent outside "consensus" claims. And this is what I wrote (and a lot of RfD contributors with me): For one or more reasons for each (all mentioned in the RfD) all 13 proposed T:-pages can be deleted. I will not repeat the reasons, and I will not repeat on which pages each applies. The closer could and should have done that. -DePiep (talk) 13:39, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - Lets just relist them all individually and each one can be discussed separately. -- WOSlinker (talk) 20:13, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn or Relist (preferably relist as a batch, but individually is also OK) - I would have preferred that the close was reverted and the existing discussion relisted/closed by someone else, but anyway .. we are here. There has never been consensus to keep T: prefixes (e.g. 6 Dec 2010 which was mentioned by User:Cymru.lass in the 29 December 2010 discussion). I can appreciate that batches can be problematic, however I carefully selected a set of T: redirects that I felt were not in keeping with previous decisions. There were eleven (11) people in the discussion who agreed with the selection, and some explicitly said that this deletion should not prejudice on the ones that I didn't nominate (and I agree). The 11 are DePiep (who created one of these redirects), Anomie, Thumperward, TonyTheTiger (creator of T:AH which I didnt list because it doesnt belong to this set), Frietjes, WOSlinker, Mr. Stradivarius, Kephir, Steel1943, Modest_Genius and myself of nominator. There were only three (3) people who voted keep. Of those three, Paine Ellsworth is the creator of one of the redirects that I nominated, and Technical 13 has been fighting for the right for anyone to create new namespaces (see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 September 10#CSD:G1 and Wikipedia:Requests for comment/CSD pseudo-namespace). The last of the three is Jclemens, who has stated that T: should be a formalised as a shortcut for Template:. 11 vs 3. John Vandenberg(chat) 03:28, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
More counting: from 13 proposed deletions, only one was singled out in a Keep argumentfor specific reasons. I still do not see why a cover-all argument would not be allowed, here simple leading to a delete-12 keep-1 conclusion. -DePiep (talk) 06:46, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There has never been consensus to keep T: prefixes...
The history of the main T-colon shortcut that this begins with, T:WPTECH, shows that it was listed on 29 December 2010 and the result was SNOW keep – not just "keep", but "SNOW keep". The "consensus" was that there wasn't a "snowball's chance in hell" that any of these should be deleted. That's been the case for others in this group and so many other pseudo-namespace redirects, as well.
11 vs 3
It shouldn't have to be repeated again: Wikipedia is not a democracy. The decision was based upon the calibre of the given rationales, which is as it should be. The old, worn-out arguments that favor deletion of these shortcuts all have rebuttal rationales that make more sense than the senseless deletion of harmless, useful shortcut redirects. – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 16:19, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The snow keep of 29 December 2010 was because it included many redirects that were in active use. It was an indiscriminate listing of every 'T:' redirect. That was a consensus against nominations of that kind, and it is a consensus I agree with. I put together a carefully selected subset that have similar properties, being that only their creator loves them, and for some of them even their creator voted delete. John Vandenberg(chat) 07:36, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Let's say you are correct about the snow keep of 2010 and the consensus was only against mass nominations. The question remains why anyone would take the time to go through and "carefully" select a subset of harmless T-colon shortcuts that allegedly have similar properties? It's been established that there could be uses of these shortcuts that do not show up anywhere, not page views, not anywhere, and yet you persist and use the faulty argument that there is something very wrong with a creator of a shortcut liking, using and finding it useful, especially when there is no way to tell if the creator is the "only" one who uses it – absolutely no way! – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 23:59, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn There was not enough dissent to the proposed deletion to list this as no consensus.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:29, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Discussions of cross-namespace redirects such as these often produce results that are no better than random. A discussion with more participation than RFD (WP:CENT?) would at least provide an indication of wider consensus on some of the issues. Regardless of consensus on the principle, some of these should be nominated separately as misleading redirects, as the "T:" and "Template:" versions don't lead to the same target (compare T:WPTECH with Template:WPTECH). Peter James (talk) 23:35, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak endorse I probably would've closed as delete, but on further review, these really aren't cross-namespace redirects (that confuses cross-namespace and pseudo-namespace), so there were a few delete votes that really shouldn't be given much weight, premised as they are on an erroneous assumption. Generally, I don't think one editor finding something useful is strong enough to outweigh legitimate reasons for deletion, otherwise the door would be opened for Scw,c and all sorts of other nonsense. But here, I think the margin was within an administrator's discretion. --BDD (talk) 23:27, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Except they really are cross-namespace redirects, which has been explicitly mentioned in the discussion. Go for example to [4] and type javascript:alert("this page's namespace is '" + wgCanonicalNamespace + "' (" + wgNamespaceNumber + ")"); into the address bar. Then try it on some other pages. That we allow titles with a "T:" prefix to redirect to the Template namespace is just a custom (and not even a consistently followed one, see T:MP.) Keφr 00:37, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, if you have to go out of your way and run some code to discover that these are in the "wrong" namespace, that really doesn't count. --BDD (talk) 01:58, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi BDD, there are other ways to see the problem, using techniques ordinary users use. If you go to special:search and type in any of these into the search box, with only 'Article' namespace selected, they appear as the first result. Even if you exclude the 'T:' prefix, and search for 'WPTECH' instead of 'T:WPTECH', the template redirect appears as the first result; same for 'WPAF', 'WPProp', 'WP Proposals' and 'R from'. Searching for 'VGR', the template redirect appears as the fourth result. A search for 'P2' turns up 'T:P2' on the third page as the 49th result, with 'T:DYK/P2' also on the third page in position 52. That means this 'P2' redirect is deemed more important than the the redirect Pelamis P2, which averages 30 pageviews per month. Even a search for 'FAUNA' returns T:FAUNA as the 75th result, ahead of 44,000 other entries which are more relevant. Searching for 'OU' returns 'T:OU' as the 83rd result, ahead of the redirect Ou Xuan which sees peaks of 50 pageviews per month. Searching for 'TT' returns 'T:TT' around slot 155, ahead of redirect TT Virus, which recently peaked at 28 pageviews per month. Why are T: cross-namespace redirects more highly placed in search results than other articles which mention the search term multiple times? Simple: they match on the page title, and these shortcut titles are short, which means the search term matches the majority of the page title, so these pages get a high score in the search engine. John Vandenberg(chat) 04:14, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
re BDD.... (that confuses cross-namespace and pseudo-namespace) says BDD. Isn't it BDD introducing the confusion here by using "cross-namespace" as a namespace? Further, simply using {{NAMESPACE}} on a redirect page says it. Or {{main other|this-is-mainsp|this-is-not-mainsp}}. I find it strange and tiresome that at the end of this many kB RfD, DRV process this still has to be explained before being able to go into arguments. To an editor who as admin could have closed the RfD. -DePiep (talk) 04:42, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know where you got the idea that I think cross-namespace is a namespace. My overall point remains that if it looks like it's part of a given namespace, it should be (a WP:DUCK corollary, if you will). If a mainspace search is finding these sorts of redirects, that sounds like a software issue to me. --BDD (talk) 20:28, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"[Jupiter's moons] are invisible to the naked eye and therefore can have no influence on the earth, and therefore would be useless, and therefore do not exist." Keφr 20:57, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
...? --BDD (talk) 21:07, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - Batch nominations require commonality in that there needs to be at least one deletion claim common to the entire batch. Here, there were at least two 1) cross-namespace redirects with 2) low number of pageviews/not visited regularly. The reasons for deleting redirects are listed at WP:RFD#DELETE. "T:" cross-namespace redirects are an exception to deleting cross-namespace redirect out of article space. See WP:RFD#DELETE. However, those proposing to delete focused on the cross-namespace redirect portion without accounting for the cross-namespace redirect exception. Also, a low number of pageviews/not visited regularly still shows that "Someone finds them useful" which is #5 Reasons for not deleting listed at WP:RFD#KEEP. Per the close, some of the listed redirects were not tagged for deletion. The close noted that there was no discussion about the individual redirects. WP:ROUGH CONSENSUS is the standard by which the closer takes action on a discussion and it reads "Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but by looking at strength of argument, and underlying policy (if any). Arguments that contradict policy, are based on opinion rather than fact, or are logically fallacious, are frequently discounted." There was a lack of strength of argument and use of policy/guideline/etc. The trouble with batch nominations is that each nomination in the batch usually stands or falls together. In view of the discussion, the closer of the discussion did not interpreted the consensus incorrectly. -- Jreferee (talk) 05:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The close noted that there was no discussion about the individual redirects: that notion was incorrect (I pointed to this at closer's talkpage early on [5], then the closer changed argument into a "yes, but ..." [6], evasive). Jreferee could not have made this statement sincerely if they had checked the close text against RfD content.
the closer of the discussion did not interpreted the consensus incorrectly -- how do we know? The closer did not read the discussion, or at least did not use the arguments brought forward. The closer then injected their own opinion from outside as the only base. Also, the closer and Jreferee here still fail to explain why arguments can be applied nor to the whole batch nor to individual nominations. I can gain no trust from "advise" on how to nominate a list, since any next closer can discard that at will. -DePiep (talk) 05:58, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What on earth are you on about!? I've detailed which arguments I gave weight to and which were unhelpful, etc. which would be impossible if I hadn't read the discussion. There were relevant arguments for and against deletion, with the weight of neither predominating, and that there was not enough relevant discussion about the individual redirects for there to be a consensus to keep or delete any of them. I made a mistake about how many were not tagged for deletion and corrected that when it was pointed out (changing "almost all" to "some"), if that was the sole basis for my closure then I would have reverted it but in reality it was only a small portion. The main reason I closed this as no consensus was that there was insufficient relevant discussion about the listed redirects to form a consensus, which is why I suggested a way to make a future discussion (which anyone could have started) more likely to achieve consensus. As for outside arguments, I'm not sure what you mean. At RfD there are standard interpretations of some facts and arguments (see WP:RFD#KEEP and WP:RFD#DELETE) that I obviously took into consideration when weighing the arguments presented, but this is common to every RfD closure that requires an evaluation of competing arguments. Thryduulf (talk) 10:18, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
[7] Thryd closing, 25 Nov: there is virtually no discussion about the individual redirects
[9] replt TD: Yes, you [sic; me?] argued about specific redirects, but not everybody agreed with you.
A shift in reasoning, evading responsibility for closing remark "virtually no" (and changing into "you").
You must have "seen" them, but you did not "read" them. You threw them out with no holdbacks. In first argument. And then you introduced your own arguments from outside.
My point "arguments can be applied nor to the whole batch nor to individual nominations [at choice, by the closer]" - still not expanded by you or Jreferee here.
So, when individual redirects were addressed you skip that, when the whole list was addressed you skip that.
I can add that nowhere I expanded the deletion target to the whole of T:space. Commenter PE suggested that more than once, and you bought that. I can not defend against illogic. One more bad reading.
You change tone again when writing here "there was not enough relevant discussion" (about individual redirects). The close said: "virtually no". Subtle shifting of phrasing to clean up your act. I pointed to more of these. -DePiep (talk) 19:49, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Adding: [10]particularly as some comments relate to an unspecified subset. Thryd. So that finishes it all. When discussed single redirects: not seen. When discussed the whole set: dismissed. When discussion a subset: did not understand. Closer did not try very hard. -DePiep (talk) 08:54, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
user:Jreferee, I agree that there were two reasons. Both reasons were common to all of them. I dont believe that the exception has ever successfully been applied to T: CNR. T: are regularly deleted, as they are not accepted as CNR like MOS: & H: & P:, and WP: WT: which were also once CNR. Suddenly they are exempt? And only now I need to write a legal opinion in the nomination, covering every single possible issue? Why is the bar is so high now, when it wasnt for Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2010_December_6. People regularly delete T: CNR, such as user:Amalthea speedy deleting T:Asbox. user:MSGJ speedy deleted T:APPLE, saying "sorry these are not allowed", it was taken to CfD by user:Xeno who used the rationale "Recently created, unnecessary cross-namespace redirect. The banner template is not linked often enough in discussions to require placing a redirect in the mainspace." [and talked about the syntax problems which were repeated in the discussion we are now reviewing]. In response, the creator of the template (user:Mono) agreed and it was speedied again. user:Thumperward successfully argued here that T:DEFCON that be deleted despite other CNR because "We shouldn't encourage people to drop new cross-namespace redirects into the mainspace unless they're genuinely considered to be a good idea." user:Ruslik0 deleted it. user:RHaworth speedy deleted page T:IBT. Back in 2007, user:RockMFR batch nominated 5 C: redirects and 3: T: redirects arguing that lack of incoming links was sufficient and noted that "C: and T: are not usually used as pseudo-namespaces for shortcuts." With only User:delldot and User:Gavia immer commenting, both in agreement, User:JLaTondre deleted them. On the same page User:Radiant! nominates more C: and T:, which were all deleted. user:Tikiwont deleted T:ITN/C when User:B.Wind argued there were better shortcuts available. In all my looking through T: discussions, I can only find keeps for cases where a significant number of comments either supported keeping the redirect, or many voices indicated in the discussion that the batch nomination was too broad. Neither of those happened in this XFD. Note that I informed all who participated in Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2010_December_29#T: (which was the keep result), and were not retired. 36 notifications Instead the closing admin decided that the batch nomination was problematic on his own accord. I didnt tag and notify on two instances: T:P2 (by user:Arbitrarily0) and T:WPAF (by user:Quentin Smith). If the closing admin felt that to be a problem, he should have relisted the debate and notified those people, or asked me to do that. John Vandenberg(chat) 11:13, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The Wikipedia:Redirect guideline states that a major exception to deleting cross-namespace redirect out of article space is the T: pseudo-namespace shortcut redirect. Paine Ellsworth raised this in the T:WPTECH RfD discussion. Those arguing delete in the T:WPTECH RfD discussion did not sufficiently rebut this point by indicating why the listed 12 T: redirects should be deleted despite the major T: cross-namespace redirect exception in Wikipedia:Redirect guideline. The discussion deletion arguments looking at past RfDs fall under WP:WAX. In reply to the detailed arguments as to why T: pseudo-namespace shortcut redirects should not be part of the major exception, Paine Ellsworth correctly noted in the RfD discussion that RfD is not the venue to discuss the deletion of an entire pseudo-namespace. Many of the other delete arguments were more conclusion than argument. There was insufficient relevant discussion in the body of the RfD about the 12 listed redirects to form a consensus. When you add closing admin discretion to that, I do not think that the closer interpreted the consensus incorrectly. -- Jreferee (talk) 13:08, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I do not see 'T:' mentioned on Wikipedia:Redirect. Could you point out where it is on that page? It is mentioned on Wikipedia:Namespace and Wikipedia:Shortcut, which are information pages only. The latter says "The following pseudo-namespaces are less commonly used, for a variety of reasons" and then lists 'T:'. Please do check the history of that page, as that statement goes back a long way - I checked the last 50 revs. Paine Ellsworth was talking FUD. The batch nomination did not proposed deletion of an entire pseudo-namespace. I did not list all T: in the batch, as had been done in other RfD; I explicitly included only a subset, and several people agreed only with those listed to be deleted, without prejudice against the other T:s which were not listed. John Vandenberg(chat) 13:35, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To exclude T: from the Wikipedia:Redirect guideline major exception, the guideline would need to be revised, such as "The major exception to this rule are the CAT:, H:, MOS:, and P: pseudo-namespace shortcut redirects, which technically are in the main article space. Some long-standing cross-namespace redirects, including long-standing T: redirects, are also kept because of their long-standing history and potential usefulness." Both you and DePiep made good arguments in the RfD to exclude T: from the Wikipedia:Redirect guideline major exception. However, that cannot be done through an RfD. The change can be done by posting a request at Wikipedia talk:Redirect. -- Jreferee (talk) 14:14, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds like you're repeating the same fallacious reasoning I argued against above, and throwing in a strawman for good measure. "X is not a reason to delete" is not the same as "X must be kept no matter what", and few of the comments even mentioned "cross-namespace" and none seem to have depended on that as their only argument. Anomie⚔ 15:14, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The outcome of the RfD is based on strength of arguments and the closer reasonably did not find sufficient strength in either the keep or delete position. My 14:14, 5 December 2013 comment you replied to was a suggestion to John on how to address the larger issue. The default length of an RfC is 30 days. Thirty days after posting a request at Wikipedia talk:Redirect to change the text as noted above can resolve the a larger issue. -- Jreferee (talk) 13:23, 7 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Some misconceptions here:
WP:WAX is an essay, not a policy nor guideline and therefore not binding.
WP:WAX does not dismiss outright the merit of such arguments; it merely lowers it: "While these comparisons are not a conclusive test, they may form part of a cogent argument; an entire comment should not be dismissed because it includes a comparative statement like this"
Decisions made in past discussions, especially past deletion discussions, are often indicative of a consensus formed in the past that should be respected. Far-reaching discussions such as the RFC on giving bureaucrats the desysop userright needed to go through process to change a policy page because of existing cited discussions which supported the status quo at the time before the RFC's proposed changes were implemented. An essay does not trump the long history of deletion discussions and consensus-building that CNRs have experienced.
Oh yay, involved supervotes and winning-by-bureaucracy. We shouldn't even be having a discussion about overturning this. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:32, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not I was involved, I most definitely did not supervote and I struggle to see how no consensus is a win for anybody? Thryduulf (talk) 13:25, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If you are 'involved', your close is essentially a WP:supervote. That is just an 'if'; I am not making that accusation, and I avoid saying anything like that unless I see patterns in behaviour. I know you close lots of CfDs, and participate in CfDs too, so I dont find it unusual or believe you had ill-intention to have closed this one, but given you've been voted on this contentious topic in the past it would have been wiser to let someone else close this one. Your close, despite being a 'no consensus', contains many statements that will be used in future discussions, with a voice of authority. Your summary of the CfD seems to be heavily slanted, which was my initial concern. Worse, the more I look at the history of CNR and PNR, the more I can only conclude that your summary of the current status of CNR/PNR in general is erroneous. I can only find evidence to the contrary. Part of your summary of the discussion says "Discounting all that there is virtually no discussion about the individual redirects". Firstly, why is that relevant? Where is the guideline that says an RfD must discuss each item in a batch nomination? They were offered for discussion; User:DePiep did specifically identify problems with several of them, without any rebuttal from the 35 people who were notified of this discussion. T:R from was discussed at length, and user:Anomie showed that typing '{{R from}}' was easier than Paine Ellsworth's offered usage used to defend T:R from, to which Paine Ellsworth said 'Point well taken' and then continued to fight, not on the merits of the individual redirect, that we cant delete useless redirects because essay WP:CNR says there is general consensus PNR are untouchable. Technical 13 and Jclemens also couldnt offer any merits of any of them, but resorted to 'keep all because this is a PNR'. Your close says "most recent consensuses in appropriate venues are that there is no prohibition against using T: redirects to the template namespace". User:DePiep and I have shown admin decisions, admin actions, and community edits which show the essays being offered as rationale for 'keep all' do not have the authority of an existing community consensus. The more I look, the more I find consistency in the delete outcome except in well-argued situations, such as Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 68#Proposal for an alias to templatespace in 2011, all the way back to 2006. Could you point to the recent consensuses that you refer to in your close? John Vandenberg(chat) 01:05, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
When looking for precedent, one should also note the closing comments at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 September 10#CSD:G1: "[T]he argument that cross-namespace redirects are inherently deletable is strong [...]; it's clear from the history of pseudo-namespaces that PNRs are not welcomed, and existing PNRs are kept mainly to avoid linkrot[.]" Keφr 09:48, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thryduulf, the question is not if or whether you deliberately derailed the lines of discussion. The point is that you still do not admit that your closing may be unbalanced. Even until this moment, you keep arguing your "no consensus" conclusion, but with shifting arguments while omitting any substantial correction or admission. (One exception, the early edit into "some"). -DePiep (talk) 09:04, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion really needs to be closed. Where the heck is Jimbo when you need him? – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 00:10, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why invoke Jimbo? There are no death threats yet. Keφr 09:48, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've been asked to comment about this since I found it in my email. Based on my reading of the discussion, this seems like a no-consensus closure with the possibility of relisting. Thryduulf's closing arguments indicate a lack of centralized discussion about the specified redirects, which are not meant to apply generally to all pseudo-namespace redirects or even all T-colon pseudo-namespace redirects. However overall arguments have been that in favor of keeping:
That they are not harming anyone.
That at least one of them is useful in page transclusions (but this has already been supplemented with the colon before the template name).
That editors should be free to create pseudo-namespace redirects as they wish with due process (which goes against traditional consensus and notions about the mainspace).
To which the opposing arguments to delete were, although somewhat weak:
Kephir's elaboration of the typical arguments extended in debates and non-consensuses regarding pseudo-namespace/cross-namespace redirects ad nauseum.
That though redirects do not harm, neither do their deletion. "Redirects are cheap. Redirects take up minimal disk space and use very little bandwidth. Thus, it doesn't really hurt things much if there are a few of them scattered around. On the flip side, deleting redirects is cheap since the deletion coding takes up minimal disk space and use very little bandwidth. There is no harm in deleting problematic redirects."
That only this specific batch has low pageview count, both overall and specifically to each redirect (and therefore are rather harmless whether or not to keep or delete, which means this is probably the weakest argument for either case).
That the previous overarching consensus was discouraging not only the creation of new out-of-mainspace redirects but also use of current ones (which also applies to all pseudo-namespace or all T-colon pseudo-namespace redirects). Requoting another discussion Kephir found, "[T]he argument that cross-namespace redirects are inherently deletable is strong [...]; it's clear from the history of pseudo-namespaces that PNRs are not welcomed, and existing PNRs are kept mainly to avoid linkrot[.]"
There is also one argument in favor of speedy keep
That this nomination goes against WP:R (but this page also cites deletion/keep reasons from WP:RFD making this argument circular), possibly because RFD keep reason 5, but this has insofar only applied to T:R_from which is the only listed exception singled out in the discussion. All other arguments have been generally for either all redirects, all pseudo-namespace redirects, all T-colon pseudo-namespace redirects, or specifically this batch of T-colon pseudo-namespace redirects (again with the possible exception of T:R_from).
One final note is that although pageview count is important I have curiously not seen a keep reason if favor of a redirect's age, and particularly with respect to a number of redirects in these batches (some go back as far as 2007 [and have also been nominated twice for some of the same reasons which proves how controversial and upsetting to the wiki any discussion props up regarding the existence of these redirects] while others are as recent as 2011).
Therefore, my final verdict on this one would have to be relist for consensus. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 22:08, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, so doing a little more digging I found WP:CNR: "Currently, the general consensus seems to be that newly created cross-namespace redirects from the main (article) namespace to the Wikipedia (project) namespace should be deleted, that very old ones might be retained value for extra-Wikipedia links, and that pseudo-namespace redirects (CAT:, P:, MOS:, etc.) may be used freely." The problem with this statement, which others have used as a reason both to delete and to keep (thus signifying its ambiguity), is the distinction between 'cross-namespace' and 'pseudo-namespace' redirect, though this could just be splitting hairs and wikilawyering. But it seems that, based on this statement, the only distinction so far has been that pseudo-namespace are 'established' redirects preserved for posterity while cross-namespace are not. Going along this train of thought, 'established' is very vague and based on whatever consensus exists at any present moment and arbitrary sets of rules, some of which have merit such as the age and use of a redirect and some of which do not. Either way, the arguments hashed and rehashed again and again on that essay page should apply here as well, with discretion of course. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 22:35, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Gee, I don't know, TeleComNasSprVen – there seem to be several who absolutely hate these poor, harmless little shortcuts, and several more who absolutely adore them. What in the name of heaven and earth would make anyone think that a new listing would be any different from the last one and from this deletion review discussion? – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 02:40, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
PE, this is a DRV. Stop the drama postings. And you could have read the answer beforehand. -DePiep (talk) 13:08, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You're appealing to the wrong person, Paine. I'm trying my best to distance myself from my opinion in the actual discussion to more objectively give a reading of the consensus, considering I had not given it yet during the RfD. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 13:48, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Very well, then (and I shall try earnestly to limit any "drama" content), maybe you could extend your contribution to include one more reason to keep? I mentioned this reason, but few seem interested in exploring its impact. We may call it the "Dynamic Re-Creation" reason. Let's for the moment put aside that these 13 shortcuts were "carefully chosen" by the nominator as representative of past subjects of deletion discussions that may be considered exceptions to the keep and snow-keep dispositions for reasons of evident uselessness. Since it has been established that the What links here page should not be used as a sole criteria for deletion, and that the number of page views may be misleading due to at least one possible usage (on "Show preview" pages), which does not increment the page-view statistics, how useful these shortcuts are should be closely scrutinized. And yet, without knowing or being able to know how useful they are, we can only speculate. Having to begin somewhere, let us say each of the 13 shortcuts is on the average useful to 3 editors. It would then follow that there are about 40 editors who find these shortcuts useful. Now, let's delete them. If you happen to be one of those 40 editors, and you were to try to use your shortcut as a link on a talk or documentation page only to find it red-linked, what would you do? My contention is that you would either re-create your shortcut or create a new shortcut with the same target. If all 40 editors do this, then where we had 13 shortcuts, we would have 40 shortcuts. At best, we have no way of knowing whether or not "3 editors per shortcut" is conservative or accurate; the number may very well be 10 or more editors per shortcut. So if we delete 13 shortcuts that are useful to 10-per editors, a potential 130 new shortcuts may take their place, and so on. I consider this a logical reason not to delete, and I wonder if, in your opinion, it may possess any ability to affect a future consensus? – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 21:36, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
These are shortcuts – cheap, redirect shortcuts. These are not articles, they are just shortcuts. The editors would not recreate them to incur the wrath of Wikipedia, Keφr, they would recreate them because they need them, because they find them useful. These are not "really harmful" redirects, they are harmless shortcuts in a strange type of "namespace" that long-standing community consensus has determined can be "used freely". Your reaction to my speculative situation appears to epitomize this entire situation, from the first discussion to this most recent: First delete the shortcuts, then threaten to block anyone who tries to make more of them. Will a group of "cops" keep Special:PrefixIndex/T: under their wings to make sure no dastardly criminal editors make more? One contributor finds a shortcut useful, but another contributor says it must be destroyed, and if you make it again, we'll send you to Siberia to edit an alternative language Wikipedia. Where does it end? Where does anybody get off telling another editor they cannot use a harmless Wikipedia tool that they find useful? – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 20:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse Participating in a similar discussion several years ago is not enough to make the closer involved. If we applied those sort of standards, it would cause serious problems. How many admins active at AfD have, for instance, participated in AfDs on schools? Are they to be precluded from closing any discussion on them in the future? As for the close, I think it was reasonable and certainly within admin discretion. While it is permissible to nominate batches of redirects, it may cause problems if different considerations apply to different ones. This seems to be the case here. The redirects should be renominated individually to enable a better attempt to reach consensus. In this discuss, reasonable arguments were made on both sides, so a no consensus closure was quite proper. Neljack (talk) 21:45, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that simple. Closing editor used mostly arguments from those discusisons years ago, while neglecting arguments made in the current discussion. Already on the pre-DRV talk, right after closing, two editors (including me) complained that it appeared as if the closer "had not read" the current discussion. Only after that those earlier involvement was noted. Also, on this page very few or none editors comment on that. -DePiep (talk) 00:31, 12 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
