- Ritmeyer (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)
This article was deleted per WP:A7. A search on google showed that the article did make a claim of notability and therefore the article does not qualify under A7. I requested the article be undeleted and my request was refused here [1]. Op47 (talk) 15:37, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and list at AFD. Article contained reasonable claim of notability, which defeats an A7 deletion. Stifle (talk) 15:59, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: As of this moment the text of the deleted article is still visible in the Google cache. EdJohnston (talk) 17:17, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse simply including the word 'prominent' isn't enough to dodge A7, especially when paired with the word 'niche' which appears to contradict it. For what it's worth, other claims in the article appear to be false, so I would consider the rest of it suspect as well. The company itself may indeed be notable, and may be a potential article subject, but restoring the former text would in no way help the encyclopedia. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 17:27, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse - Words such as prominent, high quality, influential, much sought after, 'high' prices in the deleted article are promotional and subjective characterization, not A7 importance/significance. Leen Ritmeyer is the only Ritmeyer for which there appears to be source information. Given the poor state of the article and the lack of online access to information on the 1930s-1970s German piano manufacturer, it's better to way for someone to come along and put together a reasonably source article. -- Jreferee (talk) 01:08, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn clearly a claim of notability was made. The only real issue is if it's credible. The company existed and made pianos. They aren't exactly in high demand from what I can tell. But I can't show that the claim is not credible. Further, I'd be somewhat surprised if there isn't enough RSes in paper form to meet our inclusion guidelines--reviews of pianos seems a likely thing. So not an A7 unless someone can state with authority that the claims are not credible. Certainly worth an AfD. Hobit (talk) 15:41, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review DGG ( talk ) 17:19, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- overturn when an article like this is challenged in good faith, it's fairer to have the community decide -- which also gives a chance for the community to find sourcing. It seems reasonable that a piano company with a 40 year history might be notable,-- it depends on whether there are reviews etc. to be found. 7 yearsafo, we sometimes absurdly interpreted claim for importance as meaning that the article lead had to contain the word "important" or "notable." In recent years wemean there is material in the article that gives a good faith indication of significance, no matter how the article is worded. DGG ( talk ) 17:26, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- List at AfD as a contested speedy. I'm not seeing any obvious good sources, but they sell on eBay. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:21, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and list at AFD, if there is any doubt at all with an A7, reject the speedy and deal with it another way. I don't think this'll survive AFD, but it's not clearcut enough for A7. Lankiveil (speak to me) 11:17, 21 January 2014 (UTC).[reply]
- Overturn and list at AFD. Not clearly an A7, and the puffery in the text was curable. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 13:34, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. Removing the puffery leaves just the opening sentence. Drmies (talk) 16:56, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - valid A7? Yes, I'd have done it. If there are sources, the sensible course of action is to userfy, add them, then push back to the mainspace. If there ain't, AfD is going to axe it. This seems like the wrong venue. WilyD 10:37, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I view A7s as "my band that just started playing at a local bar for the first time yesterday" not "company that made real products still identified with it by brand name for 30+ years". Even ignoring the puffery, there is good reason to suspect it has a real shot at meeting our inclusion guidelines (though sources are likely all paper). That seems like something that belongs at AfD. Hobit (talk) 12:26, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The article gives no indication it has any shot at meeting WP:N after a search. Most A7s are not explicitly non-notable, but read like this one "John's table company makes tables", or "We Recycle is a band from Australia". Any subject could be notable, but most aren't. There's nothing here to make one suspect there are sources. But that's neither here nor there - if there are sources to be found, the wise thing to do is find them, and render this discussion moot - otherwise, it'll get sent to AfD, which might as well be sending it to the wood chipper - it has no chance of survival. WilyD 13:08, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- List it at AfD. There's reasonable doubt about the A7, and "wouldn't survive an AfD" isn't a speedy deletion criterion.—S Marshall T/C 13:22, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- No, but "does not make an assertion of significance" is a speedy deletion criterion, and "will be deleted at AfD" is a good reason to choose an outcome other than "Send to AfD to be deleted" at DRV. If there are really any sources (I'm sceptical, but let's say), and someone is willing to put in the work to find them, then it should be userfied to that person so they can do so. This conversation is strongly suggestive that no such person exists. "Undelete, then send to AfD to redelete" is just silly (and a waste of everyone's time). WilyD 14:43, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- These remarks, and some others here, seem to bear rather little relationship to the WP:CSD policy statement or to the A7 criterion in particular. It really is worth reading them through from time to time. However, I realise that the document may be so badly written that it does not describe consensus decisions regarding appropriate CSD standards. If so, a substantial rewrite is overdue. Thincat (talk) 23:11, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn but list at AFD. This is not one of the "most obvious cases" of an article with "no indication of importance". There are several claims that, if true, are of substantial importance. Likewise, if the article has been impartially written and the statements are true (and I think this is possible), they are not puffery. Matters like this require discussion. Thincat (talk) 23:29, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse no claim of notability; mere puffery is insufficient. If I write an article about my goldfish and say it's a notable niche goldfish, it survives A7 in some editors' views??? We waste much time on "saving" unsourced garbage that has no claim to notability. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 07:38, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse, I can't find a single source. Nobody at this DR has presented a single source. Not one! Only the ebay item on auction which has just ended now, which could be digitally manipulated for all we know. I'd be more inclined to consider this request seriously if someone indicated they have sources that they could add. The article under review did not provide information required to make the article credible - names, facts, figures, ... details. None to be found. (i.e. why is it notable? who has purchased one? how many were made, etc) All we have is the org name and a year range which is extraordinarily long. If it isnt A7, it is G3 (hoax) until proven otherwise, either by sources, or by statements that can be researched. Userfy it if necessary. John Vandenberg (chat) 11:36, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Wow. I apologize for being rude here, but I'd hope most long-standing admins would have a better sense of our speedy deletion criteria than this. If you were at RfA with an answer like this, you'd have little chance of passing. Please read the speedy deletion talk page (where this case is being discussed). We don't speedy delete anything, even BLPs, solely because it isn't sourced (that's for BLP prod). And while this may be a hoax (I can't find a RS on-line) there are about 10 auctions, with pictures and in many case buyers, for Ritmeyer pianos. So it certinaly isn't a blatant hoax which is what A3 requires. If you think it's a blatant hoax, I'll take a $100 bet on the issue. I'm much more than 50% certain a company named Ritmeyer produced pianos. And if you aren't a lot more than 50% sure, you shouldn't be calling it a blatant anything. Given the time frame claimed, it is likely that paper sources cover this in detail. There are lots of notable topics that the web doesn't cover. At least until we do. Hobit (talk) 14:28, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed it does not need to be sourced, but it does need to be credible. The company may not be a hoax (I personally would say greater than 50% chance it is real, as I have found one advert from 1957), but the article content appears to be one. 90% of it would be tagged with fact tags and removed quite promptly. The most easily falsifiable is the article states that "influential inventions within the area of piano development". That isnt credible. Who was influenced? I have access to most digitalised resources, including abstracting services not part of 'the (googlable) web', and I dont get any hits other than the above advert. I personally would have shipped it off to Afd, but we're at DR, and the only argument put forward is a bureaucratic one, with nobody even attempting to put forward any sources. I'm usually a stickler for bureaucratic processing with there is a real dispute, but I cant see how it helps here, as nobody has given any evidence that this could be a viable topic. If the author or others believe it is viable, the userifying it lets them continue working. The admin made a decent call from what I can see. Could you please link to the 10 ebay auctions you have found? John Vandenberg (chat) 15:52, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- My concern is that if DRV upholds something that isn't actually a speedy deletion candidate, we'll see more and more out of process deletions. It isn't an A7 or a G3 and DRV shouldn't uphold it as one. It isn't close IMO, but I realize that could be debatable. Given your resources (which I lack) it may well be there isn't anything of significance here. But sending it to AfD gives people a realistic chance to source it. There may well be someone with paper sources that would see this (again, I find it very likely a company that has been around as long as this one has reliable paper sources). There is no reason not to give it a shot at AfD. As far as auction goes this search gets most of them. (Most, but but all are on e-bay). Hobit (talk) 15:50, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I think(read:hope) there are lots of people watching to prevent individual cases like this becoming justification for CSDs becoming useless. I also expect(but again read:hope) the admin made a judgement call here-it is one I cant find a reason to contradict at least. There will definitely be print sources, and it may be that they can prove significance, but i'll bet it isnt they cant back the statements in this article. That would require many extensive compendium of music history (Oxford, Cambridge, etc) all omitting the contribution of the Ritmeyer, which also happened to never file a patent. There may be some other significance, and as an inclusion I would be happy with only a factual account of a mediocre contribution to the relevant discipline if it is niche. But this looks like an ebay item description recycled as an encyclopedia article, with no sources, and time to coincide with an actual ebay listing. My alarm bells are ringing! When I search ebay, and skimming the search results you point at, I can only find items which mention the one ebay auction as a 'see also'. i.e. lots of hits, but only one item. If there are more than one item on ebay, I missed it in my initial search and also now when I've looked at your results. i.e. links to ebay items instead of search results would be great. John Vandenberg (chat) 16:39, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse- There's a good case that A7 applies and, even if it didn't, it's obvious that this article could not survive an AFD so undeleting it would just be process for the sake of process and a huge waste of time. Reyk YO! 04:49, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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