- Joseph J. Allaire (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
The page deletion resulted from factual inaccuracies in the deletion discussion. I reached out to the administrator who deleted the page, User:Sandstein, and was told that because I missed the deletion discussion, the facts basically don't matter. This seems very un-Wikipedia to me.
I've highlighted and provided comments on the inaccuracies in the deletion review below.
> "(note that his brother Jeremy Allaire, is notable as the inventor of ColdFusion but that's his brother, not himself)"
This is the other way around. Joseph J Allaire was actually the inventor of ColdFusion rather than Jeremy Allaire (Jeremy provided input but otherwise didn't participate in the development of the product). Source: Data Intensive Computing for Biodiversity: "The first version of ColdFusion (then called Cold Fusion) was released in 1995, written almost entirely by one man, JJ Allaire.
> "add a note on the brother's page about Joseph's minor involvement in his brother's enterprise -- sibling rivalry!!!"
This is also incorrect. Joseph was the principal founder and leader of the company rather than Jeremy. He was both the developer of ColdFusion and founding CEO. After hiring an outside CEO Joseph continued as Chairman and Executive Vice President of Products. Jeremy was a critical part of the origin and evolution of the company but formally joined it about a year after its founding and subsequently held the positions of Director of Technology and Chief Technology Officer. You can verify much of this by reviewing the company's S1 filing with the SEC, just search for all instances of "Jeremy" and "Joseph" and note the accountings of role, etc.
> "No notability outside being the ceo of Altaiere...he only additional thing this individual did is devised one of the minor components of what became the MS toolbar"
This is also an incomplete account, and not just in the name of the company (Allaire). Joseph has developed a number of other highly successful software products:
Would it be possible to reinstate the page? 10mbt (talk) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment there is at least one problem with your source which says that JJ was the sole author of the original Cold Fusion. It cites that information to Wikipedia, looking back in our history it's here. That refers to an articles on TopHosts.com as its source. In the wayback machine I can find that here. But that (a) I'm not sure is reliable anyway, it seems to be user submitted content and no reason to beleive it's fact checked etc. and (b) doesn't support the claim made anyway. So we have no reliable source to support the original authorship of ColdFusion. --86.2.216.5 (talk) 20:34, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia's notability guidelines are largely based on the existence of significant coverage of the subject in third-party reliable sources. The article didn't cite any such sources and none were provided in the deletion discussion. I would suggest that anyone who wants the deletion to be overturned first try to locate such sources and post them for review. Even if the subject can reasonably be described as the inventor of ColdFusion it is unlikely that we would want to have a stand-alone article on him unless the sourcing can be improved. Hut 8.5 12:23, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse because the close reflected the discussion and it is not the job of a closer to decide what is "true". However, if there has been a mistake this should be corrected and the first step would be to create a well-referenced draft article. By our guidelines notability isn't primarily decided by whether someone is a lead architect or a manager but it depends of what the hacks write. However, even if someone is notable, for an adequate biographical article we still need to have sufficient reliably referenced material to tell us something worthwhile. And, hypothetically, if a page is merely a pastiche of an encyclopedia article and it contains just fluffy dross, I'll vote "delete" on it because such material is unencyclopedic. Thincat (talk) 14:06, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- CommentHere's a source: an IDC report hosted by Adobe that recognizes JJ as the creator of ColdFusion in 1995. The S1 filing is also available. I'm attempting to right an important wrong; Jeremy is too often credited with being the sole creator of ColdFusion, when in reality, JJ was the author. There are plenty of articles available about the importance of ColdFusion (here's one) and the prominence of Allaire Corp., which the Allaire brother grew to a public company then sold to Macromedia. Additionally, not only is JJ the author of ColdFusion, he's also developed the Lose It! app, which has tens millions of users across the world, as well as R Studio, one of the most popular development environments for R. 10mbt (talk) 17:21, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- To meet the WP:GNG though you'll need non-trivial coverage in multiple independant reliable sources about him. Your or my view of the signficance or otherwise of his contributions is not how notability is assessed. Given your statement I'm attempting to right an important wrong you might like to refer to righting great wrongs and wikipedia is not a soapbox --86.2.216.5 (talk) 23:22, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment (I was the nominator of the afd), but if he is notable there should be an article. As suggested, the best way to show there is notability is to try to write the article in draft space. It can then be evaluated more appropriately than here. DGG ( talk ) 03:49, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse, but relist. Let's start with the simple part; given the discussion that existed, there's no possible way this could have been closed any other way. But, there is an assertion here about a factual error in the basic premise as to why this should have been deleted. That needs to get resolved, and it's never going to get resolved here at DRV. So, I suggest we re-open the existing discussion and let that run for another week. Writing a new version of the article in draft space, with appropriate references, wouldn't be a bad alternative. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:05, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I have some sources that should put the discussion of both his notoriety and his importance at Allaire to rest now.
- * Here's an article from the WSJ that reads, "[Allaire Corp.] company founder J.J. Allaire."
- * Here's a 1999 press release discussing J.J. and Jeremy earning the Massachusetts Interactive Media Council (MIMC) Young Entrepreneurs of the Year award, citing J.J. as the founder of Allaire Corp.
- * A Fast Company article lists J.J. as founder of Allaire Corp. Another from the Boston Globe listing J.J. as founder.
- * A Boston Business Journal piece details Lose It!'s ascent to and long reign at the top of the Apple App Store weight-loss charts and lists J.J. as the initial developer.
- * Ed Bott article that describes J.J. as founder of Allaire and creator of Windows Live Writer.″
- * J.J. on the Forbes List of Most Notable Macalester Alumni
- * PC Mag article that reads, "J. J. Allaire, creator of the Web application server ColdFusion (acquired by Macromedia), is now chairman and CEO of Onfolio, which offers a Web research utility of the same name."
- * Venture Fizz profile of Charles Teague that describes J.J. as the founder of Allaire Corp. and Charles Teague as his first employee.
What are the next steps? Should I write a draft article? 10mbt (talk) 15:11, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Those may indeed be sufficient to update the articles on various topics to note his involvement, however to have a bio on him, we need sources about him, not passing mentions, not brief statements in the context of other things, or directory type listings, or words he's written, but sources where the topic of him is a significant focus. (they also need to be intellectually independant, so the press release which is the second you list here is unlikely to be suitable). This is what WP:GNG requires. Do we have those? --86.2.216.5 (talk) 19:00, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I added a draft article with the improved sources. Please take a look if interested! 10mbt (talk) 15:03, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse- based on that discussion, there is no way the closing admin could have done differently. Allow recreation if better sources have since turned up. Reyk YO! 12:27, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I added a draft article with the improved sources. Please take a look if interested! 10mbt (talk) 15:03, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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