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Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2024 April 12

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12 April 2024[edit]

  • Century Financial LLC – The deletion is endorsed, and there is consensus to list this topic at WP:DEEPER and to add it to the title blacklist. People who are good at regex are invited to do so. Sandstein 06:48, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Century Financial LLC (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Page was speedily deleted. This a a new articles, new content, new sources. Pls could you restore Francisjk2020 (talk) 08:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse deletion as a page previously deleted via an AfD. I cannot view the original or recreated article, or if as the proposer asserts, it had "new content, new sources". I trust that JBW would have done reasonable due diligence on comparing with the AfD version before proceeding with the CSD. It seems the title of the page was changed too, maybe to try and get it accepted through the backdoor, but I note from the history of the AfD article that it has already been recreated several times without merit. Bungle (talkcontribs) 08:43, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • If it's a new article with new content, then use the AFC process to have it evaluated on its own merits. Sneaking around create protection ("salting") is not behavior consistent with good faith. While it may be a mistake from ignorance, anyone who is going to write a policy-compliant article on a corporation should know better. Jclemens (talk) 08:55, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I deleted the article. Unfortunately at present I am short of time, but in a few hours I may possibly come back and say a few more things. For the present, though, I'll say this. This article has been created numerous times and deleted. It has been the subject of at least two deletion discussions, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Century Financial Consultancy and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Century Financial, each of which produced a "delete" outcome. All of the numerous creations of the article have been substantially similar, and the concerns raised in the two deletion discussions substantially apply to all of them. There are different views among editors as to how near to identical a new version of a page has to be to a deleted version to qualify for a G4 deletion, but usually if a deletion of mine is questioned, I give a generous interpretation, and undelete the article if I think there is any reasonable case for saying it's different, with the possibility of another AfD if appropriate. However, there has to be a limit to this. G4 is intended to prevent wasting editors' time by repeating at a new AfD the same arguments as have already been discussed. That purpose is not achieved if an editor repeatedly creates substantially similar articles, but makes some changes each time so they can say "It's a different article, so it can't be deleted without everybody spending more time discussing it again, and going through the same arguments yet again." This is unambiguously one of a string of attempts, at least some of them by one person, to establish an article which has repeatedly been discussed and found to be unsuitable. There has to be a time to say "enough is enough; we are not going to keep discussing essentially the same article endlessly." The history of the article strongly suggests paid editing; if so the owners of the business would be well advised to put their money into advertising it on some other platform. JBW (talk) 10:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do not allow recreation and salt [blacklist 09:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)] also this name. This is salted at two other names after two AfDs and tendentious recreations. Require submission of a draft suitable for a review at DRV for recreation. There is no need to endorse or overturn the G4 deletion, that's not the important aspect here.—Alalch E. 10:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is the third title this user has created this content at, after the previous ones were deleted and salted. It wasn't a "new article with new content"; the two-bullet-point Timeline section was removed, two sentences were added, and a handful of new references with exactly the same problems as the previous ones were piled on to anodyne statements already cited to four or five press releases. We shouldn't be looking at restoring this for yet another one-sided afd; we should be looking at blacklisting the title and blocking the author. —Cryptic 10:55, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and keep salted, along with any other title-gaming variants. The main difference between this version and the one deleted in the last AfD is that this one includes, It was voted as one of the best places to work in the GCC, while the older one had, It was voted as one of the best workplaces for women to work in the GCC. The cited source clearly says "for women". I think it is warranted to run a CU on the editors involved; the whole thing smells of WP:PAID. Owen× 12:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have just discovered that the same editor previously took this to Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2023 December 19, where deletion was endorsed. I think this reinforces still further the view that enough is enough, and Francisjk2020 needs to accept that consensus is against them, and drop their persistent and disruptive attempts to get round that consensus. JBW (talk) 12:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think you're being unrealistic here. Francisjk2020 likely gets paid to keep the page in place, and will not stop until they and their socks get banned. Our best course of action is to waste as little time as possible on these disruptions. Owen× 14:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @OwenX: I can only assume that your comment "I think you're being unrealistic here" means that you took my comment "needs to accept..." as implying that I thought that was likely to happen. My "needs to" was "should" rather than "is likely to". JBW (talk) 15:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Got it. Owen× 16:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and close as disruption. Since it's clear SALT doesn't work, time to look at a block since Francis doesn't respect that their opinion doesn't overrule consensus. Star Mississippi 13:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and salt clearly tendentious editing. SportingFlyer T·C 06:31, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - This is an obvious case of the gaming of names. If the appellant really thinks that the subject satisfies corporate notability, they are more likely to get an article approved sometime by submitting a draft than by trying to change the title. The company is more likely to get the Internet coverage it wants by paying to improve its own web site, which is under its control, than by clumsy efforts to manipulate Wikipedia. Consider Title Blacklist. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse but do not salt or place it in the title blacklist. There is no way for this to have its own article. The reason I am opposing salting or blacklisting is because it is really harmful. Toadette (Let's talk together!) 14:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Harmful to whom? How? I don't think a title blacklisting is necessary because someone should just block Francisjk2020 as WP:NOTHERE instead, but it wouldn't cause any harm. * Pppery * it has begun... 04:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The DRV applicant failed to notify me (as the closer of the XfD discussion), as required by step 2 of the DRV instructions. Notwithstanding this, for me this is a pretty clear endorse deletion and salting as closer - and the salting should absolutely be maintained. I cannot understand the comment immediately above me which suggests salting is "really harmful", with no elucidation as to how said harm is caused. Daniel (talk) 07:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I strongly oppose salting. This page has been re-created a very large number of times, under different titles. My experience over the years is that in this situation salting at the best achieves nothing, and at the worst can be very counterproductive. One or more people have put in a large amount of work over a long period in working to get the article established. (Francisjk2020 is just the latest in a string of accounts.) If they still wish to persist in trying to establish the article, they won't be stopped by salting; in the past their response to salting has been to switch to new titles, and there's nothing to stop them doing the same again. Therefore salting will stand zero chance of stopping re-creation. On the other hand, salting will make it certain, instead of just likely, that the next re-creation will be under a new title, and we can watch existing titles, but we can't watch every conceivable new title that they could possibly come up with. Therefore salting stands a significant chance of increasing the likelihood of a new copy of the article getting under the radar. This is not just a theoretical possibilities: I have seen it happen many times. A case in point came to my attention just a few days ago. An article had been repeatedly created and then salted in 2013, and not very long after it was recreated under a new name. It remained undetected until, as I say, just a few days ago. There are situations where salting can help, but this is absolutely not one of them. Title blacklisting stands a much better chance ofcworking, as it can deal with patterns of titles, rather than just exact titles that we specify, but I am still not sure about its usefulness in the present case, as it is still possible for a sufficiently determined spammer (which is what we are dealing with) to find titles that aren't blocked.
  • Pinging editors have have made any mention above of salting: Jclemens, Alalch E., OwenX, Star Mississippi, SportingFlyer, ToadetteEdit, Daniel. JBW (talk) 09:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks, yes, I said "salt" more abstractly in the sense of technically prevent recreation. I agree that title blacklisting is the correct action.—Alalch E. 09:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would be fine with a title blacklist instead of salting, although I don't agree that just because something isn't likely to effectively deter a bad faith editor means we shouldn't do it. Sometimes, just knowing that create protection was dodged, as it was in this case, gives information about motivation and good-faith on its own. Jclemens (talk) 11:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with you that SALT isn't working anyway, which is why I suggested a block. I'd be fine too with title blacklist as well @JBW. @ToadetteEdit why do you find either of those harmful? Star Mississippi 12:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I still endorse any decision that prevents an editor from creating an article at that title. SportingFlyer T·C 16:17, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I also support title blacklisting in the place of salting - agree it is more effective, although salting is (and was at the time) an appropriate measure also, if slightly less effective. Daniel (talk) 23:33, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse per Robert McClenon. Coastie43 (talk) 10:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and consider listing at WP:DEEPER. No opposition to title blacklist, salting, etc. Stifle (talk) 08:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I support the suggestion by User:Stifle that the title be listed at DEEPER because this is a case not only of the gaming of titles but of the misuse of DRV to facilitate the gaming of titles. We don't need direct evidence to know that this is a case of paid editing. Other than endorsing the closure, which is obvious, the question is what else to do:
      • List at DEEPER? Yes, a clear case.
      • SALT the additional titles? Probably not, because it is just a little easier to see the record of previous creations at the same title and do a G4 as to notice that a new title has been used and do a G4.
      • Title blacklist? - Yes. The spammers may try to work around the regex, but, inmy opinion, spammers are often stupid about that. These spammers in particular are likely instead to come back to DRV, and can discover a deeper well, pun intended.
      • Block the editors? Probably, but DRV is a content forum. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Amy Eden (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Discussed with closing admin here. Only 1 person !voted redirect. The consensus seems to be delete. LibStar (talk) 01:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse as a viable ATD. No reason made not to. Star Mississippi 02:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse per the above, but more importantly: Delete !voters had plenty of time to argue against a redirection; no one did. Redirection to a relevant, notable parent topic is almost always a great ATD for a distinct topic that fails inclusion solely on notability grounds. Jclemens (talk) 03:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You're assuming that delete !voters aren't against redirect, I take a delete !vote as one for delete not one for redirect. LibStar (talk) 03:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What is the policy basis for a deletion without redirection? Since I know that there isn't one, it would be rude of me to ABF that voters intended a non-policy-based outcome when they didn't explicitly argue for such. Jclemens (talk) 04:24, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak endorse Weak only because the consensus was clearly delete, I probably would have closed it as a delete, and I want to call attention to that. However a viable ATD is always welcome and I have no problem with that outcome. SportingFlyer T·C 03:44, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I have a confession to make: Unless the consensus is unanimous to delete, I like to look for ATD. It's because there still resides in me a small, tiny hope that maybe some day, we can find a use for content that has been written with good intentions. And, even if the article is crap, I think redirects are useful for readers looking for subjects through search. Also, in the over three years I've been putting in time closing AFDs, I've found very few editors who object to redirects. But there are some who seemingly want a subject and its page title obliterated from the project. I don't agree but editors have different preferences. LibStar seems to be the latter. There was one editor who suggested a redirect, though it was not a bolded comment, and I took that suggestion. If no editor had mentioned a redirect, I never would have closed this discussion as a redirect because that would be me, the closer, introducing a option that had not been suggested by the participants. But it was suggested by an editor. When LibStar came to my talk page upset with the closure, I offered what I thought was a compromise, I would delete the article and then create a redirect from that article page title to the target article. But that was not an acceptable option either. So, here we are. Thanks for hearing me out. Liz Read! Talk! 06:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not upset at all. In fact, if this deletion review ends up endorsing the closure, I will accept that. Wikipedia is not the end all be all of life. LibStar (talk) 06:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It seems to me that the offer to delete and redirect would have saved a lot of time and angst. That is a delete closure. Anyone can create a new redirect after a delete closure, and an objection to that redirect would need to be taken to RfD. But why? The page history would not be visible and this person was a mayor so it is a reasonable search term. Perhaps the nom. can withdraw this and return to that offer. Or perhaps that ship has sailed. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    On what basis would a deletion of an article with valid a redirect target, whose only issue is lack of notability, be a policy-preferred outcome? What is the benefit to the encyclopedia or its readers if only admins can see the deleted content? Jclemens (talk) 08:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You might want to see Bungle's reply below. I'd have voted redirect if I had seen this, but I didn't. But after the keep !voter suggested a redirect as an ATD, the AfD gained 4 additional deletes, so we can't say the redirect suggestion was not considered. The consensus was clearly delete here. And DRV, as we are often told, is not about relitigating the AfD but assessing whether the close correctly assessed the consensus.
    However participants in an AfD may not always fully appreciate the options, and sometimes Liz gives very helpful guidance in a relist comment. She might have written something like "would delete voters consider the above redirect suggestion" or similar in her relist comment. Liz is unusual amongst relisting closers in doing this, and I find it to be a very good and helpful practice. That she didn't do it here is certainly not blameworthy, as this is very much an additional aid/service that she sometimes employs on a grace and favour basis. But had that been in the relist comment, we might have seen some re-evaluation. Or not! It can be hard to get !voters to look again. But at least additional !voters would have had that steer that the option is available. I also note the relist was not then left for a full week, and the only additional !vote was another delete. So... if the closer's job is to assess consensus, then it is hard to assess this one as anything other than delete. Liz offered to amend her close to delete, followed by creation of a redirect - which any editor, including Liz, is perfectly entitled to do. It was a fair offer, and in the big plan of things, having this text in visible rather than hidden page history is neither here nor there. So redirect is a perfectly good outcome in my opinion, and much time and angst could have been saved by working with Liz on this. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak endorse for broadly the same reasons as SportingFlyer. A redirect is a de-facto delete, except that it can be easily reverted, although by the same token a deleted page can be recreated. That said, even if this seems an appropriate ATD, it feels like a supervote as there was, for me, quite an overwhelming majority advocating a straight "delete" that this should have been the default outcome. A redirect, or anything else, could have been done separate to the AfD. Seeing as this page could have been uncontroversially redirected after a deletion, then the close is not in itself inappropriate, but in this instance i'd have usually expected the outcome as "delete". Bungle (talkcontribs) 08:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And how would having the history of this article inaccessible to non-admins improve the encyclopedia vs. it being preserved under the redirect? Jclemens (talk) 08:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jclemens: my point was around the determining of consensus, not so much the aesthetics of a clean redirect. This discussion is just to determine if the reached outcome is correct and appropriate, and my view is, while strictly maybe not correct per consensus, is none the less probably appropriate. Just be mindful not to overly hound participants though, please, particularly as so far everyone has endorsed the decision in some form. Bungle (talkcontribs) 09:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's fair advice; my intent in questioning isn't to hound, so much as highlight the "Why?" behind the policies. I've been pursuing a curationist approach to the inclusionist/deletionist wars for quite some time, and if I accomplish nothing else in my Wikipedia career, deemphasizing binary delete/keep, win/lose thinking would be a satisfactory accomplishment. Having said that, I would dispute that identifying an ATD is against consensus in this or similar cases, in that it honors the finding that the individual is insufficiently notable for her own article, removes the content from mainspace, and allows all the nonproblematic (no promo, BLP, etc. issues) to remain in article history. It's especially important for admins to have the freedom to implement relatively obvious ATDs like this despite the nose counting, because that avoids pointless posturing like "keep or redirect" !votes, when everyone can see that at the time of such a !vote there aren't sufficient sources identified. Honesty and candor should result in optimum outcomes in a well-run consensus determination process, and I think Liz does it very well. Jclemens (talk) 00:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. This is the outcome suggested under policy. It was decided against a standalone article for the reason that the topic isn't notable. That does not by itself indicate that it is important to make the page history inaccessible. If the consensus to delete had formed around other reasons, such as BLP problems, it would not have been appropriate to redirect and leave the history accessible. But there is no such problem here.—Alalch E. 10:25, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why should anyone bother commenting at afd if we're just going to endorse its treatment as a closer's suggestion box? —Cryptic 10:59, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I have a great deal of respect for Liz, whom I regard as one of our best administrators. However, I find it alarming to see an administrator saying "Unless the consensus is unanimous to delete, I like to look for ATD. It's because there still resides in me a small, tiny hope that ..." A closing administrator absolutely should not allow their personal opinions or "hopes" to influence how they close a discussion, at all. Unlike Liz, I don't regularly close deletion discussions, but on the infrequent occasions when I do so, I quite often close them in ways which are strongly opposed to my own preferences. I do not wish to comment on the closure of the particular discussion being considered here, but I feel very strongly about the principle in general. JBW (talk) 11:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and rescind offer to redirect over delete. The AfD determined that the subject did not meet our threshold of notability. It did not determine that the content violated policy. The appellant has no basis to demand deletion under the redirect, and has no locus standi to even request the removal of a redirect without an RfD. The entire appeal comes across as based on spite, rather than on a genuine interest in improving the project. I assumed good faith until I saw the appellant's refusal to accept the closing admin's compromise. This appellant will not be satisfied with any outcome different from their nomination, regardless of policy or benefit to WP. Owen× 12:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. A vote to delete as not notable and a vote to redirect are one in the same, the only difference being that the latter specifies a redirect target. None of the delete votes stated any opposition to redirect, and the AFD nominator also opined that redirect was a viable option after the redirect vote came in. Redirect is a reasonable close, and in this case the correct close (had delete been the outcome and someone challenged that at DRV, I would have voted to overturn to redirect with history restored). Frank Anchor 14:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse, per User:Alalch E.. Fundamentally, Liz was following the policy spelled out at WP:ATD, but perhaps more importantly was following a long-standing consensus that if an ATD has been suggested and not objected to then it is preferable to use that ATD rather than to delete history. (Among other minor benefits, it saves a future administrator the effort of doing a WP:REFUND.) Suriname0 (talk) 20:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. When in doubt, don't delete. A consensus that a topic is not notable does not make redirection or history preservation inappropriate. losers should always consider ATD's that have been suggested in a discussion and implement them if they are appropriate. Eluchil404 (talk) 20:25, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - The consensus was Delete, and redirects are cheap, and the redirect is a valid one, so deleting the redirect would be silly. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do not endorse, I see a consensus to delete that the redirect close overruled. WP:Consensus is the controlling policy.
    • Regarding WP:Deletion policy#Alternatives to deletion (policy, shortcut WP:ATD), I wrote a policy and consensus analysis that Alternatives to deletion are not preferred over deletion in July 2022. There have been subsequent discussions, but no material policy changes.
    • I reviewed the last 12 months of DRVs containing "ATD" and deciding between delete and redirect. Please see the table on the talk page. Including this one, there are six total: three each of delete and redirect. The redirect AfDs were all closed by Liz, while the deletes had different closers. Assuming that this is endorsed, the four endorses will be evenly split.
    • If the article had been deleted, any autoconfirmed user could create a redirect. The history is only potentially useful for article content if and when Eden becomes notable – undeleting may never be necessary – and it would be outdated and overly focused on her campaign.
    Flatscan (talk) 04:25, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, yes... you don't see it the way the endorsers do. Without rehashing why I think you're wrong on that point, I don't recall yet seeing a good articulation of why doing things your way would benefit either or editors or our readers. Making it easier to just count noses and call that consensus makes things easier for closers, no question about it. But the readers? Jclemens (talk) 05:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The AfD reached the consensus that the history had no value as article content. I searched WP: space for benefit reader, finding WP:Purpose (information page), WP:Wikipedia is for readers (essay), and WP:About (not tagged). None of them mention page history. Did you have a policy, guideline, or other page in mind? Flatscan (talk) 04:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Deletion is not the default, but only an option when no other alternative applies. WP:DGFA makes this clear. If page history were not valuable, ATDs of redirect or merge would not exist. Jclemens (talk) 17:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If you mean #11 in WP:Deletion guidelines for administrators#On deleting pages (permanent link in case the numbering is changed), it describes copying content to another article: merging, not just redirecting. Per WP:Copying within Wikipedia (guideline), the source page's history is generally required to provide attribution. Flatscan (talk) 04:25, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I was actually referencing the bolded point #4 of "Deciding whether to delete". I hadn't meant to be obscure there, but the fact that you were thinking I was referencing any other portion of that page is a surprise to me. That is, one should always read the big, bolded bits at the top of the page: the rest of it is about how to implement those overarching principles and must necessarily be read in light of them. Jclemens (talk) 06:11, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A redirect is a delete with history restored, and I see no reason that would preclude such a restoration at the discretion of any single admin (RFU). It may have been "more optimal" for the suggestion to redirect to be left as a !vote instead of immediately implemented, but that is outside the purview of DRV. We're not here to pick apart every single detail of how a close is implemented, only to determine whether it is within the discretion afforded our closers, and with broader discretion typical for substantially very similar closes, I don't see any case for an overturn except that there were an explicit, rather than implicit consensus that article history be deleted. Alpha3031 (tc) 10:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.