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20 May 2024[edit]

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Shane and Friends (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This podcast page definitely deserves to be restored. It was one of the biggest podcasts of the 2010s. How could it possible not meet notability standards? Nokia621 (talk) 18:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Speedy endorse - no policy and guideline based argument has been provided. You could try to make an actual argument based on the availability of coverage in reliable sources.
signed, Rosguill talk 18:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn Strike bolded !vote by nominator First of all, the original deletion had this argument: "Barely found anything about the podcast. Search results return only passing mentions." If you want to talk about baseless arguments, start there. The podcast was deleted from all major platforms due to a major controversial comments made by Dawson in several episodes. This was discussed by Business Insider, The Evening Standard, The New Zealand Herald and many more. When the podcast did air from 2013 to 2017, it was incredibly popular. USA Today credited him for partially reviving the podcasting genre in 2013. In 2015, iTunes featured the show in their "Best of 2015" podcast list. It is definitely notable enough to be restored and the original deletion (with 3 people deciding) had completely baseless arguments. Nokia621 (talk) 19:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That all appears to be coverage of Dawson himself primarily. Meanwhile, you seem to be misconstruing a Medium blog with 907 followers [1] for iTunes itself (and we generally don't report on single-vendor listings, WP:SINGLEVENDOR) signed, Rosguill talk 19:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The Medium blog was copying what iTunes Podcasts put on their page. I'm not misconstruing. Nokia621 (talk) 19:11, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    1) then why link the Medium source 2) moot per WP:SINGLEVENDOR. signed, Rosguill talk 19:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Because the 2015 Best of iTunes list was in their iTunes app, never on a site. Nokia621 (talk) 19:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In regards to single vendor, Spotify didn't even have podcasts until 2015, so there's few lists available. iTunes was one of the only providers and Soundcloud doesn't have lists. It was however on the Fullscreen app which is another platform, which he had an exclusive video deal with. Nokia621 (talk) 19:29, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy endorse. The minimally-attended AfD was closed as Redirect in July 2021. Since then, the appellant has been edit-warring, trying to restore the version prior to the AfD. The only reason they finally came here to DRV is that Rosguill correctly indef page-blocked them from that battle zone. Had they come here earlier, or presented new sources on the Talk page, I would have gladly considered a new discussion. But under the unclean hands legal doctrine, I refuse to entertain any petition coming from this disruptive editor relating to this or related pages. Not that they seem capable of mounting an argument better than, "But how can it not be notable?". Owen× ☎ 19:03, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You're factually incorrect. I had started this deletion review before he indefinitely page-blocked me. You can literally check the UTC timing. Also, you left this comment 1 minute after I gave a long explanation of why it is notable. So instead of insulting by calling me incapable of mounting arguments, why don't you fact-check your own lies? Nokia621 (talk) 19:08, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No, Owen is correct about the timing. As you should know, and can be seen from your block log, you were blocked at 09:56, 20 May 2024 EDT. You opened this DRV at 15:02, 20 May 2024 EDT. I later corrected the block, which I had initially intended to be indefinite but was instead implemented as 24-hours (which would be silly, for an edit war spanning over 3 years). Arguing that the block post-dates your actions here is pretty transparent wikilawyering. signed, Rosguill talk 19:14, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for admitting you did a temporary ban at first. Once again confirming that Owen was lying about this debate starting after being "indef page-blocked" (his words). How am I supposed to read your mind and know the 24 hour ban was an initial "mistake"? No offense, but you're gaslighting me to the max. And considering I don't read your mind, please don't read my mind saying my actions are "transparent", because you are way off-base. Nokia621 (talk) 19:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yet another DRV appellant who did not even bother discussing with the closer (me) before rushing to file here. I'm also going to speedy endorse (as closer) per Owen and Rosguill. Daniel (talk) 22:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. Good close. No deletion has occurred, so unless you are challenging the close, this is out of scope of DRV. If you want to revisit the matter, essentially wanting to re-WP:SPINOUT the podcast, propose it and seek consensus on the talk page of the redirect target. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse OP hasn't said anything policy-based and seems unlikely to do so. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 01:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse, except that this doesn't allege any error by the closer. Either Redirect or Relist would have been valid closes, and in 2021 a case could be made for overturning the Redirect to Relist. But, as per OwenX, the appellant has been edit-warring since then, and has passed up any chance to ask for a Relist.
      • DRV is not AFD Round 2, but the sources are garbage, so that the article should not have been Kept.
      • The redirect has not been locked. An editor in good standing may submit a draft with good sources for review to Articles for Creation. The appellant is not an editor in good standing with respect to this title.
      • DRV is a content forum, but the appellant is engaging in personal attacks, for which a real block may be in order. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Robert McClenon, regarding your 2nd dot point, it is irresponsible to advocate for any editor to create content forks in draftspace. This is not productive, much more likely will be a waste of time for all involved, and as with all content forking, it creates attribution hazards.
    Content on the Shane and Friends podcast is located at Shane Dawson, and per consensus evident in the AfD, that’s where it belongs. If new good sources are found, they should be added to Shane Dawson, and then, if a WP:SPINOUT is warranted, it should be proposed at Talk:Shane Dawson. Only then fork to draftspace if that’s the unlikely consensus on Talk:Shane Dawson. Do not just fork to draftspace alone and in silence. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    User:SmokeyJoe - I have reread the guideline on content forks, and I respectfully disagree with your disagreement. I have requested opinions at Village Pump (policy). I don't think that a draft and content that has been replaced by a redirect are pages of the same type, but we shall see what other editors think. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Draft Content Fork Question SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. No deletion to review, and spinning a page back out after a redirect does not need to come here; it can just be taken forward by building a consensus at the article talk page. Stifle (talk) 08:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Category:Estonian numismatists (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This was closed as "merge all" but there was no actual consensus to merge all (as opposed to merging only the ones that still have one member). Discussion with the closer at Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion/Working has failed to resolve matters. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Category:Roman villas in Germany (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This was closed as "merge" but there was no actual consensus to merge. Neither side provided any clear guidelines to back up their position, and the numbers were equal. This should have been a "no consensus" * Pppery * it has begun... 16:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pppery, for this one, the keep !votes referred (implicitly) to the deprecated WP:SMALLCAT guideline. The nom referred to Wikipedia:Categorization by saying it's not useful for navigation, which I felt was reasonable enough. — Qwerfjkltalk 17:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Useful for navigation" seems like a wholly subjective term to me, not a basis in which one can declare one side or the other right. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pppery, yes. This matter comes up fairly frequently at CfD; it would be nice to have some community consensus. — Qwerfjkltalk 17:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would indeed be nice to have such community consensus. But until that happens, would you be willing to revert your close and relist the CfD, so we can speedily close this DRV? Owen× ☎ 18:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OwenX, I don't see how relisting will help here, that's just kicking the can down the road. A no consensus closure, I could agree to. — Qwerfjkltalk 13:39, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A different can down a different road. Reverting your own close will allow an admin to close it in a way that better reflects consensus, or let it run for more views. You're not compelled to self-revert, of course. But it looks like this DRV is headed that way anyway, so the dignified thing to do would be to allow an early close. Owen× ☎ 13:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn, bad close. Consensus was to Keep. Insufficient rational, with User:Smasongarrison’s “for now” and “can be recreated” rendering his her !vote very weak, begging the question of why is she creating this busywork. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't misgender me. Mason (talk) 23:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies. I originally misidentified you, and became befuddled. My advice for nominators is that they should make a strong case in starting an XfD discussion. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:01, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Knowing SmokeyJoe, this would have been a total accident, and I'm sure it will be fixed once seen (ping @SmokeyJoe:) so we can focus on the review itself. Daniel (talk) 23:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless, I don't see the point of calling me out for this argument. There is an entire essay on this WP:Merge for now.Mason (talk) 23:51, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the link to the essay. I had never seen it before. I participated in many CfDs long ago, and I think that it suffers from excessive fiddling, busywork, and that “for now” fits that impression. I suggest that you change “for now” to “until when”. Give your audience something objective to respond to. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SmokeyJoe, it's until there's enough articles to populate the category, which may well be never. — Qwerfjkltalk 13:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn per Pppery. I will note that there's absolutely no reason to call out the nominator for this one, there just wasn't consensus. SportingFlyer T·C 03:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it proper to call out weak nominations. Weak nominations often lead to trainwrecks, even if there’s a good underlying case. SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The nomination was fine at the time it was made. The problem was the closure that didn't reflect consensus, not the nomination itself. * Pppery * it has begun... 05:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Although I'm clearly biased as the one called out, @SmokeyJoe, I think there were more constructive ways to say that the nomination could have been more compelling. However, I think that you made your argument less compelling by conflating two issues and implying that my efforts were pointless busywork. None of which was related to the closing itself.Mason (talk) 22:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don’t think “for now” conveys confidence. I feel it conveys hesitation. I had no idea that it was a term-of-art. I have raised my thought at Wikipedia talk:Merge for now#For now. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Interesting. Your perspective is one that I hadn't considered. So I appreciate it. I was not aware that perceptions of confidence or hesitation were things to be considered in a CFD. Or that acknowledging that the facts may change is a bad thing. I think it merely acknowledges that this situation for the category could change and that the the nominator is not opposed to revisiting the facts. Mason (talk) 20:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SportingFlyer, @SmokeyJoe, @Pppery, @OwenX, @Smasongarrison, @Daniel, would you all be okay with me changing my closure to no consensus, and then starting an RfC on the matter? — Qwerfjkltalk 13:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's at least one valid opinion in this DRV to overturn to Keep, so we can't just short-circuit the process unless SmokeyJoe changes their mind or this turns into a WP:SNOW situation. I appreciate you trying to build consensus here and close this sooner, but the best way to do that would be to revert your own close, and let an admin re-close or relist. There's no loss of face in taking your name off that CfD. On the contrary: the ability to admit one's mistake and promptly correct it is highly valued, and often comes up on the "Support" side at RfAs. As for an RfC, you are welcome to start one at any time. Owen× ☎ 14:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
“No consensus” is certainly defensible. An immediate RfC, no. SmokeyJoe (talk) 15:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I'm fine with non consensus, and agree with Owen that this reverting the close might be easier. I'm not sure what an RfC would do because we had one relatively recently one that ended in a snow for not reinstating small cat. Mason (talk) 22:18, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Smasongarrison, can you link to the RfC? I must have missed it. — Qwerfjkltalk 12:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to dig it up; my recollection was that @Thinker78 made it. Mason (talk) 19:54, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've reverted my closure, per all the comments above. — Qwerfjkltalk 12:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Owen× ☎ 14:12, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there some reason I shouldn't close this as no consensus now? Or have I become too heavily WP:INVOLVED to do so? The problem with CfD is that for a very long time there have been very few active admin closers so most discussions are closed by non-admins, and the discussion is now in limbo since the bot that processes old discussions doesn't deal with new discussions from months in the past being reopened. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No objection from me. Owen× ☎ 17:29, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pppery, I don't think expressing an opinion on my closure should disqualify you from closing it yourself; I, at least, have no problems with it. — Qwerfjkltalk 18:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
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