Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1998 Football League First Division play-off Final/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 30 July 2020 [1].

1998 Football League First Division play-off Final

Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:43, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so this one really is a good 'un. Outside of the ultimate classic (I may be biased), this play-off final is stuff of legend. It has been called possibly the most exciting match ever played at the old Wembley. Three apiece after regulation time, 4–4 after extra time and then penalties. I had the luxury of watching this all unfold in a pub near Loughborough (nothing better to do with myself at that time), and I remember it almost like it was yesterday. I will work tirelessly to address any constructive comments, and as always, thanks in advance for your time. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:43, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:08, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:53, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SUPPORT by Dweller

Please see comments below. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:17, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The sequence of scoring in the lead could be greatly simplified and in so doing allow a reader who doesn't recognise the names to follow the flow of the scoring. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:29, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well sure, what's your suggestion as it reads fine to me. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:48, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe remove the player names... with 8 goals to describe, there's an argument for it being excessive detail. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:18, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well only five different ones, and certainly not excessive to mention Mendonca (for example). The lead in this article can be quite sizeable. I've added a couple shout-outs to club names to help readers follow the flow. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:34, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:23, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How about some basic info about the Mexico match that was missed (friendly, presumably?) --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:23, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dweller I've only gone and done it! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:44, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've finished my tweaking and am good with whatever you and Lee decide below. This is an admirable article, easily FA quality. Support. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:28, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Oldelpaso

This is very good, I only have nitpicks.

Curbishley's assistant Les Reed left the club after the penalty shootout loss. - Win?
Gah, yes, done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:25, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We have Mendonca saying sorry to his mates in Sunderland before we learn he is from Sunderland. This could be rejigged.
Re-ordered. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:25, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The background section does a good job, but perhaps could mention expectations at the start of the season.
I'll see what I can find. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:25, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This gives a bit of a preview of the season. Harrias ^talk 12:40, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias lovely, thanks. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:43, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias (or anyone) any idea how to fix the Gale URL so it doesn't upset the {{cite web}} template? The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 13:49, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is that better? Harrias ^talk 14:07, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It is, thanks! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:13, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
·Maybe a brief mention of style or tactics. Its the Football League in the 90s so maybe 4-4-2 isn't unusual enough for sources to note, but for instance Peter Reid sides were noted for knocking it long, usually onto the head of Niall Quinn. Related to this, the formation diagram is unsourced. Oldelpaso (talk) 11:55, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what I can find. The 4-4-2 formations are sourced by the "Charlton scoop the jackpot" reference, not sure how you would like that presented? The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:25, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers Oldelpaso, addressed the easy ones, got to find a way of looking into the other two, may be (much) more difficult. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:25, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oldelpaso I've added some season preview comments which Harrias kindly helped with, and some of the nuggets from Reid's autobio which you helped me with (thanks!) I've struggled on the "style"/"tactics" query, predominantly because although you're bang on about the lump it to Quinn while Phillips sniffed around for scraps, that isn't really covered in any of the contemporary reports. If you have anything pertinent and referencerable then I'd be happy to add it. Also, I'd be a touch reluctant to add that for just one of the two sides, i.e. what was Curbishley's 1998 Charlton team playing like?? The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:47, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Its a fair point. Curbishley was at Charlton for many years but beyond cliched stuff about being well organised I can't find much about their style in that period. I'd view it as a nice to have, not an essential. Like you say, doing it for one team not the other would be lopsided. Oldelpaso (talk) 16:21, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oldelpaso what do you reckon then, anything else, I think I've covered the above now? I liked the quote from The Times reporter saying Curbs wouldn't amount to 'owt... The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:42, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's everything covered, all good as far as I'm concerned. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:48, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski

I may end up claiming points towards the wikicup. Hope you don't mind. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take a look at this article, and give some comments on how it meets the FA criteria in a little while. If you fancy doing some QPQ, I have a list of items that can be looked at here. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:45, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

while the teams placed from third to sixth place in the table took part in play-off semi-finals; - considering it doesn't go anywhere, can we just say that they took part in "a playoff tournament". The fact that they started at the semi-finals isn't that important. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I can't recall a single time when this was referred to as a "play-off tournament", it's universally referred to as the "play-offs" and more specifically "play-off semi-finals". The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The clubs won their semi-finals and competed for the final place in the Premier League's 1998–99 season. - this seems a litle bit redundant. We've already mentioned what the winner gets. Perhaps mention who defeated who in the semi-final. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to get into too much detail on the losers of semi-finals when this article is about the final itself. I've reworded a bit around the repeat mentions of promotion to the PL. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Winning the game was estimated to be worth between five and ten million pounds - not sure if this is a MOS:CURRENCY issue, but maybe £5-£10 million instead to avoid the lbs vs £ issue. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dweller changed this, perhaps you can duke it out with him. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
twenty minutes remaining - 20 minutes? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily, MOSNUM is fine with "twenty". The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Do we have a link for extra time? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Linked. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
weak strike - "weak" has a few connotations, is there a better word to describe it for the lede to suggest it's not very powerful? - not a major point. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it was weak in every suitable sense. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The 1998 play-off final is considered one of the most memorable and dramatic games played at Wembley. - by whom? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well it's expanded upon in the main body (as it should be) but I've added some more words to the lead. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We're bolding the teams in the table, is it worth specifically mentioning this is why they were bolded? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's self-explanatory, it's the two clubs involved in the final. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The Valley" is mentioned twice, maybe it's worth explicitly stating that it's Charlton's home ground, rather than simply linking? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
1987 Football League Second Division play-off Final - probably don't need to use the full name. Could just mention that they won the play-off final in 1987, then known as the Second Division. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see a problem here, it's explicit. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The match was broadcast live in the UK on Sky Sports. - any idea of international broadcasting? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No idea. I found nothing on that during my extensive searching. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Could we link extra time in the body as well?Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done per above. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
history of the play-offs - perhaps we should define this as "the play-offs in English football", as I'm sure this has happened in other play-offs in other countries/sports Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:57, 24 July 2020 (UTC)][reply]
I think it's clear in the context of this article that mentions of the play-offs relate only to the play-offs of English football. I'm not sure reiterating that for the final sentence of the article is particularly helpful. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- That's my lot on the first pass.

Lee Vilenski thanks, I've addressed and/or responded to each of your comments above. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by WA8MTWAYC

Excellent article, TRM. I have a few points. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 18:32, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"with what the BBC described as" maybe link BBC?
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Nationwide League Player of the Year" I understand Nationwide sponsored the FL, but isn't it better/clearer to say "First Division Player of the Year" (or was he Football League POTY)?
Yes, good point, we usually (correctly) drop these sponsorship terms in any case, so I've done that. It was for the "Nationwide League" so second to fourth tiers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Better to link 1996–97 FA Premier League in "a failure to score towards the end of the previous season" than in "first time of asking, having been relegated in the previous season".
Indeed, the downside of writing the article in bits-and-bobs and forgetting which linkable item came first! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Allan Johnston is overlinked in "to convert Alan Johnston's cross to score Sunderland's fifth", plus Alan > Allan.
Removed overlink and removed first name altogether as it's nugatory after his first full mention. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Link Sudden death (sport) in "and take the shootout to sudden death".
Linked. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe mention that Les Reed left Charlton to rejoin the Football Association (FA) in "Curbishley's assistant Les Reed...".
Nice point, added. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"In 2014, the English Football League listed it first" better to drop "English" as the competition was simply known as "Football League" in 2014.
Interesting point. The website this is referenced by has "EFL" logo so that's why I used the phrase. What do you think?
I would still put it as "FL" because the prose of the ref doesn't mention "EFL". It's certainly no biggie to me so it's up to you (of course). WA8MTWAYC (talk) 11:41, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WA8MTWAYC thanks so much for your comments, much appreciated. I've addressed them and/or responded to them above. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Good job, TRM. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 11:41, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Kosack

Link hat-trick in the lead.
"Charlton Athletic faced Ipswich Town in their play-off semi-finals", is there a need to reuse Athletic here? Both the mentions before and after this have dropped it.
"Dr Martens League", sponsored names should be avoided in favour of the competition's official name.
"went over the Charlton's crossbar", either the or Charlton's is wrong here
"In the 23rd Charlton", is minute missing here?
Quinn claimed that despite the loss, his team were the best footballing side in this division", there's an opening quotation mark missing from here somewhere.
"Miles Kent writing for the Bleacher Report in 2008 calling it", the double -ing here doesn't seem to work. Should it be called instead? The same with describing immediately after, should this be described?

Kosack thanks, I've addressed all your comments, without fail. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:07, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work TRM, a good read. The reviews above have ironed out much of any potential issues, a few minor things I noted are listed above. Kosack (talk) 13:57, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me, happy to support this. Kosack (talk) 14:14, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review – pass

In progress. Harrias ^talk 14:01, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Formatting and consistency

Some BBC sources list the publisher as BBC Sport, others as BBC News: be consistent.
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref #21 "Kinsella's Wembley gamble" is missing an access date.
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref #22, "Kirk, Liam (25 May 1998)" needs to be marked as subscription access and via the BNA.
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!)
Ref #28, "Varley, Nick (27 May 1998)" is missing an access date.
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!)
Ref #29, "Haylett, Trevor (26 May 1998)" needs to be marked as via Newspapers.com.
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!)
Ref #39, "Zola reveals World Cup agony" lists a location, but no other newspaper source does?
Removed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref #50, "Kent, Miles (14 October 2008)", Bleacher Report should be a work, not a publisher.
The target article has an italic title but is exclusively non-italicised throughout the body. I'll go for italics here, but the inconsistency needs addressing so this stops getting brought up. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref #51, "Top 100: the complete list" needs the dates tidying. It looks like "27 November 2009" should be the publishing date, and 8 October 2013 should be the archive date.
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Quality and coverage

All sources appear to be to high-quality, reliable sources.
Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I do wonder at the lack of inclusion of written histories of the clubs: Ramzan, David C. (2014). Charlton Athletic: A History. Amberley. ISBN 978-1445616575. and Collins, Mick (2002). The Rise & Rise Of Charlton Athletic: From Portakabins To Porto Captains. Mainstream. ISBN 978-1840186956. might be worth a look.
If I was writing the history of the club, I'd agree, the coverage of this specific singular football match is extensive here already. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've bought them both so I can also become a CAFC expert too. One is coming tomorrow, the other second hand from Amazon will take a week or so. Hopefully that won't hold up this source review, you can AGF that I'll include anything of relevance. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:20, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias Ramzan arrived half an hour ago so all three pages (£4 per page!) which cover the final have now been included. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Might be useful for 1987 Football League Second Division play-off Final too, then it might only be £3 per page! In seriousness, it looks good at a glance, but I'll have a proper look through in a bit. Harrias ^talk 16:54, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I did check that before I bought it last night actually, so you're right, it might serve two for the price of one! Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Right, that's enough from me for the moment. I have to prepare myself to see if United can avoid losing to Leicester. I'd appreciate it if you could take a look at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2010 Twenty20 Cup Final/archive1 if you get a chance. I will claim WikiCup points for this review, etc. Harrias ^talk 14:42, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias cheers, all addressed. That GAN is still waiting for you to return by the way! Enjoy the football. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All my concerns have been resolved, this passes the source review. Harrias ^talk 07:15, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: I think this is "oven ready" now. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:30, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: five supports, and image+source review passed? Time for the next one... The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:34, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, might not get to this today but feel free to start a new one. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:31, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Collins, Mick (2003) generates an ISBN error -- not holding up promotion because I have seen instances of false positives with this but perhaps you can check... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:45, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 13:46, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.