Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cuisine of the Thirteen Colonies/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 06:57, 6 July 2009 [1].

Cuisine of the Thirteen Colonies[edit]

Nominator(s): Jeremy (blah blah) 18:28, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this for featured article because it is an extremely well written and researched article on the historical cuisine of British Colonial America. Jeremy (blah blah) 18:28, 25 June 2009 (UTC) As a note, the primary editor of this article is not available for comment. I have nominated it on the strength of the article as it stands now. --Jeremy (blah blah) 09:30, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

images Given the subject of the article, I think the first image should be the food not the colonies, some of the images are stunning, and could really pull the reader into the article Fasach Nua (talk) 21:02, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm slightly hesitant about such a choice. Wouldn't it mean we'd have to choose among any of the four closely related yet distinct culinary cultures?
Peter Isotalo 12:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You could use a montage such as File:Greeks.JPG Fasach Nua (talk) 12:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Right now, you are missing Maryland and Pennsylvania. There is a lot of information on sea food, especially Oysters, being harvested out of the Chesapeake Bay by Marylanders. There is information suggesting that the St. Mary's River, which is home to the first settlement in Maryland, was filled with Oysters. Pennsylvania also had a lot of information. I find it a little worrisome that Delaware is limited to Quakers, when they were a minority. There are many, many German cuisines that were brought into Pennsylvania, and the ethnicity in the Colonies was not predominantly English (it was made up of Natives, English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Germans, French, and Dutch). Ottava Rima (talk) 20:18, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As for the English statement, yes there were other cultures, but the Colonies were under English rule and as such were influenced as a whole by English culture. Many of those that also came from other countries were people who had fled the English empire, moved to those other countries and then went to the Colonies. Additionally, the Scots, Irish, Welsh, were part of the English empire at the time. The French were not part of the colonies, especially at first they were "enemies" of the colonies and were actually pushed out such as the Acadians who were pushed to New Orleans, which is not one of the origional colonies. Regionalism which is found in the article addresses some of the local differences. When talking about any "cuisine" one must talk in broad strokes until you get to the local level where you can speak of the regional differences to which you are refering.--Chef Tanner (talk) 13:43, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I still feel that a section would be needed to discuss Maryland and Pennsylvanian cuisine before I can support - one would have a great deal to discuss about seafood (and pork, as Baltimore was known as "pig town" since its early years) and Pennsylvania had a large German and Dutch population (and there was a large Dutch population in New York). There are things like Scrapple are said to be "of the Delaware region" when they really came from Pennsylvania. Since this is based on colonies, I think you should put items into their colony of origin and deal with all of the colonies. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:03, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Question to Ottava Rima - Please do not take this the wrong way, but could you provide a reliable source supporting your assertion about scrapple being from PA? The actual article on scrapple has serious flaws in regards to its citations, most are questionably reliable at best. The sources provided in this article are very reliable texts on the subject written by notable authors in the field of historical cuisines. I understand this is a small thing but I want to understand you position on the matter. --Jeremy (blah blah) 19:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will look for reliable sources later. I am from the Mason Dixon border and have eaten scrapple my whole life and, like most people, have been subjected to the long, detailed history of the area and various things like that. This seems to be a decent source. Another. And another. Try here for more. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:07, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
From these sources, I don't see any reason to correct the article. It says that scrapple originated in the Delaware region, which is part of PA. Simply saying that it originates in PA would make the article less, not more, accurate. And it seems as if all the sources that are linked to directly refer to much more modern recent history of scrapple. I also don't really agree that the article is a history of the cuisine of individual states. It would result in equating political boundaries with cultural boundaries which is never a satisfactory solution. Peter Isotalo 11:02, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I take offense to that, being from the area. First of all, the area is DelMarVa, not the "Delaware Region" if you are going to call it anything. Delaware was originally part of Maryland. Secondly, Philadelphia is not part of the Delaware region, nor is the region between that and York, which is where Scrabble is said to come from. It is on this side of the hanna, not the other, so it would be Pennsylvania and only Pennsylvania. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend in any way. Is it only "Delaware region" that is the problem, though? I'm only asking because as far as I understand it "The Delaware Valley" focuses mostly on what is today western PA. Peter Isotalo 21:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The offense is not real. :P But yeah, the Delaware Valley is problematic. Why not just said Mid Atlantic, swap out some of the Quaker info for generic German (as the Quakers were the minority of the Germans) and then discuss some of the seafood dishes and the rest that the original colonists relied on, especially in the two bay regions. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:45, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If we're to swap out terms and state different facts we need alternative sources relevant to the time period. Are you thinking of any in specific ones?
Peter Isotalo 13:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just did a good search, and the first one that popped up was a source that you have currently - Oliver's book. For Maryland, here is this and this (that book would be harder to get). I seem to get quite a few hits when I type in "Colonial ___ food" (put the state in). Here is another source. Here is another and another. Good luck. I'm just pointing to the tip of the iceberg. Also, that book by Oliver has a lot more than what you have introduced into the article so far. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:01, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maryland and PA aren't excluded, as was the initial complaint, and it's been argued that a degree of generalization is always necessary. There's always more literature on just about any topic, and everthing doesn't need to be included. So what exactly is missing in terms of comprehensiveness?
Peter Isotalo 19:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question What's your source for "One of the icons of American culture, the apple pie, had its origin in East Anglian cooking traditions", which may be true but sounds extremely dubious (and is currently unsourced). East Anglia in this period was about 50% Fens and 50% rolling hills, and while Norfolk Biffins did grow there, there's no particular tradition of apple pie in the area (most traditional East Anglian recipes involve the ubiquitous mustard, lamb and turkeys, ). Not saying it's not true, but it certainly needs a source. – iridescent 23:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Everything on East Anglian tradition and the four regional cultures is based on Fischer and is footnoted as such. Peter Isotalo 07:39, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Fair enough; follow-up question – "As many New Englanders were originally from Great Britain, game hunting was a familiar beneficial skill when they immigrated to the New World" (again unsourced) seems a bit of a non sequitur. Why would being British have anything to do with game hunting? – iridescent 14:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Statement tweaked. That specific part is Christopher's so I can't vouch for it personally, but as far as I can tell, the sourcing is there since there's a footnote only three sentences down. Peter Isotalo 18:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Btw, the apple pie caption refers to the East Anglian tradition of oven baking, not pies with any specific ingredients. This connection is also explained in the text. Peter Isotalo 14:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, per Ottava Rima. The fact that Pennsylvania and especially Maryland, which is not mentioned at all outside of "In the mid-17th century a second wave of British immigrants began arriving in North America, settling mainly around Chesapeake Bay in Virginia and Maryland", are missing means that the article is not comprehensive enough. Therefore, the article does not meet all of the FA criteria, and I cannot support at this time. NW (Talk) 15:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • PA is mentioned both directly and indirectly (through the Delaware Valley). Maryland straddles the two regions mentioned here, so there doesn't seem to be any point in trying to establish some type of unique Maryland-specific cuisine. Neither state is "missing" other than in the sense of being explicitly mentioned by name. Peter Isotalo 14:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Agreed, remember that territorial borders in the colonies were not were they are now or even when the United States was formed. Many of the states today were regional areas settled around geographical regions such as the Hudson River Valley or the Delaware River Valley. The political differentiations that would become the eastern states came later. Also, areas that eventually became other eastern and mid-western states changed ownership over the course of the colonies' and United States evolution, two examples of this include the Massachusetts Bay Colony which originally encompassed the areas that became the states of Rhode Island, New Hampshire and Maine and claimed parts of what later became Michigan and Wisconsin while what once was the Colony of Virginia became Virginia, West Virgina, Tennessee and also claimed what became Ohio and Michigan, Indiana and what is now Western Pennsylvania. See the maps below to see what I mean--Jeremy (blah blah) 18:46, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I am keeping an eye on this discussion, but Ottava Rima's posts have me convinced, at least for the time being, that more could be added to this article. NW (Talk) 00:33, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Examples of colonial and state claims in English Colonial America
  • Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:06, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment A minor problem with the article is the clumsy use of the word "British". In most instances the word can and should be replaced with "English" (the exception being that it is fine to refer to the London-based monarchy and state as such after 1707). If you're gonna talk about Welsh, Irish, Scots-Irish and Scottish (Highland and Lowland), you ought to do so separately, as they are different peoples and were regarded as such at the time by both the English in England and the English in North America. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I switched to "British Isles" for the initial paragraph and used "English" instead of "British" for the Virginian settlers. The rest is best described as "British", though, since the Gaelic migration occured under British rule. There were many Gaelic speakers (according to Fischer even among some slaves), but English remained the dominant language. Peter Isotalo 19:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm Australian. I've just found this. I haven't got a clue what the Thirteen Clonies are, and my vocab doesn't stretch to "cuisine". OK! You have told me in the first sentence of the article where the cuisine of the Thirteen Colonies comes from, but you haven't told me what it is. I don't mean that you haven't given me a menu. I mean that you haven't told me what the article is about. Don't presume on my knowledge. You are writing an encyclopedia. Amandajm (talk) 03:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I found definitional issues in the first para as well ... New World linked at the end of the parapraph, after it was used much earlier. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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