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Hawaii hotspot

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I may just be beating my head against the wall here, but this article is at the top of my list of old projects I never finished, probably soured by my experience with three failed FACs. Alright. Round four. Need advice, and a whole lot of it. ResMar 01:46, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My goal here is to get the content all tidy whist avoiding a rewrite as much as possible. ResMar 04:22, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just skimming through the article, I'm most concerned about the problem raised in Talk:Hawaii_hotspot#Lack_of_focus - i.e. that there's too much generic Hawaiian volcanism info with no obvious relationship to the hotspot. The whole section on Hawaii_hotspot#Eruption_phenomena could usefully be dropped, I think, along with the ʻaʻā/pāhoehoe paragraph in the preceding Lava section. Alternatively, if these parts have an important connection with the topic (the hotspot) that I'm missing, they could be rewritten to explain the connection. Many of the images also seem off-topic, including both the infobox images. Other images seem misplaced, e.g. the one showing the Loa and Kea trends comes about four sections before this is mentioned in the text. --Avenue (talk) 13:38, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the offending content, anything else that looks specifically off-topic? ResMar 23:03, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A lot better now. I think gaps in coverage might now be a bigger problem than extraneous information. The new lead infobox image is good, showing the hotspot trail (although a tighter crop might be better), but the lower one (showing the bathymetry of the SE Hawaiian islands) still seems essentially off-topic, and its caption is terrible. I'll try to find a better place for it further down the page. --Avenue (talk) 20:36, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Come now, I just finished chopping things up and now it's too short? Fickle fickle! ResMar 22:04, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's gaps in the article's coverage, not its length, that bother me. There's a section on the swell, yes, but it doesn't cover the Hawaii's moat-arch structure. Landslides are mentioned briefly, and only in the context of Maui Nui. They are a much more widespread phenonemon than that, and I think they deserve more coverage here. Most importantly, there's no mention of the North and South Arch volcanic fields produced by the hotspot.[1][2][3]
The article seems poorly structured towards the end to me. The Characteristics section seems a bit unfocussed, and the Volcanoes section doesn't seem well integrated with the rest. I'd suggest renaming the latter something broader like "Volcanism and other effects", and moving some of the material from the Characteristics section into that.
The images aren't bad now, but I think the article still cries out for an illustration of the seismic tomography results. I've been searching, but I haven't seen a free picture of that yet. --Avenue (talk) 02:46, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Landslides I can look through this for, but I don't know what a moat-arch is, and looking at some abstracts from the literature on the north-south stuff, I dare say I hardly understand it. How open would you be to doing it yourself? ResMar 19:43, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll tackle a new para or two on them with Giant Hawaiian Underwater Landslides (Science vol. 264). The rest, well... ResMar 20:01, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Take this with a grain of salt:

  • The first paragraph in the lead needs to be rewritten for clarity, as it is clunky and difficult to understand for someone not familiar with the topic.
I'm rewriting the lead entirely right now. ResMar 20:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, partially rewrote lead, will finish the last para once I get Characteristics organized. ResMar 20:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The structure of the lead doesn't make sense. For example, the second paragraph should come first and the first paragraph should come second.
See above. ResMar 20:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does the article mention some of the problems with the theory? I would have to look at my notes, but I believe Clague & Dalrymple (1987) covered this topic. I see now that some of this is covered in the "Moving hotspot theory" section, but this is also important enough to touch upon in the lead.
Rewriting the lead, yeah it talks about how the theory isn't 100% accepted. ResMar 20:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm pretty unhappy with the lead section. Strangely, it appears to be written backwards. I would like you to pretend that you know nothing about the subject and try reading it with a "beginner's mind". You will then see what I mean.
Rewriting =) ResMar 20:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Citation 42 doesn't support the content. It appears that you meant to cite 43 instead. Please take a look.
  • Format of the references section is a complete mess. You need to choose a single format and make all the references adhere to it
Spent a half-hour doing some intensive reference maintenance, it won't be perfect but it's better now, no? I'm thinking of what to do with the books; I think I'll merge them in as best I can. ResMar 22:58, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I dislike the "Hotspot characteristics" section, as it doesn't seem very structured. This might work better as a table or in any format that presents the data to the reader in a logical way. That it has a "number of unique features" is expected and not exactly a surprise. Bottom line: it duplicates the second-level "Characteristics" section. In case you've forgotten, we read second-level headings starting with the title of the article, so it really reads "Hawaii hotspot#Characteristics", which is a duplicate.
I'm going to merge this into characteristics later. ResMar 20:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done. ResMar 21:38, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More later. Viriditas (talk) 11:45, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done. ResMar 05:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The bend is obvious, but I slapped on a reference for the "challenged" part. ResMar 22:37, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just finished a lot of work on it, could really use the comments guys! ResMar 16:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
=S ResMar 21:46, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Awickert

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Taking it from the top. Of course I won't mention the good things, of which there are clearly plenty. In a number of cases for simple things, I just edited the article myself. Awickert (talk) 08:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lede
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  • "caused by a shift in the direction of the Hawaiian hotspot" - I think that those authors claim that the hotspot moved in some way. So "shift in direction of motion" or some more elegant way of saying that would be more informative; as it stands, it could also seem like that the hotspot changed orientation in the mantle or something Awickert (talk) 08:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done. ResMar 18:49, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hotspot theory
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Made a few tweaks, but I think this section is very good:

  • "relatively rapid pace of about 4 centimeters (1.6 in) per year" - make a note of plate velocities here, to show what "relatively" means; will give the reader a better idea of the implications of a mobile hotspot Awickert (talk) 08:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done. ResMar 18:49, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Ocean Drilling Program (ODP)": name change to IODP in 2004; not crucial, but perhaps good to reflect this here if you can do so without interrupting the flow of the text Awickert (talk) 08:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done. ResMar 18:49, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 2003, these lava samples ... [end of section]": A lot of repetition here; I think that the story can be told: (1) Traditional example of changes in plate motion; (2) what if hotspots move? (3) go test; (4) findings. Awickert (talk) 08:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I've removed the stuff that basically goes "bend again". ResMar 18:52, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
History of Study
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Ancient Hawaiian
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Modern studies
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  • I removed "...the most detailed manuscript of its day..." as that is hard to prove and doesn't relate well to the source. Awickert (talk) 17:27, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decker et al.: you are citing the editors as the authors. You should cite it as a section / article in a book, (so title = article title, authors = article authors, IN <book>, edited by <Decker et al.>. There should be a template for that. Awickert (talk) 17:27, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno, it doesn't seem that bad. ResMar 20:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is wrong. You are citing it to the people who didn't write the article. I know what I am doing in this... which is why you ask for my help...? Awickert (talk) 08:50, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I've added Various authors to the citation. I'd try to do "blah (blah) in blah blah blah" but trying to load the PDF crashed my web browser. Twice. Um...ResMar 15:36, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That sucks! Maybe try to download and open outside browser? Memory management within browsers can be tricky. Awickert (talk) 23:04, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the second to last paragraph, the end-of-paragraph reference does not cover: In 1912 geologist Thomas Jaggar founded the Hawaiian Volcano Observatory. The facility was taken over in 1919 by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and in 1924 by the United States Geological Survey (USGS), which marked the start of continuous volcano observation on Hawaii island. The next century was a period of thorough investigation, marked by contributions from many top scientists. So this should be referenced. Awickert (talk) 17:27, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the appropriate reference and I think I'll go through it for some more info, actually. ResMar 15:49, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed it because that is a bit of a long claim. ResMar 20:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Characteristics
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Position
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  • "thin low-velocity zone extending downward": I had a bit of confusion because it looks thick from the distances you gave. But then I realized that you might mean thin in (theta, phi) while it was thick in (r); is this correct? Awickert (talk) 17:35, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think so. ResMar 20:29, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I added some more explanation. Awickert (talk) 08:44, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the actively flowing region of the melt zone is 220 ± 40 km (137 ± 25 mi) km at its base and 280 ± 40 km (174 ± 25 mi) at the upper mantle upwelling": I think you mean width (or diameter), but best to be clear (i.e. say that it is not radius or circumference or other things that have units of length), Awickert (talk) 17:35, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Added wide. ResMar 20:29, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Temperature
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  • "the magma chamber is located about 90–100 kilometers (56–62 mi) underground, which matches the estimated depth of the Cretaceous Period rock in the lithosphere": 90-100 km is super deep in the lithosphere. Usually Cretaceous rock (I am thinking sediments) are found in the top several km of lithosphere; I am thinking sediments because you word it "depth of the Cretaceous Period", which sort of implies a stratigraphy. Since this is oceanic crust, the situation is different, so an elaboration / explanation would be appreciated. Awickert (talk) 17:45, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Added oceanic. ResMar 20:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. ResMar 20:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The ranges aren't particularly important so I removed them. ResMar 20:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done. ResMar 20:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dynamic topography" is a tough thing to talk about, largely because it is not infrequently redefined by different scientists. Per the definition that you provide, it seems that heat would still be important, because this is what generates density contrasts in the mantle. If you can be more specific about this, it would be good. We can chat about it later as well. Awickert (talk) 17:45, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is ErgoSum's work; I don't understand it particularly well. ResMar 20:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, I will handle this portion before you take it to FAC. (In rewriting it you'll also figure out what I would have explained to you - faster all around). Poke me if I don't do it; I will be traveling this coming week. Awickert (talk) 08:58, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Movement
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  • "This conclusion is supported by magnetic studies, which suggest that these seamounts formed at higher latitudes than present-day Hawaii." If you can say in a few words how they do this, this sentence would be much more informative. (Wikilinking to paleomagnetism / paleolatitudes would help this paragraph in general). Awickert (talk) 04:45, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you mean; want me to explain the process? ResMar 20:47, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, or at least link to (I'm guessing) paleomagnetism or some such article. Awickert (talk) 08:51, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I've added an explanation but that part of the article really needs to be smoothed out. Heck, the whole thing needs to be smoothed out! ResMar 15:58, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Eruption frequency and scale
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Topography and geoid
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  • 2nd paragraph: I think you are talking about dynamic topography, which would be mantle-derived, i.e. option 1. This is my understanding of why hotspot swells form and how they evolve; a colleague here at Colorado works on that. We can chat about this and the other dynamic topography section; there is quite a bit of jargon to sift through. Awickert (talk) 04:59, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Magma
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  • "This leads to the modern day with the eruptions on...": I changed the sentence before this to say more directly that these were the Emperor Seamounts, but I don't know enough to change the sentence quoted here; could you make it more direct? I think it would be easier for the reader to see "Emperor, X years. Hawaii, Y years. Total = 85 Myr". Awickert (talk) 04:59, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed it around. ResMar 20:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a large upward variation": 'upward' in geology sometimes means time; are you talking space? If so, "vertical variability" might be better, or (if you know in which direction it varies and how) more specific info would be helpful. Awickert (talk) 04:59, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed it to vertical variability. ResMar 20:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what I did with that, I think I removed it yesterday. Doesn't sound right. ResMar 16:00, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "such as the andesitic magmas that produce spectacular and dangerous eruptions around Pacific Basin margins": I see why you have this, but it is awkward where it is at the end of the sentence. In fact, the sentences after this tie in closely with this phrase; consider placing a "magma viscosity and eruptive style" paragraph after a separate (though necessarily related) "magma composition" paragraph? Awickert (talk) 04:59, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I can't find anything in the source, actually. I've removed it. ResMar 20:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Volcanoes
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Volcanic characteristics
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  • "Sea levels were lower than today during ice ages.": we are still in the same ice age, and are you implying that it was larger because sea level fell? I think you are saying that it is larger because it hadn't eroded as much. Awickert (talk) 05:12, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I think I meant to say that sea levels were lower; I've changed it so. Is that incorrect? ResMar 21:02, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm; can't find this; you must have removed it. We are still in the ice age, but sea levels were lower during the last glacial period. Awickert (talk) 23:07, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Evolution and construction
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  • "The sea's pressure prevents explosive eruptions." Is this it, or is it the magma composition? (I don't actually know if the water keeps explosive eruptions from happening, but the magma viscosity must have something to do with the effusiveness.) Of course, if the source agrees with you, ... Awickert (talk) 05:26, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Magma composition is relatively stable, methinks; early products are usually pillow lava. ResMar 21:02, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I should have been more direct: the sea's pressure statement is uncited; is this true / supportable or not? Awickert (talk) 08:54, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Curious how that slipped out; it's in the introduction here. 16:06, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Fabulous! Awickert (talk) 23:08, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ruhrfisch comments

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This seems to have almost all the needed information (though I am no expert on the topic), but I think it could use some work before it would be ready for FAC. As requested, here are some suggestions for improvement.

  • The prose is good but not great. I know it is difficult to avoid repetition of certain words, but just in the first two sentences "hotspot" apprears four times. I can't think of a way to avoid three uses, but would switch to "it" for the fourth occurrence. I also have a suggestion on avoiding the four uses of the word volcano(es) in just the second sentence. So the current second sentence
One of the best-known and most studied hotspots in the world,[1][2] the Hawaii hotspot is responsible for the creation of the Hawaiian – Emperor seamount chain, a long chain of at least 129 volcanoes, more than 123 of which are extinct volcanoes, seamounts, and atolls, four active volcanoes and two dormant volcanoes. could instead perhaps be something like
One of the best-known and most studied hotspots,[1][2] it has created the Hawaiian – Emperor seamount chain, which is over 5,800 kilometres (3,600 mi) long and consists of four active volcanoes, two dormant volcanoes, and more than 123 extinct volcanoes, seamounts, and atolls. Note this avoids repeating chain, drops the use of volcanoes to three from four (and if "four active and two dormant volcanoes" were used would get it to two uses), adds the actual length (not just "long chain), and still is somewhat shorter than the original. The length could also go into the third sentence (about how the chain extends from Hawaii to the Kurile trench).
I've made the changes. ResMar 03:45, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also tried to tighten the prose - since criteria 1a is the most difficult for most articles to meet at FAC, a copyedit to do more such tightening might be in order.
Indeed, I'll try and find someone. ResMar 03:45, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Watch for needless repetition - the last sentence of the first paragraph of the lead and the first sentence of the second paragraph are both about how the hotspot is caused by a mantle plume in a tectonic plate far from its boundaries - could some of this repetition be avoided?
I've deleted a bit and merged the two. ResMar 03:45, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even removing one word can help ...created by a mantle plume located far from any nearby plate boundaries.
Done, I'll be sure to do a ce soon. ResMar 02:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the article is still pretty overlinked. See WP:OVERLINK. This takes two forms -
    • First, some words that the average reader knows are linked - such overlinks diminishes the value of the others. So again in the second sentence does the average reader really need a link to both the volcano article (which I am OK with) as well as links to both the Active volcano and Extinct volcano subsections of that same article? Or does the average reader really benefit from links to erosion and geology (all just in the lead)?
    • Second, some links are repeated way too often. My rule of thumb is to link once in the lead and once in the body, both on first occurrence. If it is an unusual term and it has been several sections, I think a second link in the body is OK (as are links in captions or tables). But doe we really need two links in the space of two senctences to the Macdonald hotspot (in Wilson's stationary hotspot theory)? This fits in with the theme oif avoiding unnecessary repetition too.
Removed a lot of links, how is it now? ResMar 00:41, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is also avoiding repetition, but try to make the headers follow WP:HEAD better. This says that wherever possible, headers should avoid repeating the name of the article, and subheaders should avoid repeating as much of their parent headers as possible. Sometimes an article just has to repeat certain words or phrases in its headers, but often it can be avoided. So for example the current "1. Hotspot theory 1.1 Wilson's stationary hotspot theory 1.2 Shallow hotspot theory 1.3 Moving hotspot theory" could perhaps just be "1. Theories 1.1 Wilson's stationary hotspot 1.2 Shallow hotspot 1.3 Moving hotspot"
  • Or "4. Volcanoes 4.1 Volcanic characteristics" could be "4. Volcanoes 4.1 Characteristics"
In the second case there is already a section labelled Characteristics, which is why I applied that title. ResMar 03:45, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've swapped around titles. ResMar 02:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having read the whole article, I think there is a little too much focus on Hawaiian volcanoes and not enough on the seamounts and other parts of the chain. Since this is an article on the hotspot that produced all of these, I would try to keep the focus on that as much as possible.
The trouble is that there's a depth of information on the former and a lack of it on the latter. ResMar 03:45, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I will work on expanding Modern studies to include more on seamounts. ResMar 02:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wonder if adding a short section on the history of the hotspot itself would help? This would be after the lead and would provide a good overview beyond the lead. I would start at the oldest known evidence (the oldest Emperor seamounts) and then go south and forward in time. The bend could be described without explanation (that comes in the theories that follow). The atolls and Hawaiian islands could be briefly mentioned, and the first paragraph could end with the most recent part, the Lohi seamount. I would have a second paragraph on or at least mention how the seamounts were found - information not currently in the article.
Found? Uh, satellite bathymetry mostly, with the obvious islands and atolls being, well, obvious. I disagree; I think such a section would overlap too much with characteristics. ResMar 03:45, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tweak According to Wilson's theory, the nearly 60° bend separating the Emperor and Hawaiian segments of the chain would have been [was] caused by a sudden shift in the movement of the Pacific Plate.
Done. ResMar 02:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This seems awkward / unclear In 2003, evidence for a mobile hotspot theory suggested that about 47 million years ago, the bend in the chain was caused by a shift in direction of motion. perhaps this owuld be better In 2003, new evidence led to a mobile hotspot theory, which suggested that about 47 million years ago the bend in the chain was caused by a shift in direction of the hotspot's motion.
Done. ResMar 00:41, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The bullet point list in Wilson's stationary hotspot theory may be better as straight prose
  • Perhaps a figure showing the earth's layers would help clarify the mantle plume discussion?
Done. ResMar 00:41, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I expected WIlson's theory section to have some sort of statement that it soon became widely accepted and remains the current theory, albeit with modifications (mobile hotspot anyone?)
  • Shallow hotspot theory is lacking several points mentioned in the Wilson's theory section. When was it first proposed? Who came up with it?
It's relatively unimportant in the long term; current evidence refutes it. That's why we've meant to tap on it, but not go in depth; that would be better placed on Hotspot (geology). ResMar 02:06, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reading more closely, it is also not clear when the mobile hotspot theory was first proposed and by whom
  • Probably needs a qualifier "Ancient Hawaiians believed that..." Pele was born to the female spirit Haumea, or Hina, who, like all Hawaiian gods and goddesses, descended from the supreme beings, Papa, or Earth Mother, and Wakea, or Sky Father.[25]:63[26]
  • Modern studies has nothing on any part of the hotspot outside the Hawaiian islands. There is nothing on the Emperero seamounts - when they were first detected or studied. There is also nothing on the atolls.
  • Passages like In 1890 he published the most detailed manuscript of its day, and remained the definitive guide to Hawaiian volcanism for decades. 1909 saw the publication of two large volumes which extensively quoted from earlier works now out of circulation.[32]:154-155 seem to me very tangential to this article - this is about the hotspot, which no one even knew existed at this time.
  • OK, I think I have pointed out enough things to change - I am no expert on the geology but it seems fine to me. Thinking of the FA criteria, comprehensiveness is required and as it is there is likely not enough on the seamounts etc outside of the current Hawaiian islands. These are mentioned in passing in several places, but some systematic discussions of them seem to me to be required. As noted above, I would add a brief history of the hotspot itself, which would allow the article to describe the Emperor - Hawaii chain at the start, and I would also add more to the "Modern studies" section on the studies outside of Hawaii itself.
  • Please make sure that the existing text includes no copyright violations, plagiarism, or close paraphrasing. For more information on this please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-04-13/Dispatches. (This is a general warning given in all peer reviews, in view of previous problems that have risen over copyvios.)

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:25, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I'm going to handle this in descending order as best I can. ResMar 15:38, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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