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November 18[edit]

Why does "arctos" mean bear?[edit]

Bear with me; "Bear taxon names such as Arctoidea and Helarctos come from the ancient Greek ἄρκτος (arktos), meaning bear, as do the names "arctic" and "antarctic", via the name of the constellation Ursa Major, the "Great Bear", prominent in the northern sky." - from [1]

OK...so why "arctic"? Means "towards the great bear"...why?

Why is that constellation called "Great Bear"? Bears aren't very Northern, are they? 86.24.168.231 (talk) 04:22, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ursa Major is called that ("great bear") because (if you connect the dots, so to speak) it resembles a bear,[2] and is greater (larger) than Ursa Minor ("little bear"). As the Wikipedia article shows, Ursa Major and Ursa Minor are useful for locating polaris (the North Star), which happens to be at the end of the "tail" of Ursa Minor. So, one might say: look for the bears to find north and you can get to the arctic. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 05:09, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for replying, but I still don't understand the etymology of "arctic". 86.24.168.231 (talk) 06:01, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Online Etymology Dictionary does a better job at explaining:[3] 136.56.52.157 (talk) 06:07, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you.

I understand that the Greek "arktikos" means North, and that the constellation that we call "The Great Bear" is North.

I do not understand why that is associated with bears. 86.24.168.231 (talk) 06:19, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you want to go to the arctic, you need to find north: look for the bears in the sky to find the north star. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 06:23, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"The name Arctic comes from the Greek word Arktos, which means bear."

Why? 86.24.168.231

ie my original question, "Why does "arctos" mean bear?" (talk) 06:33, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You asked previously why "arctic"? Means "towards the great bear" -- because it is. The arctic is north -- toward the direction indicated by the great bear in the sky. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 06:59, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"because it is" isn't really an answer, but sure, OK.

Not gonna argue.

I simply do not understand why it's called that, because...

Hear me out, OK?

I understand that there's a constellation called "The Great Bear". And it's North.

I understand that Latin "Ursa" means the Great Bear.

I understand that the Greek "arktikos" means bear.

I do not understand why.

What is the connection between "North" and "Bear"? 86.24.168.231 (talk) 08:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what else we can tell you than to repeat what was already said. The Ancient Greek word for "bear" was "arktos". They named the constellation that we call "the Big Dipper" "Arktos" because they thought it looked like a bear. It is mentioned in the Almagest as the "Arktos Megale" constellation. That constellation always lies in the northern sky. So the Greeks called that direction "towards the Bear", which is why we now call northern regions "Arctic", because the Greeks used the word to describe regions that lied in the direction of the constellation they called Arktos Megale. That's the origin of the use of "Arctic" to mean "Northern regions". The word "Arctic" isn't really related to the Ancient Greek word for "north". That word is "Βορέας", aka Boreas, one of the Anemoi, which were the ancient Greek personifications of the "north wind". The ancient greeks actually called the lands we refer to as "The Arctic", the Hyperborea, meaning roughly "extreme north", lit "Beyond Boreas (god of the North). But I get off track. The order of the etymology of artic = north is as follows: 1) Ancient Indo-Europeans had used a word of some sort with the *rkts construction to mean "bear". 2) Ancient Greeks used the word "Arktos" to mean bear, and named the constellation we call the Big Dipper "Arktos Megale", and 3) The modern word "Arctic" derives from the Ancient Greek meaning "In the direction of the Bear [constellation]" That's it. There's nothing more to "get". --Jayron 32 13:30, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Re. "Why does "arctos" mean bear?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.24.168.231 (talk) 08:50, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why does "bear" mean bear? That is a question that cannot be answered because the origins of these words are lost in the mist of time. Wiktionary gives a reconstructed proto-indoeuropean word but what prompted those proto-indoeuropeans to use just that word to denote the animals is something we will never know. What you can hope to get an answer to is the question why or how that word acquired the secondary meaning "North". You've cited yourself the connection to the constellations, which happen to be in the North. Also, from a Greek perspective, bears were certainly perceived as animals that roamed the northern wilderness. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:15, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Arctos" means bear, because for reasons unknown the proto-Indo-Europeans called it something like hrkos. "Bear" means bear, because some time later, people developed a taboo against calling bears by their true name, and so started using euphemisms like "the brown one" (bear, beorn, bruin), or "honey-eater" (medvéd).Iapetus (talk) 13:35, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The "bear" thing was obviously meant as a rhetorical question but thanks for answering it anyway. --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:43, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Etymonline has a description here for the source of the word "arctic" that includes a discussion of the origins of arctos = bear. --Jayron 32 12:48, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Stepwise:

The early Indo-Europeans encountered bears. It was useful for them to have term for these animals, so that one of them could warn another: “Beware, a bear.” They didn’t speak English yet, so they used another word. Linguists have reconstructed that word as having been h₂ŕ̥tḱos, possibly originally meaning something like "destroyer". One can only guess how it was pronounced. The Greek language developed out of Proto-Indo-European; the Ancient Greeks inherited the word for bear through many generations from the Proto-Indo-European word. In the process, the term mutated into ἄρκτος (árktos).
Looking up at the night sky, we see the same patterns of stars repeat every night, as if fixed on a globe rotating around the Earth. So did stargazers many centuries ago. Some patterns of stars positioned together (constellation literally means "a starring together") were given names, many of which stuck. We don't know when and where this started, but some ancient astronomers fancied that some of these constellations were in the shapes of animals and named them accordingly: Eagle, Ram, Giraffe, Crab, ... . Two constellations dance together around the celestial pole; they have a striking resemblance, one being like a smaller version of the other. The Ancient Greek astronomers saw a pair of bears, and called them "Bear" and "Little Bear" – in Greek. Together, they were "the Bears".
Even before the first Greeks entered Europe, astronomers must have realized that the celestial pole was always due North. By the time it was understood that the Earth had the shape of a globe, it became clear that there was a most Northern spot, one where the celestial pole was precisely overhead, in the zenith. Because the Bears, as celestial pole dancers, cavorted high up over the region around that spot, it was named the "Bearly region", "Bearly" in Ancient Greek being Ἀρκτικός (Arktikós).

--Lambiam 14:14, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all. Most interesting.

Apologies if I was not clear.

I was confused because, the article indicates that arctic means North because of the constellation, which is called a bear, because it's in the North... which is rather self-referential.

I understand a little more from your help, so thanks again.

86.24.168.231 (talk) 15:51, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

TLDR: The meaning "bear" is original, the meaning "north" secondary. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:06, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody has mentioned polar bears, found only in Arctic regions. Whether the Greeks were aware of such creatures is another matter. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:09, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They became only known to Europeans when Russians settled the coasts of the White Sea and the Barents Sea in the 17th century and reports on their encounters with these "white bears" reached Moscow. --Lambiam 08:36, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Lovely. Thanks. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 12:35, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"A great number of tales and legends across the globe associate Ursa Major with a bear."[4] See also Bulfinch's Mythology, Ch. IV: "Juno and Her Rivals", search for Callisto, [changed into a she-bear, hence Ursa Major (f.) not Ursus (m.)] and perhaps Robert Graves' The Greek Myths Vol I, para. 22 h [pdf 87]. In some accounts Arkos (Arcus), Callisto's son was changed into Ursa Minor rather than Boötes (our article says that the Greek name for Boötes was Arctophylax, which means "Bear Watcher") The ancients might have been making some long-forgotten connection via word-association or even punning since Callisto is said to have come from Arcadia. MinorProphet (talk) 20:22, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How did the Greeks think Ursa Major or Minor looked like a bear?[edit]

This might not be an answerable question, but I've always been puzzled by how anyone thought that these constellations were in any way bear-like. Most representations - like this or this - have to add on an implausibly long tail to make it work. Alansplodge (talk) 13:06, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly some Dionysan inspiration played a part... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:19, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Boredom + intoxication = constellations? --Jayron 32 15:53, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's probably it. Thanks. Alansplodge (talk) 10:58, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's probably not it. So-called "primitive" societies had a knack of surviving for countless thousands of years. We latter-day geniuses, who think we have all the answers yet have succeeded only in fucking up the world, are blind to anything that doesn't fit our self-constructed paradigm. These incredibly old stories contain truths, but not the kind we tend to think of. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:17, 23 November 2022 (UTC) [reply]

This page has a possible explanation for the long tail: Zeus fell in love with Callisto. Hera changed her into a bear out of jealousy. Her son Arcus (the namesake of Arcturus, the alternate name for the constellation Boötes) came upon her in the forest and she ran to greet him. Not knowing the bear was his mother, he was about to kill her. To save her, Zeus turned Arcus into a smaller bear, grabbed them both by their tails and flung them into the sky, causing their tails to be stretched.. It also says A number of Native American tribes also referred to this constellation as a bear, but with a clever addition. In their description of these stars, the bear is the same, but without the "tail". Instead, those three stars are three hopeful hunters, and the middle one is carrying a cooking pot for cooking up the bear. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 22:00, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would assume that the concept was picked up from Western/ European immigrants from the last centuries... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 03:38, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why would you assume that? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 18:59, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I could maybe believe that Native Americans thought that stars would produce pictures, but not that they would have the same constellations... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:01, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]