Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Mark Satin/archive3

Photo removed from "Assessment" section[edit]

This is the photo Kitfoxxe removed from the "Assessment" section last month. It relates to the end of the first paragraph in the "New World Alliance" sub-section and its associated Note #11, as well as to the middle of the second paragraph in the "Assessment" section. = Babel41 (talk) 00:42, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's responses to comments from previous FACs[edit]

[I'm moving this to talk page ... the responses from the nominator are new, but the questions are from previous FACs, and we generally put older material on the talk page. I'll leave pointers on the user talk pages of people whose questions are answered below. - Dank (push to talk) 00:08, 7 January 2012 (UTC)][reply]

NOVEMBER-DECEMBER COMMENTS, JANUARY RESPONSES:

[Dank comments] - I've copyedited this a couple of times. It's different, but all good biographies are different, and they're a welcome addition at FAC, I think. - Dank (push to talk) 14:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what "inductive" means in context. - Dank (push to talk) 20:48, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done: I meant that Satin's New Options Newsletter was based on theories in his previous book, but that his Radical Middle Newsletter was ad hoc and experimental. I think I make that point clearly now, and without the use of the $50 word "inductive." - Babel41 (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You have Satin referring to Americans alternately as "we" or "they"; try to standardize this. - Dank (push to talk) 21:23, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done: In homage to Satin's attachment to the communal "we," I have attempted to change all relevant "they's" to "we's" or "us's." Babel41 (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[End of Dank's comments.]

Noleander comments - I spent some time reading it, and I'm having a hard time finding any suggestions for improvement. Great article!

Sentence "He was not even against the draft, telling reporters he would support it for a defensive army ..." could be better. "Even" sounds too informal; and the sentence seems at odds with the rest of the article. Maybe a better wording would be "He was not entirely opposed to the draft, explaining that he would conditionally support it for ..."

Done: I ended up choosing a construction similar to yours: "He was not necessarily opposed to the draft. ..." Later in the article, I eliminated another inappropriate "even." - Babel41 (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

External links: the link for "New World Alliance and New Options Correspondence Files, 1977–1992" goes to a search page result. Better would be for the link to go the actual page (after clicking on the link in the search results).

Done: I agree! The problem here is that the URL to the actual Files page is over 100 characters long, and after a couple of weeks it stopped working on Wikipedia. (The search page has a shorter URL and leads with the Files link.) Anyway: I have restored the long Files link, and hopefully it will last now. I have also e-mailed the relevant person at the Contemporary Culture Collection at Temple University Libraries, and asked him to simplify the URL so we can link to it with confidence on Wikipedia. - Babel41 (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Great news. On 13 January, a nice man at the Contemporary Culture Collection at Temple U. provided us with an infinitely shorter URL, and I have now replaced the old one wih it. - Babel41 (talk) 21:50, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tense: The tense seems to shift back and forth between present and past. ... [A long discussion between Dank and Noleander has been edited out here. - Babel.]

Addressed: Satin is still alive (age 65 and going blind), but many of his projects - the Progranme, the Alliance, the newsletters - are no longer with us. I have gone through the article with a fine-tooth comb, making sure that Satin's books and ideas are consistently presented in the present tense, even though his terminated projects are necessarily discussed in the past tense. When books and projects are mentioned in the same sentence (just once, I believe), I use the past tense. - Babel41 (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

End of Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 15:14, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments [from Brian]: This looks an interesting and comprehensive article. I note that it has been through FAC before, and more recently underwent an extensive peer review. However, in reading through the first few sections I identified a number of issues which I think require further attention:

Lead

The lead's function is that of a broad outline summary of the main article, and at present I think there is too much detail, for example in the following extract: "Satin wrote the book New Age Politics, published by Dell in 1979. Despite what some see as its off-putting title, New Age Politics is widely recognized as the first, most ambitious, or most adequate attempt to construct an original political ideology out of the social movements of the post-Vietnam era. It identifies an emergent "third force" in North America pursuing such goals as simple living, decentralism, and global responsibility." For the purposes of the lead I would reduce this to: "Satin wrote New Age Politics, in which he identifies an emergent "third force" in North America, pursuing such goals as simple living, decentralism, and global responsibility." Likewise in the third paragraph, there is scope for summarisation.

Done: Because the subject of my bio has led such an unusual life, and is not a big media star, I thought it was important to establish, in the Introduction, that his books are from major publishers and his ideas are substantial. I see now that I was thinking like a journalist, not like an encyclopedist. I have shortened the second and third paragraphs by over 100 words, partly by adopting your language here. - Babel41 (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Early years

Beware POVish phrasing. e.g. "Satin appeared to be a model citizen" and "But another side surfaced..."

Done: Good catches, thanks. I eliminated these and caught another POVish phrase later in the article. - Babel41 (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We need a clearer picture of Satin's undergraduate career. He drops out of the University of Illinois, and is then told to leave Midwestern State University (how did he get to be there?), before we find him dropping out of State University of New York at Binghamton – again with no information as to how he came to be there. Apart from these frequent shifts, what was he supposedly studying at these places – surely that must be on record somewhere?

Addressed: I am afraid I misled you (and other viewers) by the way I began that paragraph. Satin's undergraduate career was undistinguished, and is noteworthy for only one thing: the way it foreshadowed the restlessness and rebelliousness that characterized his adult life. I now begin the paragraph by stating that his early life was characterized by restlessness and rebelliousness (with links to two good sources), and present his behavior at the three schools in that context. - Babel41 (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The third paragraph reads somewhat mawkishly. This is not appropriate material for an encyclopedia, though maybe for the Ladies' Home Journal

Done: Agreed. I do want to note the tension between Satin and his parents, though: it may help us understand what drove him (as Roger Neville Williams suggests in the "Legacy" section). It also helps make the "Later life" section more understandable. So I rewrote that paragraph to read much more soberly, and end it by citing sources showing that Satin's feelings were shared by many draft dodgers at that time. - Babel41 (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Toronto Anti-Draft Programme

"He added that he was "tired of" talking to the press". I don't know what this adds to the article, or why "tired of" requires quotes

Addressed: The phrase "tired of" is so common that it does not need quotes, and I removed them as you suggested. (But I did leave that passage in there, because it provides good evidence for the point I make two paragraphs down: one of the ways Satin broke with the Programme's culture was by courting the press, rather than treating it with indifference or disdain.) I went on to eliminate quote marks from other words and phrases elsewhere in the article. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"valorizing"? Is there a verb "to valorize"? (If there is, there shouldn't be). ... Correcting myself! There is a verb "to valorize", but it means something completely different: "to fix and maintain an artificial price for a commodity by government action". So the word needs changing here.

Done: Google's first definition of "valorizing" is giving or ascribing value to something. Merriam-Webster's second def. of "valorize" is to assign value or merit to something. Both definitions are consistent with the way I used the word, and the way it's commonly used in academic discourse at least in my part of the woods. But your larger point is well taken: why use a $50 word where a simpler word will do? So I changed valorizing to "praising," and I simplified other words over the course of the article. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Instead of emphasizing the difficulties of emigration, Satin emphasized..." Repetition

Done: I have a weakness for parallel constructions, which Wikipedia calls parallelisms - repetitive verbal constructions that allow for quick and easy comparisons between thoughts or behaviors. They are not uncommon in academic writing. I appreciate your point that they are not welcome on Wikipedia, and I have eliminated them not only here but elsewhere in the article, including one in the "Radical Middle, the book" sub-section that went on for two paragraphs! - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Consecutive sentences beginning "Instead of..."

Done: That is more parallelism, and it is gone now (see my response immediately above). - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Over-complex sentences, e.g.: "Instead of refusing to "baby sit" Americans after they arrived, Satin made post-emigration assistance a top priority – the office soon sported comfortable furniture, a hot plate, and free food,[25] and within a few months, 200 Torontonians had opened their homes to war resisters and a job-finding service had been established". Apart from two "ands", the construction is made awkward by the use of the ndash in mid-sentence.

Done: I eliminated the n-dash and divided that sentence into two (and added a semicolon to the second sentence). Following your lead here, I divided other long sentences over the course of the article. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the phrasing is overelaborate, e.g. "exuding indifference"

Done: To me, "exude" is just good English. David Brooks used the word twice last Saturday, on NPR. But thanks to you (and Nikkimaria, and Jim), I see now that Wikipedia's house style is to use the plainest and clearest words possible (short of oversimplification). Therefore, I have replaced "exuding" with "expressing," and I have replaced most of my other favorite words in the Satin article. (Getting rid of "a plethora of" was the hardest for me.) And I must confess, the writing now draws less attention to itself. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"He was 21 years old" at the end of the subsection looks gratuitous; what purpose is this information serving?

Done: The purpose of that brief sentence was (a) to remind the reader that, despite the enormity of the events discussed, Satin was just a kid; and (b) to provide a marker signaling the end of the first (radical) phase of Satin's political life, just as a similar sentence at the end of the "Ten Key Values" sub-section - "He was 45 years old" - provided a marker signaling the end of the second (New Age) phase of his political life. However, since this does not appear to work for you, I assume it will not work for many other readers. So I have eliminated both sentences. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Manual for Draft-Age Immigrants to Canada

There is a tendency towards the overuse of quotation marks, especially for unremarkable terms like "useful", "detailed advice", "warm welcome", "ecourage" etc. These words or terms aren't worth putting in quotes, which should be reserved for rather more striking comments.

Done: Agreed. I have eliminated the quote marks from all those words, with the esception of "useful." (When America's leading book review called Satin's draft dodger manual "useful" in 1968, at the height of the Vietnam War, it was an act of courage or extreme foolhardiness, depending on your POV; the word needs to be quoted to be believed). As explained above, I have eliminated quote marks from many other words throughout the article. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"re-envision"? Is that the word used in the source? If so, I think that is a case for using a direct quote, not just of this rather dubious word but of the context in which the source uses it.

Done: The source, an academic named David Churchill, uses an even more dubious word, "prefigured." I did quote him originally, but paraphrased the quote after my first FAC review, when Wiki editors told me I was using too many lengthy quotes. I have revised my paraphrase in response to your comment, eliminating "re-envision" and using the admirably simple phrase "came to see," and I think the paraphrase now gets Churchill's meaning across more deftly than a quote from him would do (plus Churchill's article is now online, and I link to it on first mention). - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What is "House of Anansi"? Publishers?

Done: Exactly, they are the publishers of Satin's Manual. Anansi's entire name ("House of Anansi Press") is mentioned at the beginning of the "Manual" sub-section. But to make sure that the reader remembers, I do two new things now: (a) I reproduce the entire name in the middle of the paragraph you reference, in a context that makes it clear who they are, and (b) instead of referring to "House of Anansi" at the end of that paragraph, I refer to "House of Anansi Press." Thus the paragraph is less streamlined, but totally clear. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That is all I have time for at present. I will try to add comments on the rest, but it looks to me as though a little more work is necessary before this article is ready for promotion. Brianboulton (talk) 23:32, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jim You've put a good deal of work into this, but I feel there are still some issues with the text — I know nothing about the content. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:15, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree [with Brian] that the lead is too detailed, book publishers, synopses etc

Done: I condensed the Introduction by over 100 words - no book publishers, no superlatives, no awards, brief mentions of political-intellectual directions rather than synopses. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In high school, Satin appeared to be a model citizen – for example, he wrote a regular column on teenage affairs for the Moorhead newspaper.[9] But another side surfaced within months of his leaving for university.[22] — It's not my experience that people who write to newspapers are "model citizens"; quite the opposite often. The whole of the quoted section feels a bit popular biography rather than encyclopaedic

Done: Good points. The section now acknowledges Satin's early restlessness and rebelliousness, and it does away with the drama at the end, replacing family pyrotechnics with the simple fact of the chasm between Satin and his parents (and evidence that such chasms were common between draft dodgers and their families). These points are important for understanding the "Later life" section, and the paragraph on the roots of Satin's rebelliousness in the "Legacy" section. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

for refusing to sign a loyalty oath to the United States Constitution. — As a Brit, I'd welcome a link or explanation here. Is this a federal requirement, Texas, only or a maverick university? Do non-Americans take the oath too?

Done: This is a fascinating and almost forgotten topic. I created a brief Note on it, with links to the relevant pages in two reputable books. (During the McCarthy era, and until the late Sixties in places like Texas, students and profs at some state universities did have to take loyalty oaths.) Because of your questions here, I realized there were other tangential points of interest my article may have raised, and I created a number of other Notes in an effort to address them. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

trimester — which means?

Done: College terms in the U.S. are semesters, trimesters, or quarters. In order to avoid this distracting explanation, I simply say "term" now. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The night Satin arrived in Canada, he struggled to hold back tears — More Mills & Boon than encyclopaedia

Done: Agreed. As I explain above (and to Brian, further above), I got rid of the melodrama here, while retaining the basic fact of the tension between Satin and his family, which may have affected his political and life choices. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

valorizing — My dictionary says it's to do with stabilizing prices, ao I can't see what it means here. In any case, such an obscure word is best avoided

Done: Well, my dictionary defines "valorizing" exactly as I used it in the article (see my note about this word to Brian above). But I totally agree with your main point, that I should avoid obscure or difficult or pretentious words. So I removed "valorizing" and other such words throughout the text. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Throughout the article instead of is overused

Done: This is generally when I am engaging in parallel constructions, or parallelisms, which I find felicitous in academic writing but which I (now, finally, do) understand is not appropriate for our encyclopedia. I have eliminated the vast majority of the "instead ofs" throughout the text. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Androgynous — needs link

Done: Before my first FAC review I was apparently overlinking (I had U.S. high school student readers in mind); now I may err on the side of underlinking. I've worked hard to get the balance right. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Biblical Christians — I thought all Christians were biblical? If this means fundamentalist or literalist, perhaps a gloss or link, similarly if it's a campaigning group

Done: In the U.S., "Biblical" is now the preferred term among many fundamentalist and evangelical Christians; many of them feel that those other terms have become terms of opprobrium or at least mild condescension. However, as you point out, "Biblical" has its own problems. So I have replaced "Biblical Christians" with "conservative Christians." That seems to me to be precise enough, and it has the advantage of being a parallel description to that of the group they're coupled with in the sentence, "left-wing intellectuals." - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Among Biblical Christians... I struggled with the whole of the para, particularly as the unlinked authors aren't given a nationality. Are we just talking about adverse views in the US? If so, that should be made clear.

Done: I have now specified, in the sentence immediately preceding that paragraph, that all these critics are within the U.S. The are all significant, even those that are unlinked: Cumbey's book was a bestseller, Rhodes's and Groothuis's books were brought out by major Christian publishing houses, Cummings and Hess are professors with well-received later books under their belts, and Dana Cloud has long been a target of the far right, in part because of her interest in radical thinkers and ideologies. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Was there no criticism from eg Sweden or Germany — it doesn't sound like the sort of book to be accepted uncritically in any country.

Addressed: I have created several new Notes to convey what I know about Satin and Europe. The only substantial critique of Satin's writing I've seen from a Euro-left perspective actually comes from an American, the aforementioned Dana Cloud, who is steeped in European Marxist and neo-Marxist thinking. She has written two essays putting Satin's ideas up against the writing of non-North American post-Marxists, and I cite them in my Notes. Other Notes convey more neutral material. One points to mainstream Swedish interest in Satin's and other New Agers' ideas. Another tells of German and Austrian contributors to the German edition of New Age Politics. Another links readers to the very best bibliography I've seen combining New Age political writings from Europe and North America, including Satin's. (It is in a master's thesis from 2008 from Aarhus University in Denmark. I know Wikipedia generally does not favor citations to M.A. theses, but I hope I can get around that by citing only to the bibliography - it is that good.) Also in that Note, I cite the criticism of Europe's arguably most prominent political thinker, Slavoj Zizek, who takes New Age ideology seriously (unlike many radical activists) but focuses, as he often does, not on ideologists like Satin but on popular works like The Celestine Prophesy. Zizek's criticisms are not dissimilar to Dana Cloud's. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

woundedness — not in my dictionary, best to avoid neologisms or obscure words

Done: I love the expressiveness of that word, but it's gone now (along with hopefully all other such words; see above). The passage does read better as a result. - Babel41 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[End of Jim's comments.] - Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:15, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Outdated comments that were removed from the FAC page[edit]

[The aim was to clean up the FAC page for later viewers.]

Hopefully helpful note on access to sources: A large number of passages from the books I cite (more than half, I believe) are now or were recently searchable at Google Books. Also, I recently discovered that the Toronto Star has made all its back issues from 1894 through 2008 available via Pages of the Past. You can search them there for $3.95 / hour, and one hour is long enough to peruse or download all the Satin-related articles I cite. - Babel41 (talk) 22:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note on "External links" from principal author of article: Just wanted to inform you that, over the last 36 hours, I have added three new links to my "External links" section (Declaration, Vasconcellos, and Pocock, respectively) and have divided the now 10 links into three sub-sections paralleling the three major divisions of the article (radical centrism, New Age politics, neopacifism). I think these additions are non-controversial and helpful, and I will not make any more significant changes to the article except for those you suggest to me here. - Babel41 (talk) 07:25, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

[End of removed material. - Babel41 (talk) 01:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC)][reply]