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First Nations/US federally recognized tribes

Since this has been discussed on this page before, I thought this had long been settled, but apparently Edwardx disagrees. Citizens of Canadian First Nations and US federally recognized tribes are dual citizens, typically of Canada and the United States respectively (but not always). The US entered into treaties with tribes as foreign governments. In Worchester v. Georgia (1832) established Native American tribes as so-called "domestic dependent nations", which acknowledges their sovereignty that predates the establishment of the United States. Tribes have negotiated government-to-government relationships with the United States in the era of self-determination.[1]. Many people, including Wikipedia editors, mistakenly believe US federally recognized tribes are ethnic groups;[2] however, they are political entities. For example, the single tribe, Confederated Tribes of Siletz Indians, includes 27 different ethnic groups, while conversely the Pomo people are a single ethnic group, split across 21 different federally recognized tribes. As a citizen of a tribe and of the United States, I have treaty rights not accessible by non-tribal citizens and I have to abide by the laws of my tribal government and can seek redress in my tribal court system. Citizenship to both nation-state and a Native American tribe cannot quickly be inferred from place of birth. Yuchitown (talk) 01:31, 13 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Can you give an example as we have parameters for this..... we have nationality parameters citizenship parameters place of birth parameters. Is there an ongoing conflict or just something of note ? Moxy- 01:58, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I just tried to clarify that these are typically listed under "nationality," but that was reverted, so I'm taking it to the talk page. I did have a typo, though. Yuchitown (talk) 02:09, 13 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

How things are normally dealt with can be seen in our featured articles of related content ....like Jim Thorpe or Simonie Michael. We should be specific...linking generic terms like Native American or First Nations in the lead doesn't help anyone understand anything except for their indigenous. "name" is a Canadian of Naskapi descent who was the first too.... blah blah blah.... that being said is there indigenous status why they are famous? Moxy- 02:26, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that "Native American" and "First Nation" shouldn't be in the infobox under nationality, and when I see those, I change them to the specific nation the individual is a citizen of. The way I and other members of WP:WP IPNA list nationalities can be found at Rebecca Belmore, Charles Curtis, etc. It's short and simple but quickly conveys maximum information. The citations are found in the prose, but if necessary I can begin adding citations to the "nationality" listing in the infobox as well. Yuchitown (talk) 17:40, 13 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Unless relevant to notability, Native American should not be in the first sentence of a BLP per MOS:CONTEXTBIO. I'm opposed to having "Muscogee (Creek) Nation" as a nationality[3]/citizenship in the infobox. From what I'm reading, this citizenship thing is only recognised domestically (Canada too? Same thing to me). So chaps can't come to jolly ol' England on a Muscogee passport, they'll be using their universally recognised US passport. For me, this would be like having "Cornish, British" in the infobox. – ².O.^Boxing 10:23, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Being an enrolled citizen of a tribal nation is not an ethnicity; it's a unique political status. I tried to explain that above with Siletz and Pomo, but another example to try to illustrate: A Maya person born in Guatemala living in Texas and a tribal citizen of Thlopthlocco Tribal Town living in Texas are both American Indian and closely related, ethnically and genetically, but they have completely different political statuses. Yes, members of tribes are usually dual (or threefold) citizens, but I know Muscogee (Creek) Nation citizens living in the United Kingdom. They still have rights through their enrollment and have to follow the laws of the tribal nation. Their Native national identity doesn't fall off the second they travel internationally. It does get confusing quickly, but Indigenous nations have international rights under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Citizens of First Nations have rights to freely cross the US–Canadian border and work in either country under the Jay Treaty. I'm writing about US federally recognized tribes because that is what I'm most familiar with, but Indigenous peoples of Panama also have strong political autonomy and their own lands, comarcas.

As far a relevance, being a citizen of a tribal nation is central to one's identity. It is not the same as being "Cornish, British." The Muscogee (Creek) Nation has a government-to-government relationship with the United States. It has its own constitution and its own court system. Under McGirt v. Oklahoma the rights of specifically the Muscogee (Creek) Nation and their reservation boundaries were reaffirmed. Yuchitown (talk) 17:56, 13 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

The article on Indigenous peoples of the Americas says Native American is an ethnicity. To have a BLP say X is a Native American tiddlywinks world champion, the ethnicity would have to be relevant to their notability, not identity.

The way you and others at WP:IPNA are editing is simply wrong. Rebecca Belmore should be listed as Canadian; Lac Seul First Nation is not a nationality and it shouldn't be in the citizenship parameter per Template:Infobox person, Country of legal citizenship, if different from nationality (she should also be described as Canadian in the lead per MOS:CONTEXTBIO). Same with Charles Curtis; Kaw Nation is not a nationality. I don't think the tribal citizenships should be mentioned in the lead at all unless it's somehow relevant to the person's notability (as can be argued for Charles Curtis), but that would be a different discussion. – ².O.^Boxing 21:28, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I was talking about Native American identity and First Nations identity, which are not the same as Indigenous peoples of the Americas, a much broader, vaguer term (that article doesn't state anywhere that "Native American is an ethnicity." I provided examples and links that those two are specific political identities. Yes, absolutely Lac Seul First Nation and Kaw Nation are nationalities. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is an insufficient argument. Yuchitown (talk) 02:43, 14 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

X is a Native American bobsleigh King would be in reference to ethnicity, not nationality. If you want to say it's not ethnicity, but "identity", then fine. But it's still not a nationality and should not be in the first sentence per CONTEXTBIO. From the first sentence of Nationality, Nationality is a legal identification of a person in international law, establishing the person as a subject, a national, of a sovereign state. These tribal citizenships do not have recognition in international law and the tribes (regardless of the fact they have the word "nation" in their name), are not nations or sovereign states, by any stretch of the imagination. This has nothing to do with not liking something, but everything to do with following well-established guidelines instead of a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. – ².O.^Boxing 11:09, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

You are being very loose with terminology and proposed policy. This is an infobox talk page. I'm proposing spelling our the WP:IPNA practice of listing one's specific tribal nation and one's nation-state in the "nationality" section of a person's infobox, not a discussion of opening lede senteces. So not "Native American" (which is not an ethnicity; it's a political status as I've cited above that includes innumerable diverse ethnicities and mixed ethnicities, including freedmen for some tribes and, in rare, instances, such as Gov. Kevin Stitt, people of 100 percent European-American ancestry). Instead, for example, it would be listing Kaw Nation and "American" for Charles Curtis. Yes, as I've established with links above, US federally recognized tribes and Canadian First Nations absolutely do have sovereignty and are recognized by international law. I am part of establishing the WP:LOCALCONSENSUS and am basing my proposal on cited facts about US federally recognized tribes and Canadian First Nations. Yuchitown (talk) 14:55, 14 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

The lead issue was raised, I was just commenting as it was part of the edit I reverted. My terminology probably is off in regards to ethnicity, and it's piqued my interest so think I'll read up on it.

When reading Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, the "Purpose" section says, This declaration is a resolution, meaning it is not a law-bearing document. Indigenous peoples are not considered political nation-states and do not have access to international law protection through the international court of justice. So that would mean the nation state is still US under international law, and by extension, their nationality/citizenship is American. To me, including tribal citizenship implies it has the same recognition in an internationally-recognised legal sense, that being, a subject, a national, of a sovereign state (country). I think the current wording of INFONAT accurately reflects the general understanding of nationality/citizenship, the country to which the subject belongs. – ².O.^Boxing 18:46, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Again, "Native Americans" and "Indigenous peoples" are different legal concepts, but the current wording on MOS:INFONAT already covers what I was trying to purpose, "When needed (e.g. due to change of nationality after birth, dual 'citizenship', or other unusual scenarios), use |nationality= unless |citizenship= is more appropriate for uncommon legal reasons." A person can change their citizenship from Canadian or American to another country but retain their citizenship to their tribal nation. I do know one family that is split between Jordanian and American citizens but they are enrolled in the Osage Nation. Yuchitown (talk) 20:42, 14 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Following up, Merriam-Webster defines "nation" as:

a(1): NATIONALITY sense 5a

(2): a politically organized nationality

(3) in the Bible : a non-Jewish nationality

b: a community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and government

c: a territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and usually characterized by relatively large size and independent status

2 archaic : GROUP, AGGREGATION

3: a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians).

So, it would be nice to spell out protocols for dual citizens of Native American tribes, but existing terminology already covers the appropriate protocol (list both in "nationality" parameter). Yuchitown (talk) 21:16, 14 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

It isn't covered by the current wording. What you quoted from INFONAT is on the understanding that nationality/citizenship relates to countries, not tribal lands in the US and their domestically-recognised dual-citizenship rights. You said, Their Native national identity doesn't fall off the second they travel internationally. It does get confusing quickly, but Indigenous nations have international rights under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. According to that article, when travelling internationally their tribal citizenship--legally recognised in the US and Canada--is not recognised under international law. You mentioned somebody in England with Muscogee Nation citizenship; they're not recognised as a Muscogee and British citizen outside of the US and Canada, they're recognised as American and British (assuming they have US citizenship, if not, just British). Same as the Jordanian and American family. The tribal citizenship does not have the same meaning or legal standing, and shouldn't be placed along with or instead of US nationality/citizenship. – ².O.^Boxing 22:44, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Much of the discussion above is trying to work from first principles. Instead, we can look at what reliable sources do. When reliable sources talk about people's nationality, what do they say? Pick someone who is a member of, say, the Muscogee (Creek) Nation: do WP:RS routinely describe that person's nationality as American/US or as Muscogee or as both? We should follow what RS do. Bondegezou (talk) 10:53, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think how RS describe somebody matters here. The infobox parameters are for the country to which the subject belongs/Country of legal citizenship, which I think I'm safe to assume reflects the general understanding (if not the literal definition) of nationality and citizenship. – ².O.^Boxing 12:10, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

How RS describe something always matters. It's by looking at RS that we determine what the general understanding is. Do RS understand these terms — the country to which the subject belongs/Country of legal citizenship — to cover recognised tribes or not? Bondegezou (talk) 12:19, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I provided relevant external links and wikilnks above, but they don't matter if an editor refuses to read them. MOS:INFONAT says, "When needed (e.g. due to change of nationality after birth, dual 'citizenship', or other unusual scenarios), use |nationality= unless |citizenship= is more appropriate for uncommon legal reasons." The MOS doesn't say anything about "countries" or anything about "passports." I'm a tribal member; I've successfully used my tribal ID to return to the US from another country when I didn't have a passport on me. OP is now repeating themself. Thank you for joining this conversation. Hopefully, others can join and share their perspective. But current language covers dual citizens, and I've found one person who was a threefold citizen. Yuchitown (talk) 15:02, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Thank you for sharing your own experience, which is interesting. You haven't, as far as I can see, provided examples of reliable sources referring to individual's nationality in the manner you propose Wikipedia do. I think that's what would be persuasive. Arguments from first principles are not. Bondegezou (talk) 17:14, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Have you looked through all the links I already provided? I provided one more below for the "unique Nation-to-Nation relationship" the US government has with tribal nations. The current MOS:INFONAT "nation" and "citizenship" which absolutely apply to US federally tribes, as cited. It doesn't list caveats of being a country or issuing passports, etc. Yuchitown (talk) 17:30, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

INFONAT doesn't list any caveats because immediately before the part you quote, it literally says it relates to countries, use of either should be avoided when the country to which the subject belongs can be inferred from the country of birth (bolding mine). – ².O.^Boxing 19:46, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

General understanding was a daft phrase to use. I should have just stuck with 'as defined by international law'. We don't need to gather RS to determine what nationality means (we already know), they're only needed to determine what somebody's nationality is. If RS are explicitly referring to a person's nationality as Muscogee Nation (X is a Muscogee Nation surfer wouldn't suffice), then they're wrong by the internationally accepted definition. Here comes another Cornish comparison; RS routinely describing somebody as Cornish (as they so often do, even in non-British sources) doesn't mean we put Cornish as their nationality or citizenship, because it's not. It's still British or English. – ².O.^Boxing 14:04, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

We should not be trying to interpret international law: that's WP:OR. We should go with what reliable sources do. Yes, you are right, this means we need RS (routinely and frequently) describing someone's nationality as Cornish or Muscogee, not just describing someone as Cornish or Muscogee. I don't see that at present, but that's the standard of proof I expect to be applied. Bondegezou (talk) 17:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

As you can find in all the links and examples I posted at the beginning of this section, Cornish identity and being an enrolled citizen of the Muscogee (Creek) Nation are not the same. I know more about the US than Canada, but in the US, federally recognized tribes are a completely unique political status as domestic dependent nations, who have signed treaties with the United Stats as nations and have nation-to-nation relationships with the US federal government. Yuchitown (talk) 17:26, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Nationality tells us the definition under international law. If we were to get into semantics about what a "state" is, then that is also defined under international law,[4] which clearly doesn't apply to federally recognised tribal lands. – ².O.^Boxing 19:41, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

If Ireland and other's accept Native American passports [5], if Native Nation treaty with other governments, how do they not have nation status? Indigenous girl (talk) 07:02, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't find that very convincing at all. If it wasn't a sports team being invited by officials for a specific reason, then you know as well as I do they would be denied entry. I found the article Iroquois passport, which says the passport is not recognised in Europe. The European Council actually calls them "fantasy passports". – ².O.^Boxing 12:45, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Canada does not have the same sovereignty recognition as the United States does for indigenous people."Sovereignty". The Canadian Encyclopedia. 2014-06-26. Retrieved 2023-03-18. In the United States, Native American (or "Indian") tribes are seen as "domestic, dependent, sovereign nations." They have the inherent right to govern within their reservations. They can make laws, establish courts and enjoy immunity from external lawsuits. This doctrine of domestic sovereignty has never been applied to Indigenous peoples in Canada. That said tribal nationality is not internationally recognized anywhere.... that's why no passports. Moxy- 14:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Just because Canada doesn't have the same designation of "domestic dependent nations" (original term) as the United States doesn't mean that First Nations aren't nations. "This is recognized by the Canadian government as well, meaning that both Canada and Indigenous Peoples maintain their own sovereign states. Sovereign states indicate that they are two separate governing states residing on the same land" (Karim). Canada negotiated treaties with First Nations. A treaty by definition is "a formally signed and ratified agreement between two or more nations or sovereigns" (Cornel Law School).

I was hoping more editors would contribute to this conversation, but it's mostly been Squared.Circle.Boxing who doesn't contribute to Indigenous articles. As stated before, the current MOS:INFONAT wording allows for US federally recognized tribes and Canadian First Nations to be listed in the "nationality" parameter under: " "When needed (e.g. due to change of nationality after birth, dual 'citizenship', or other unusual scenarios), use |nationality= unless |citizenship= is more appropriate for uncommon legal reasons." MOS:INFONAT mentions "country," only to say "use of either should be avoided when the country to which the subject belongs can be inferred from the country of birth." It is indeed difficult to infer tribal citizenship simply by county of birth.

Tribal nations fit the dictionary definition of "nation." It doesn't matter whether or not tribal nations fit the unwritten definition of "nation" by a particular user. I'm moving on. Current text is fine. Yuchitown (talk) 21:46, 18 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

If the parameters should be avoided when the country to which the subject belongs can be inferred from the country of birth, then the implication is that the parameters should be used when the country to which the subject belongs cannot be inferred from the country of birth. Instructions for the citizenship parameter at Template:Infobox person specifically say Country of legal citizenship, if different from nationality. The current text is fine, and it doesn't support your position. And it's not my definition of the word nation, it's the Declarative theory of statehood's definition. – ².O.^Boxing 04:17, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

I know I need to give up beating this dead horse, but you are quoting "citizenship" perimeter. The infobox person "nationality" perimeter (the one I've been discussing this entire time) states: "May be used instead of |citizenship= (below) or vice versa in cases where any confusion could result. Should only be used with |citizenship= when they differ per WP:INFONAT. Do not put religion or ethnicity in this field. (See |birth_place=, above, for instructions on how to use this parameter, including: no flag templates, inappropriate linking, anachronisms, "country" definitions, etc.)." And as stated in my first entry on this discussion, US federally recognized tribes and Canadian First Natons are not ethnicities. The term is "nationality," which I've provided amble references (as opposed to just linking Wikipedia pages) addresses tribal nations; however, the wikilink you provided, states: "1) a defined territory; 2) a permanent population; 3) a government and 4) a capacity to enter into relations with other states." Those all apply to US federally recognized tribes and Canadian First Nations. Okay, moving on for real this time. Yuchitown (talk) 15:29, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I'm also quoting INFONAT, which the instructions for the nationality parameter also quote. Your understanding of the definition of soverign state/nation/country is tainted by your personal views on the subject. Any infoboxes with tribal nations listed as a citizenship or nationality are against guidelines and should be removed. – ².O.^Boxing 16:55, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Just wanted to say Yuchitown is probably right here and tribal governments in the United States meet the declarative theory of statehood. Also, as far as US law is concerned, tribal citizens are dual citizens. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 06:23, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps we should remind ourselves of MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE: "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose". Edwardx (talk) 17:12, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Age of person in an infobox

Please see Template talk:Infobox person#Template:Age for a proposal regarding {{age}} whereby, when a date is unknown, it would change from showing a single number to a range of ages. Johnuniq (talk) 03:53, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Relist Template talk:Infobox military conflict#RfC on "supported by" being used with the belligerent parameter

Relisted for further input. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)