Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Greater Manchester/Archive 10

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Archtransit

I would like to bring the project's attention to this ANI thread regarding the conduct of Archtransit, one of our members. I'm sure some of you will have interacted with him before, so I think your opinion would be appreciated. Regards, Rudget. 18:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I already expresed my opinion at his RfC. It's an absolute bloody disgrace that he wasn't desysopped some time ago. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

And I'll frankly tell you what else is a bloody disgrace. You, as another new administrator, drawing attention to Archtransit's misdemeanours for no obvious purpose, other than perhaps to divert attention from your own mishaps. Kind of sad. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 04:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

What are we doing wrong?

Obviously not too much, I was just trying to attract attention. :-)

We've now got 16 FA/FLs, but only 10 GAs. I'm hoping to get Trafford Park up to GA in the not too distant future, but I'm wondering if we have any other articles that might be close to GA with just a little bit more input? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 02:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know any that are very close, but I think there are some that could be GA if you squint hard enough. For example, I like Buckton Castle; there's only so much that can be said on the subject and I'd like to see it reach GA (although I have editted it a hell of a lot). I think Greater Manchester isn't actually too far off. Also a couple of metropolitan boroughs are shaping up nicely, including Bury. Nev1 (talk) 03:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

It has been suggested to me that Kersal Moor could be a candidate but it needs some work on the references using cite templates which I've not got round to yet. I've also done some work expanding the River Irwell article and it's just been given a B rating by the UK waterways wikiproject. Personally I think the Irwell is very important to the project as it was the main power source for the industrial revolution. Could someone re-rate both the articles for this project as they are both start class at the moment? Richerman (talk) 10:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll re-rate if nobody else has done! No problem!... I think with our 16 FA/FLs we're still the leading local WikiProject of the UK! I was thinking only the other night that with so many of our objectives now completed and striken, we might want to set ourselves some new goals?? The slightly diminishing set of GAs also prompts me to identify some GA candidates (including Kersal Moor!). I'm also working on Salford and Middleton at the moment when time and source material permits; I am hoping these can be GAs at somepoint down the line. What do people think?

On another note, I'm conscious that our list of participants might include some folk who have left the project. We might want to do a roll call to see how our team lies? I'm sure that many don't have the project on their watch list too. -- Jza84 · (talk) 11:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm still in but I often don't find much time for Wikipedia because I'm in full time education.

—PolishName 17:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Still here too. Unfortunately, I dont get much time to edit these days :( Pit-yacker (talk) 11:57, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Have just joined ~ I thought I might as well, as I've been lurking around doing bits and pieces recently :) (despite my lack of local-ness!). I've just reserved a couple of useful-looking books at Brighton Library, to be picked up on Saturday; hopefully there will be plenty of article-enhancing info in them. Hassocks5489 (talk) 13:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Tallest buildings in Salford?

Hello team,

Hot on the trail of our latest FA/FL, the List of tallest buildings and structures in Manchester, I've started work on a simillar list for Salford in User:Jza84/Sandbox2.

Input and contribution from other users is more than welcome in my sandbox, before we take it live! Sources are found at Skyscrapernews and Emporis.

My sandbox may have stuff lifted directly from the Manchester list. It is still a draft article :D -- Jza84 · (talk) 01:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

List of tallest buildings and structures in Salford is now at FLC! -- Jza84 · (talk) 01:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Population changes

Does anyone know (preferably with a source) why Greater Manchester's population has declined since the 1971 census? Suggestions are good too. Nev1 (talk) 20:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Based on Image:Greater_Manchester_Demography.png, it looks like its because of Manchester and Salford's overall effect on the county. Of course these two had their slum clearances around this time. Might be that? -- Jza84 · (talk) 21:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Possibly, but it's not just Manchester and Salford, I think the other boroughs follow the same trend. Nev1 (talk) 21:30, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The consensus seems to be that people followed employment opportunities, so as Manchester's industries closed down, people left. "There has been significant economic and population decline over many decades and people have followed employment opportunities to other locations in the conurbation, taking advantage of a greater choice in the type and lcation of housing. Each of the post war decades witnessed population decline in Manchester and Salford of over 10 per cent, far greater than the rate of decline within the North West as a whole. It is only in the past decade that this decline has slowed, although it is still a significant issue." [1] --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:17, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Good source. I've borrowed that for Salford's page! Thanks. -- Jza84 · (talk) 01:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

It's also something to do with both building density dropping, and extra commuting availability. This effect isn't uncommon across all the major conurbations and large cities in England - indeed it's quite rare to find one that's actually grown since the 1971 census. Fingerpuppet (talk) 20:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

This may be of interest - read section 1 http://pathetic.org.uk/unbuilt/m67_manchester_to_sheffield_motorway/ Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Salford

Just a note that this article is shaping up nicely (though is far from any kind of award status). If there is anybody out there with a little time at the weekend it might be one to start tackling more seriously as a potential B class article! Thanks guys!... (don't forget the Salford skyscraper list too!)... -- Jza84 · (talk) 01:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

List of tallest buildings and structures in Salford is now live! Had to post this a little prematurely because of the licencing of a picture used. Input and editting welcome of course! -- Jza84 · (talk) 16:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you want me to try and blitz through the missing refs and convert the weblinks to inline citations? _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 16:29, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Sure! I meant to do it, but wanted to upload the picture. Plus, the categories were pointing to my sandbox! The lead might need some more citation to tighten it up, then I see no reason why not to try for FL! - it's the same format as the Manchester list, just not as pretty content... -- Jza84 · (talk) 16:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, refs are done now. I think there are enough refs in the lead but maybe a FLC would decide! _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 17:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to see an image of Salford Cathedral in there (in the timeline section), but other than that, I see no reason why we can't try for FLC. -- Jza84 · (talk) 21:45, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

If there isn't one available I'll nip at one lunch time and take one as soon as we have a bit of sunshine! Richerman (talk) 22:43, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

We'll be waiting till summer then! I had a look for a picture of Salford Cathedral a week or so ago but couldn't find one. It's odd that we don't have a picture. Nev1 (talk) 23:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh ye of little faith. The sun was out today - even in Salford! But I don't think we'll see much more of it this week. Anyway, soon it will be summer with long hot days, ice creams, hosepipe bans.................... Richerman (talk) 23:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

List of people from Manchester

Is the recent addition of Ronald Pickford a bit of vandalism or maybe self promotion? A google search doesn't find anyone of that name. Richerman (talk) 23:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks like it, he doesn't seem to understand what music is either. Nev1 (talk) 23:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, didn't notice that looking at the diff - I think I'll remove it. On another point, is there any need to put references in these lists for subjects that already have an article with references. I would think they're only needed for those that don't have an article of their own. Richerman (talk) 23:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

(After edit conflict) Well, a Ron Pickford was involved in the Harold Shipman case, albeit tangentially. From memory, he was one of the two people who found Shipman's last victim, Kathleen Grundy (the former mayoress of Hyde), dead at her home. Shipman forged her will, which led to him being put under suspicion. He was called at the trial; see here. There may be more info on my book about the case, but it doesn't have an index (grrrrr). Anyway, it's a very tenuous link, so probably should be removed! Hassocks5489 (talk) 23:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, but the Ron Pickford in question claims to be notable for being an amateur artist, just not notable enough. The entry's been removed by Richerman anyway. Nev1 (talk) 23:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see — I didn't look at the article to see exactly what was written (I was rushing to finish on the computer and get to bed!). Looks like a coincidence. Hassocks5489 (talk) 08:42, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I see Ronald pickup has been put back on by the same user. Can someone else have a look? I don't want to get into an edit war and it does seem to be this user's first contribution so I don't want to jump on them too hard. Richerman (talk) 11:43, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The Ronald Pickford article itself has now been speedily deleted, so I'd interpret any continuing attempt to add him to the article as justifying a gentle warning. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 12:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Greater Manchester

I have made a start on improving the Greater Manchester article as it is like the article for this whole project. The economy section is looking better now after I moved the Industrial Revolution section to the top so it forms a sort of history. I also removed some trivia and some category links from the settlements section. Expanded and rewrote the Transport section (not done yet though). Moved the Sports venues from Places of interest to the Sport section and removed all the sub-headings in the Sport section. Some may think it was better with headings but many of the sections were stubby and it was making the table of contents too large. I think the Sport section is a little excessive so some of the less important facts should be taken out. I also borrowed some text from the Manchester article for the climate section as they use the same weather station so I just changed it to fit with the county. Also merged everything in the geography section by removing sub-headings and reordering. I hope this will spur people on to start making bolder edits on the article to push it up to GA standard. _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 05:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Update Greater Manchester is now a Good Article candidate! I think thats what will push everyone to edit fast and improve our most important article. It will probably take quite a while for someone to pick it up and review so until then I hope lots of you will try and improve the article any way you see fit, especially copyediting. _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 07:33, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I've put in a few refs and undertaken some modest copyediting. While trawling for sources, I found this interesting document from www.manchester.gov.uk. Hassocks5489 (talk) 13:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Woah, I've just re-read that whole page. Simply outstanding, good job all of you! Rudget. 21:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

THe current backlog on WP:GAC does not seem to be moving much so I dropped a request to a friend, admin User:Dihydrogen Monoxide. He's a great reviewer and said he will review it as soon as he has the time so within the next couple of days hopefully. ^┌_Joshii^┐_└^chat_┘ 18:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

You think this is slow? It took 47 days for Trafford to get picked up at GAC, the backlog is pretty serious. Nev1 (talk) 23:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

It is. I've had to help out by clearing some of the backlog preventing Middlewich from getting a GA review (can't review it myself, because I helped work on it), now been waiting for a month. Why don't we all help out? It's hardly fair to keep putting articles up for review if we don't reciprocate. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

H₂0 has passed it (after some mods, naturally). Well done. Mr Stephen (talk) 00:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Huzzah! Nev1 (talk) 01:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Fantastic work! I never thought I'd see the day!! Well done everyone!

Now that we've achieved pretty much all of our short term aims (bar one - which I'm helping towards), would anybody like to suggest some new aims? -- Jza84 · (talk) 01:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Discovering Manchester

When looking for some material about Salford's tower blocks, I came across this - a preview version of Discovering Manchester - A walking guide to Manchester and Salford. It's got some interesting bits in it we could easily use. -- Jza84 · (talk) 14:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Hands up all those who felt the earthquake?

It was a belter. Certainly the strongest I've ever felt in the UK. I kinda enjoyed it really (yeah, I know I'm weird) which can't be said for the dog though! --WebHamster 02:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Yep, it was really strong. The whole house was shaking quite violently for about 3 seconds. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 02:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Me too! I live next to woodland and thought a tree had crashed down! It was pretty big - larger than thouse a couple of years back. -- Jza84 · (talk) 02:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Apparently it was a 5.1 centred near Grimsby --WebHamster 02:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Didn't feel a thing, fortunately. Rudget. 20:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I felt it. Next question: who thought they'd broken wikipedia :P Nev1 (talk) 02:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Our ferrets seemed to know that there was something afoot, as they woke up and came to warn us, just before it happened. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 02:51, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Now come on Hammy, it was centred on Market Rasen - this is an encyclopaedia and accuracy is important :-) Actually I had four pints of Holts last night and didn't feel a thing, I feel quite cheated - damn you Joey Holt! I can see I'll have to get some of those guard ferrets to warn me next time. What's that Skip, Bruce has fallen in the bilabong? Richerman (talk) 09:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Alas I apologise, I can only blame the BBC whose early reports of the epicentre and strength were wrong. As you say, it was Market Rasen and a 5.3. Coincidentally though, Market Rasen is surprisingly near to Grimsby :P --WebHamster 10:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It's 20 long and lonely miles. Probably not far enough for the people of Market Rasen. Richerman (talk) 11:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Not the slightest trace of it down here in Sunny Sussex By The Sea®™ ... boo — I'm quite disappointed! Hassocks5489 (talk) 12:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah good, you'll be able to contribute to the earthquake appeal when we get it going then. Richerman (talk) 12:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

In fact I think I'll start the appeal myself. I'm going to base it on this one that went out after the 2002 quake. Richerman (talk) 13:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

We're going to need it - the quake is set to cost millions ([2])! -- Jza84 · (talk) 14:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I live in Urmston and I felt it. The entire house moving back and forth, doors rattling, shelves wobbling. It was a bit scary, went on for about 10 seconds. No cracks in the plaster so it looks like my house is well built (1910) but then again I do live near the Manchester-Liverpool line so I guess the house is used to the vibration! Have you seen the latest photograph of the damage? http://www2.b3ta.com/host/creative/13/1204118301/etchasketchquake.jpg Parrot of Doom (talk) 15:28, 27 February 2008 (UTC) :D

LMAO PMSL :D --WebHamster 20:39, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The quake woke me up! It then knocked over a neatly stacked pile of change then stopped. Shortly after I looked out the window to see people in the street screaming "What the 'ell were that!". The MEN reported in today's second edition that the only damage in Greater Manchester was a chimney falling over in a set of flats in Reddish! _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 21:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

SELNEC

Does anybody have or is able to point to a (free to use) image of something (buses, station, branding) frm the SELNEC days? I'd like to add something to the Greater Manchester and GMPTE articles, but I'm struggling for an image. -- Jza84 · (talk) 22:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, for those of use who use the 300px default image size, the Greater Manchester article is going to be seriously cluttered with images. It needs to be accessible to all. _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 23:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

No more cluttered that Manchester though, surely? -- Jza84 · (talk) 23:08, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Manchester has bigger sections of text and does not push down any images like your precious COA does. _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 23:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Hang on, "precious" COA? Please, let's try to behave "civilly" towards each other. ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Me and Jza84 have a "bond" outside of Wiki, he knows I love him really. ;-) _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 23:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

That's OK then, you have at him as you will. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:43, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

(!) -- Jza84 · (talk) 00:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Why the exclamation? _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 00:16, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to mention, I just added an infobox to Manchester Cathedral with a new photo I took today, unfortunately some bright spark put a lampost in my way but oh well at least it shows more than the aerial shot. Anyway there are lots of empty fields in the infobox, especially relating to architecture so if anybody knows any more about it please add! _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 00:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I preferred the old picture. It felt less ambiguous. Nev1 (talk) 03:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Lamposts and street signs are a pain when you're trying to photograph buildings, they're bloody everywhere! And without wishing to sound churlish, isn't it possible to get a picture of the cathedral without chopping the top off the tower? Richerman (talk) 13:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem with the old image was that it has too much going on around it and it was hard to make out in thumbnail view. I have just uploaded another pic Image:Manchester Cathedral Front Entrance.JPG which has the whole tower in but not the full length of the building, switch them if you like the newer one better. I can't believe the one day I don't go to Manchester the queen pulls up on her train! Still she probably ground Victoria to a halt and half of Manchester has been closed so her and Phil can have a nosey around at our great city so best I didn't go! _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 13:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Phil had probably came to try out his new hoodie jacket, I wondered what he wanted it for. The new image was much better, I've switched it. Richerman (talk) 16:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Greeted apparently by Manchester's very own Lord-Leiutenant...[3] -- Jza84 · (talk) 16:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I decided to go into the city afterall. Pointless as there was no sign of any royals :-(. There was quite a few police officers in Victoria. I liked the comment on the MEN article about the council bothering to clean the streets when the Queen comes, the city can be a right mess especially early monday morning and I am sick of tramps opening the bins on Oxford Street and leaving the doors swinging around! _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 17:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Main page

A Greater Manchester related page is featured on the main page! Only the M62 motorway, I hope Manchester is featured soon but I have a feeling it will take a long time unless we come up with a significant date. _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 01:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

List of tallest buildings and structures in Salford

I've added an image of salford Cathedral to the "timeline" section but ts added quite a lot of white space. Could somebody fix it? Moving the portal box might do it but I'm not sure where else it should go. Richerman (talk) 12:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I've moved it under the "External Links" heading: I've seen portal boxes under that heading quite often in the past. Hassocks5489 (talk) 12:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

That looks much better, thanks Richerman (talk) 12:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Stockport photographs needed?

Hi everyone. I'm going into Stockport in Saturday and I'm happy to take some photographs of the town whilst I'm there. Is there anywhere/place in particular which could do with a photo(s)? —PolishName 21:06, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I think any of the Grade I or Grade II* listed buildings in Stockport would be good. Some already have photos, so it'll be worth checking which ones do; the Grade II* list isn't finished yet, but the ones not on the list can be found here. Photos of Grade II* listed buildings probably won't have an article to go straight into, but the aim is for every Grade II* LB to have at least its own stub. Nev1 (talk) 21:35, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking at Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Greater Manchester there is at least Staircase House. However, that probably comes under grade II* listed buildings. Pit-yacker (talk) 21:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec, was watching TV) Off the top of my head. The motorway cutting at Tiviot Dale has one of the few decent exposures of the underlying sandstone (it goes down hundreds of feet), we could do with a shot of that. Just round the corner from there is the confluence of the Tame and Goyt to form the Mersey - good for four articles at least! - there isn't a pretty shot, but do your best. Perhaps one of the 'black and whites' - the Three Shires and the Nat West - would brighten the article. The picture of the town hall (here) looks washed out to me, can we do any better? Likewise, the viaduct could do with a decent shot; the classic view is here, but don't bother trying to reproduce it, there are loads of young trees where the photographer stood (been there, tried that). There might be a shot from the far end on the other side from the car park between Decathlon and the railway (entered from Wellington Road, but I'm not sure if it's accessible). Stockport was the prototype Lancashire cotton town - really - so a good old mill has some encyclopedic vale. Wellington Mill (Hatworks) is fairly old, but I think Wear Mill (under the viaduct) has more to say. The churches: St Mary's, St Thomas', St George's. As always, keep the megapixels up, straighten those paralaxes, keep the sun shining, etc, etc. Good shooting. Mr Stephen (talk) 22:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks; I'll do my best!—PolishName 10:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to request that the images be added to the "Category:Stockport" at WikiCommons, where, there are images such as this being unused. This gentleman at Flickr has released most of his work under a compatable Creative Commons licence for use here too!

If at all possible (and if you want my personal opinion!), it would be nice to get an image of Stockport's townscape, comparable to something like that in the infoboxes of Barnsley or Audenshaw. -- Jza84 · (talk) 21:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It would be great if we could get photograph like the ones in Barnsley and Audenshaw, but do you know anywhere where I could get a view of the town from that hight? —PolishName 12:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure really, as I'm not local. I'm guessing Lancashire Hill Flats, or a high-rise in Manchester? Failing that, I'm not sure what shots you can achieve of Stockport from somewhere like Werneth Low?? It's not urgent, or even necessary, just a suggestion. :) -- Jza84 · (talk) 22:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Werneth Low does give a rather good panoramic view of Stockport. I have quite a few slides of sunsets over the town from there. Unfortunately they aren't in digital form, they're on Kodachrome 64 and boxed away. When I get a min I'll have a dig around and see if any are suitable for digitising. --WebHamster 22:19, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Ooo Baby Baby

The Manchester baby is 60 years old this year. According to the talk page it's in our court. I think it would be a shoo-in for the front page on 21 June if we can get it up to FA. Is there any enthusiasm here? I'm sure some of us have access to the various university libraries, if not the computing department itself (whatever it's called now ...). Mr Stephen (talk) 11:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'd definitely be up for that. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 12:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It's now the School of Computer Science at http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/. As a member of staff at Salford Uni I have access to the library, but I don't really know much about computer science I'm afraid. Richerman (talk) 12:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm certain that between us we know enough about computer science to get this through FA in time for the anniversary. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm studying a computer science related subject at uni, mainly software but we cover data processing etc so I will try to help how I can! _└^and-rew_┘^┌_talk^┐ 22:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I've just been trying to find a copy of the article I wrote on interfacing a sound chip to the first (and only) computer I built, must be 30 years or so ago now. So I'm sure that between us we can whack this article into shape well before the anniversary. Particularly as you'll obviously have access to the university library. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks good then. I don't think we need to know that much computer science to be honest (but it won't hurt). Mr Stephen (talk) 15:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Castles

I have created a new section in List of castles in England for Greater Manchester and moved into it the castles in GM which I could find which were languishing in Cheshire and Lancashire. Could this be checked for accuracy and completeness - and maybe some gaps could be filled. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 13:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)