Talk:2013 Glasgow helicopter crash/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Image

Another view of the Clutha nightclub here (from 2010); higher res than the current one in the article, and shows the club sign more clearly. postdlf (talk) 17:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for this, I've added both pictures for the moment, I think it looks ok, 100px wide might be on the small side but we'll see what people think. --_nonsense ferret 20:51, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Cause of the accident

I'd be careful about that if I were you: an air accident investigator interviewed on the BBC expressed concern with the state of the tail rotor, which should not have been missing vanes or its housing to the extent it was. Equally, the EASA also issued an airworthiness advice in September 2012 concerning stiffness in the pitch mechanism of the blades which the Guardian does not mention: the Independent's page is fuller. Until an authoritative cause is announced, therefore, the inclusion of any comment on previous airworthiness must be seen in this context as somewhat contentious, although it may be included in the meme for the model itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.121.174.34 (talk) 00:35, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, we have to stick to 'not determined' until there is an official report. Pointless to speculate, and this talk-page isn't the place for it as noted above --_nonsense ferret 00:40, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Number of fatalities

There is some mentions about a possible ninth fatality, but I've had to revert as currently unsourced - can anyone see an official confirmation? --_nonsense ferret 00:40, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Ok, this will do for me - [1] I'll amend the article again and include the reference --_nonsense ferret 00:46, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Reference to grounding

The article currently states "This type of helicopter was grounded for a time in 2012 because of safety concerns.[18]", which isn't strictly accurate. If you follow the reference, while the Guardian article does call it a grounding, the text actually says Bond elected not to fly their fleet, but no grounding order was issued by either manufacturer (Eurocopter) or airworthiness authorities (EASA). EASA mandated an enhanced inspection regime in an Emergency Airworthiness Directive, but that specifically allowed flying to continue. 'Grounding' implies a level of official intervention that the issue wasn't seen as needing by EASA and other, non-Bond, EC-135s may have continued to fly. See http://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/easa_ad_2012_0085_R5.pdf/AD_2012-0085R5_1 for the current form of the airworthiness directive82.45.86.157 (talk) 11:21, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Reaction

Are we overdoing it a bit here with all the quotes from politicians, not sure this adds much. --_nonsense ferret 19:20, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I think those we have now are relevant. I've just updated some of the earlier stuff grabbed from twitter, shortened some and merged paragraphs. A paragraph for each quote made it look a bit excessive. Hopefully looks better now. Paul MacDermott (talk) 20:32, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Looks better, thanks. --_nonsense ferret 20:41, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

No probs. I've added one more quote from the Queen, but think we have all we need now. Paul MacDermott (talk) 20:57, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we wouldn't want excessive quotes from politicians here. Also, as a reminder, anything concerning living people has to be properly sourced; WP:BLPSOURCES prohibits tabloid journalism for this area. --John (talk) 11:50, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Trimmed it down, but feel free to remove more if necessary. I'm not convinced we need quotes from Davidson and Miliband, but I'll leave them in for now. I've also added some other reaction, such as the minute's silence held by football clubs, the Mass at St Andrew's Cathedral, and so on. Paul MacDermott (talk) 14:02, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I've trimmed it further. We don't need to quote their bland condolences. It would be more noteworthy if they hadn't produced some soundbites. --John (talk) 20:16, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
  - Looks better, though I think we should re-add yesterday's Cathedral service. Originally it was referenced from the Evening Standard, but I'll look for a better source. Paul MacDermott (talk) 13:02, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
    - Found source from The Guardian. Paul MacDermott (talk) 13:14, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

The last paragraph starts: "Jim Murphy, a Labour Party MP, reported seeing ... " Why is there the need to mention that he is a Labour MP? How about just say that he is a local or Glasgow MP? And no, I will not make the edit myself because I do not want to get involved in endless reverts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.234.255.2 (talk) 03:52, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I think it is notable that he is a shadow secretary of state, so not just an MP but a really well known spokesman. Someone deleted that though. I think the fact he is a local MP is worth mentioning. Ultimately though we link to his page so all that information is merely a click away. --_nonsense ferret 03:58, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Criticism of emergency services

I have also reverted an addition to the article about this as it was unsourced, but even if there is a source, I think we may have to think about what is included because we have not yet taken account of the widespread praise for their response (see for example In praise of...) I think if we include comment it will have to balance these viewpoints --_nonsense ferret 00:40, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

BBC and Sky News broadcasts c midnight 1-2.12.13 make two families' reactions headlines, as the police have not discussed with them whether their missing have been found yet or not, 48 hours in. Their accusation is the Police prefer to preserve the evidence (ie their chopper) to locating the missing, who may not yet be dead.

You might also add the fundraiser that's getting started https://www.facebook.com/events/717458218265401/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.121.174.34 (talk) 00:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I think we can only include details of a fundraiser if we can find a reliable source which comments on it - BBC News/ITV etc --_nonsense ferret 01:47, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I've copied the preceding comment from my talkpage for further discussion here --_nonsense ferret 01:47, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we can add details of this as soon as a few news outlets pick it up. Paul MacDermott (talk) 13:18, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Conflict of interest editing

At least one editor seems to have a conflict of interest in editing this page, having only made edits to Eurocopter on wikipedia.Martin451 15:45, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I've advised him to come and discuss the issues here and not to edit war. Mjroots (talk) 17:46, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Article feedback - Clutha meaning

I've reviewed feedback, a reader was curious to know what Clutha means. It's Scottish Gaelic for Clyde and I've got a reliable source to confirm this, but I can't see an appropriate place to put this into the article. I've left the source formatted, ready to go plus a bit of text, if anybody wants to have a go, feel free to copy and paste this into the article. Nick (talk) 02:36, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

(Clutha is Scottish Gaelic for Clyde).<ref name='Indy03-12'/> {{cite news | first = Thair | last = Shaikh | coauthors = Paul Kelbie, Ian Johnston | title = Four of the eight people killed in Glasgow Clutha Vaults pub helicopter crash are named | date = 1 December 2013 | url = http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/major-rescue-operation-under-way-after-police-helicopter-crashes-into-packed-clutha-vaults-pub-in-glasgow-8974061.html | work = [[The Independent]] | accessdate = 3 December 2013 | quote = The Clutha – the name means “Clyde” in Gaelic }}</ref>

Nice one, I added this. --John (talk) 07:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

The building

Most reports are saying that the building is single-storey, but some are stating that there are at least three levels. One however is stating that the building is single-storey with three separate roof structures. I note that survivors have stated that the band and audience had time to joke about having brought the roof down, which suggests that the building is multi-storey, but does anyone know for sure? YSSYguy (talk) 04:40, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

it was a tenement but there was a fire in the 60s destroying the upper floors. --_nonsense ferret 04:43, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

2012 Grounding

how relevant is the 2012 grounding to this incident? The cause doesn't seem related. Perhaops the text should go instead on the article about the type of helicopter? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:57, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking that myself. At this moment in time, it does seem inappropriate, because it might lead readers to think there is a connection. Nick Cooper (talk) 21:34, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Any connection is clearly ruled out by the accident report so perhaps we can add that there is no connection to make this 100 percent clear and remove any unnecessary detail. I do wonder if it might be pertinent that, if I remember correctly from looking at the sources, this is the third scottish police helicopter involved in an 'incident', and I think there only were three such helicopters. --_nonsense ferret 22:34, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

ITN

Absurd this isn't yet on wikipedia in the news. Still front page news on all national newspapers/networks, 20000 views of this page, a great article, and even the queen and the pope have seen fit to take time out of their day. I don't understand, can anyone explain? --_nonsense ferret 12:00, 3 December 2013 (UTC) #

this was also suggested in page feedback by 'liz' --_nonsense ferret 12:11, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

@Nonsenseferret: It's not of international significance. Future suggestions for ITN coverage would better be made at Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates rather than the talk page of the article concerned. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:01, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Point noted, but there was coverage in news media across the globe though? What is the test for 'international significance' if not that? --_nonsense ferret 22:35, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Actually, this article was submitted to ITN and got enough support to be promoted, but didn't subsequently appear in the section. Possibly that may be because of the aviation incident in Mozambique that occurred on the same day. There was also some discussion about an entry mentioning both, but that never came to fruition either. Paul MacDermott (talk) 11:30, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

No of serious injuries

article says both 11 and 14 - can we find some consensus in the sources? --_nonsense ferret 17:05, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

The interim AAIB report says 6 fatal and 12 serious, since then we can presume that one of the serious has sadly died which would give 7 fatal and 11 serious. MilborneOne (talk) 19:03, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

It also needs to be made clear that 6 died in the pub at the time, with the seventh dying in hospital two weeks later. Mjroots (talk) 20:37, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Agree it should be made clear in the article. MilborneOne (talk) 20:48, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Trouble archiving links on the article

Hello. I am finding myself repeatedly archiving links on this page. This usually happens when the archive doesn't recognize the archive to be good.

This could be because the link is either a redirect, or I am unknowingly archiving a dead link. Please check the following links to see if it's redirecting, or in anyway bad, and fix them, if possible.

In any event this will be the only notification in regards to these links, and I will discontinue my attempts to archive these pages.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 14:31, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

TheAAIB weblinks have all changed. https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/s9-2013-eurocopter-ec135-t2-g-spao-29-november-2013 is correct. Mjroots (talk) 18:04, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Final report

The AAIBs final report into the accident will be published tomorrow. Possibly live at midnight on the AAIB website if past practice is anything to go by. Mjroots (talk) 18:04, 22 October 2015 (UTC)